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Thread: The Trinity Discussion

  1. #721
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    How can Jesus be begotten of the Father and yet not be of the same nature as the Father i.e. God?
    Yes.

    Begotten,not created.

    A statue is created,a son is begotten.

    But Jesus,begotten of the father,has no beginning,as does the Father.
    kaylagrl likes this.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    In the same way that both predestination and free will are truths, Jesus is God and also the son of God. What matters is to obey them.
    Yes sir...well ssid

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by garee View Post
    God is not a man (father and Son) as us. Two attributes not two actual persons of the same one Spirit working together in perfect harmony and submission to one another brining the peace of God that surpasses all human logic .You could call it the dynamic duel.... some call it the trinity
    Jesus is both God and man. Still is.


    In rev 5 we see it is his manhood alone as qualifier to open the scroll,loose it's seal.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    Interesting reaction to 7 Bible verses.
    I was thinking the same thing.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by gdyloves View Post
    Well bluto I guess we differ in opinions, and that's ok.

    But let me ask you something. When Jesus was on the cross and yelled out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? " who was he talking to?
    No gdyloves, it's not ok that we have a difference of opinion. These issues have to be resolved otherwise were just waisting each others time by continuing on to the next unresolved question you might have like here for example when you ask about "My God, my God."

    It was also you who said to take one thing at a time and that is what I intend to do with the issue of "begotten." So why is Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God according to John 3:16? Most people including the Jehovah Witnesses think that begotten means that Jesus is a created being or He had a beginning.

    Actually there are two defintions in play here according to the Greek word "monogenes/begotten." The first definition pertains to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship. For example at Hebrews 11:17, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promise was offering up HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON." Well, the thing is that Abraham had more than one son, which means Isaac was the ONLY SON he had by Sarah and the ONLY SON of the covenant that God made with him.

    The other definition pertains to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind. This is the meaning in which John 3:16 applies. As well as at John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:18 or 1 John 4:9. The point the Apostle John was making is to highlight that Jesus Christ is the uniquely God's son-sharing the same divine nature as God and as oppose to believers who are not God's sons and daughters since we are "ADOPTED" sons and daughters according to Ephesians 1:5.

    The bottom line is the fact that we are not procreated by God, we are procreated by our parents. This is also why I gave you the example that you share the same exac t nature as your parents and Jesus Christ has two natures, one from His mothers side and one from His Father's side who is of course Deity/God. This is how God chose to do things and this does not mean Jesus Christ had a beginning, no, He always existed, period.

    This is also why I gave you Revelation 3:14 which says, "The Amen and the faithful and true Witness, the "BEGINNING" of the creation of God, says this." Jw's latch on to this verse as well as unitarians and christadelphians to prove that Jesus Christ was a created being.

    If they would do a word study, especially the word "beginning" in the verse they will discover that the Greek word for beginning is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that Greek word. So the verse is saying that Jesus is the creator, planner, or the orgin of creation. This is backed up some of the verse you quoted like at Colossians 2:16, John 1:3 and many others that show by Hin/Jesus all things have been created. Does this make sense to you gdyloves? I will address Matthew 27:46 for you a soon.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    bluto

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    In Genesis God said "let US make man,in our own image" who was He talking to?

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    No gdyloves, it's not ok that we have a difference of opinion. These issues have to be resolved otherwise were just waisting each others time by continuing on to the next unresolved question you might have like here for example when you ask about "My God, my God."

    It was also you who said to take one thing at a time and that is what I intend to do with the issue of "begotten." So why is Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God according to John 3:16? Most people including the Jehovah Witnesses think that begotten means that Jesus is a created being or He had a beginning.

    Actually there are two defintions in play here according to the Greek word "monogenes/begotten." The first definition pertains to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship. For example at Hebrews 11:17, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promise was offering up HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON." Well, the thing is that Abraham had more than one son, which means Isaac was the ONLY SON he had by Sarah and the ONLY SON of the covenant that God made with him.

    The other definition pertains to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind. This is the meaning in which John 3:16 applies. As well as at John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:18 or 1 John 4:9. The point the Apostle John was making is to highlight that Jesus Christ is the uniquely God's son-sharing the same divine nature as God and as oppose to believers who are not God's sons and daughters since we are "ADOPTED" sons and daughters according to Ephesians 1:5.

    The bottom line is the fact that we are not procreated by God, we are procreated by our parents. This is also why I gave you the example that you share the same exac t nature as your parents and Jesus Christ has two natures, one from His mothers side and one from His Father's side who is of course Deity/God. This is how God chose to do things and this does not mean Jesus Christ had a beginning, no, He always existed, period.

    This is also why I gave you Revelation 3:14 which says, "The Amen and the faithful and true Witness, the "BEGINNING" of the creation of God, says this." Jw's latch on to this verse as well as unitarians and christadelphians to prove that Jesus Christ was a created being.

    If they would do a word study, especially the word "beginning" in the verse they will discover that the Greek word for beginning is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that Greek word. So the verse is saying that Jesus is the creator, planner, or the orgin of creation. This is backed up some of the verse you quoted like at Colossians 2:16, John 1:3 and many others that show by Hin/Jesus all things have been created. Does this make sense to you gdyloves? I will address Matthew 27:46 for you a soon.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    bluto
    Amazing how we agree on this doctrine and are at odds in eschatology.

    Heart of David. (Popeye)
    Bless you bro

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    John 10

    Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;no one will snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.30 I and the Father are one.
    31
    Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”


    33
    “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”



    Matthew 26


    62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.
    The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God:Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
    64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]
    65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”
    “He is worthy of death,” they answered.

    Jesus answer to the Sanhedrin was a reference to OT verses in Psalms and Daniel. Why did they say He blasphemed? Because He was claiming to be God. The Jews knew the OT and knew what Jesus was claiming. When Jesus was born He was called Emmanuel,which means "God is with us",He was called "Mighty God"in Isiah.

    Colossians says ...5 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

    2:9-For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.


    John 8


    52 At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed!Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
    54 Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55 Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
    58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.


    Why were they going to stone Jesus? Because He claimed to be "I AM", and to a Jew that was blasphemy.They understood what I AM meant,Jesus was claiming to be God. And that was reason to stone Him. Anyone who understands the Bible knows Jesus is God.


  9. #729
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by gdyloves View Post
    When Jesus was on the cross and yelled out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? " who was he talking to?
    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    To Father.

    Also, He was quoting Psalm and so saying He is a Messiah.
    Also, Jesus told His followers many times that He only said and did the things His Father had given Him to say and to do, and He said and did them for our benefit



    kaylagrl likes this.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    WATCHTOWER DOCTRINE BIG TIME.
    You make me laugh. LOL

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Also, Jesus told His followers many times that He only said and did the things His Father had given Him to say and to do, and He said and did them for our benefit



    Now this I do accept, as you stated.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    In Genesis God said "let US make man,in our own image" who was He talking to?
    Based on what many have posted on here, he was talking to himself, surely not.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagallen View Post
    Based on what many have posted on here, he was talking to himself, surely not.

    No,He was not speaking to Himself,thats for certain.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post

    No,He was not speaking to Himself,thats for certain.
    I agree, he wasn't speaking to himself, so the question remains, who was he talking to ? Clearly God has the power to create, so I would say, God spoke his word and who ever he spoke to, was obedient and created what was spoken unto him.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    Amazing how we agree on this doctrine and are at odds in eschatology.

    Heart of David. (Popeye)
    Bless you bro
    Lol, were fortunate that are salvation is not based on when Jesus Christ is coming back for His church. Of course if it was then I would be right in my position. Just messing with you. Keep up the good worl.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    bluto

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    So boring, so impossible. Why do I bother.
    Yes, why bother with Scripture if it disagrees with you lol

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MattforJesus View Post
    It throws some people off when people say that Jesus is God,for they will say how can that be when God is an omnipresent Spirit,and flesh is not part of His essence.

    1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    But the Bible says that no person has ever seen Jesus,and no person will ever see Jesus,because He is an invisible Spirit,that showed a visible manifestation of Himself.

    Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Jesus cannot be a created God,for there was no God formed after God,and there is no such thing as deity apart from God,or a created God,for all things are made of physical matter.

    Jesus has to be the one true God.

    Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
    Isa 59:12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
    Isa 59:13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
    Isa 59:14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
    Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
    Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
    Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
    Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
    Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

    Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.
    Isa 35:5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
    Isa 35:6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

    It will be God Himself that will save His people from their sins.

    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Isa 52:5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
    Isa 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
    Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    The Son,the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God.

    Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

    Jesus is God Himself showing a visible manifestation of Himself,and laid down His human life for the saints,and purchased the Church with His own blood.

    Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.

    Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

    God manifest in the flesh means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.

    The Son does not have His own personal Spirit that moves around with Him,for there cannot be a spot void of the Spirit,and a double portion in another spot,but He walks through the Spirit,and where ever He is at the Spirit is there,the same as the saints.

    There is only one throne in heaven,and one who sits on it,and it is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus,and God's visible relationship to the saints for all eternity.

    1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    God's right hand represents power,wisdom,and salvation.The man Christ Jesus is our Savior,no man is sinless so God manifest Himself in the flesh,and God exalted the man Christ Jesus to exercise the throne of power,be at His right hand,until His enemies are conquered,then when they are conquered,the Son shall stop exercising the throne of power,not be at right hand,that God may be all in all.

    God is ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints.

    Jesus is God,and the only way we can see the invisible God,and the way He reconciled the world unto Himself,and His visible relationship to the saints.

    That is why people that deny the Son,deny the Father,for Jesus is God Himself.
    In rev 5,the son takes the scroll from the father. That PROVES they are 2separate beings

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    No gdyloves, it's not ok that we have a difference of opinion. These issues have to be resolved otherwise were just waisting each others time by continuing on to the next unresolved question you might have like here for example when you ask about "My God, my God."

    It was also you who said to take one thing at a time and that is what I intend to do with the issue of "begotten." So why is Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God according to John 3:16? Most people including the Jehovah Witnesses think that begotten means that Jesus is a created being or He had a beginning.

    Actually there are two defintions in play here according to the Greek word "monogenes/begotten." The first definition pertains to being the only one of its kind within a specific relationship. For example at Hebrews 11:17, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promise was offering up HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON." Well, the thing is that Abraham had more than one son, which means Isaac was the ONLY SON he had by Sarah and the ONLY SON of the covenant that God made with him.

    The other definition pertains to being the only one of its kind or class, unique in kind. This is the meaning in which John 3:16 applies. As well as at John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:18 or 1 John 4:9. The point the Apostle John was making is to highlight that Jesus Christ is the uniquely God's son-sharing the same divine nature as God and as oppose to believers who are not God's sons and daughters since we are "ADOPTED" sons and daughters according to Ephesians 1:5.

    The bottom line is the fact that we are not procreated by God, we are procreated by our parents. This is also why I gave you the example that you share the same exac t nature as your parents and Jesus Christ has two natures, one from His mothers side and one from His Father's side who is of course Deity/God. This is how God chose to do things and this does not mean Jesus Christ had a beginning, no, He always existed, period.

    This is also why I gave you Revelation 3:14 which says, "The Amen and the faithful and true Witness, the "BEGINNING" of the creation of God, says this." Jw's latch on to this verse as well as unitarians and christadelphians to prove that Jesus Christ was a created being.

    If they would do a word study, especially the word "beginning" in the verse they will discover that the Greek word for beginning is "arche." We get our English word "architect" from that Greek word. So the verse is saying that Jesus is the creator, planner, or the orgin of creation. This is backed up some of the verse you quoted like at Colossians 2:16, John 1:3 and many others that show by Hin/Jesus all things have been created. Does this make sense to you gdyloves? I will address Matthew 27:46 for you a soon.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    bluto
    Bumped for gdyloves.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagallen View Post
    Based on what many have posted on here, he was talking to himself, surely not.
    you have a strange view of the Triune God

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    In rev 5,the son takes the scroll from the father. That PROVES they are 2separate beings
    No they were separate persona in one Being.

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