The Trinity Discussion

[valiant]

John 16:25 These things have I spoken in proverbs but the time shall come, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs but I shall show you plainly of the Father. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God and me who you have sent. John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished the work which You gave me to do. John 17:5 And now , O Father, glorify me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ( Plainly his Father is the only true God, Jesus is not the Father, it doesn't get any plainer than that. )

Get your quote right, 'you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent'.

Before time began the Son shared the glory of God. It doesn't get any plainer than that. Only God could share the glory of God.

But He humbled Himself and became the God-man Jesus Christ and set aside His glory. And now He would be restored to the glory that had been His, the glory of God.

Thus the Father is not the only true God. He shares the honour with His Son,

 

[trofimus]

John 16:25 These things have I spoken in proverbs but the time shall come, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs but I shall show you plainly of the Father. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God and me who you have sent. John 17:4 I have glorified You on the earth, I have finished the work which You gave me to do. John 17:5 And now , O Father, glorify me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was. ( Plainly his Father is the only true God, Jesus is not the Father, it doesn't get any plainer than that. )

John 1:1 does not prove that Jesus is Father but that Jesus is God.

Simple as that.

For Jesus, Father was His God, for us, both Jesus and Father are God.

 

[Dagallen]

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Next. That was easy.

Only a foolish person would turn a blind eye to John 17:1 through 26 but of course you can't explain John 17:1 through 26 all you can do is avoid what it says. You proved nothing.

 

[bluto]

THANK you, glad to be here.

I don't know why Thomas said that let me reread the passage think about it and then I'll give my thoughts.

The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus cause it was in Their heart to do so. Alot of the things the did and said were Wrong that's why Jesus knocked over the tables

On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations? But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”

18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching. Mark 11:15-18

Now my turn to ask a question.
When a certain ruler came to Jesus and called him good why did Jesus reply
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Ok gdyloves it would be my pleasure to address you question? But first it is true that the Jews had it in their heart to kill Jesus but the question is "why?" Here is what I want you to keep in mind. I just gave you John 5:17,18 where the Jews said that Jesus made Himself out equal with God.

So here's the question? What was it that Jesus said to cause the Jews to accuse Jesus of blasphemy and want to kill Him? Jesus said at John 5:17, "My Father is working until now, and I My self am working." In other words Jesus was claiming that God was His own Father."

Here's another one. John 8:56-59, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Vs58, "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born I am." Look what the Jews say at vs 59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him. " In other words, Jesus is telling them that He existed before Abraham and Jesus saying "I am" is what God said to Moses at Exodus 3:12-15, please read it.

Then there is John 10:30. "I and the Father, we are one." One what gdyloves? They are one in nature or essence. I know this because of the Jews reaction at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Now watch what Jesus says, "I showed you many good works, from the Fther for which of them are you stoning Me?" Vs33, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; AND BECAUSE YOU BEING A MAN, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."

Do you notice a trend in this gdyloves? Remember I said to you, "What did Jesus say to cause the Jews to accuse Jesus of blasphemy and want to kill Him?" I can give you more examples like at John 19:7 or at the trial of Jesus at Matthew 26.

Now to your question? Jesus is telling the man or pointing out to the man that there are some barriers that keep people from becoming followers of Jesus Christ. Look at the context where Jesus points out at Mark 10:19-25 that keeping the commandments is not enough and he tells the man to sell everything he owns. The man was sorrowful and could not do it which means he is really not committed to the things of God.

As far as the "good" part it is not saying nobody is good but rather the focus is on putting God first above all else. Does that make sense to you? Go ahead gdyloves, ask me any question you want.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Dagallen]

John 1:1 does not prove that Jesus is Father but that Jesus is God.

Simple as that.

For Jesus, Father was His God, for us, both Jesus and Father are God.

You are so blind even when scriptures explains it to you, you can't handle the truth, well John 17:1 through 26 explains it plainly but of you avoid what it says. When you can prove Jesus is the Father of himself, then I will believe you but for now I believe what is recorded as the saying of Jesus himself, he spoke it plainly.

 

[trofimus]

Only a foolish person would turn a blind eye to John 17:1 through 26 but of course you can't explain John 17:1 through 26 all you can do is avoid what it says. You proved nothing.

Actually, you proved nothing. We responded to all your attacks.

When I asked you about your view and then posted verses contradicting your view, you run to shadows, questions instead of answers and "I will not explain this to you because you would not understand".

So, who is here who proved nothing? I am afraid it is you and whole your group.

 

[Dagallen]

Actually, you proved nothing. We responded to all your attacks.

When I asked you about your view and then posted verses contradicting your view, you run to shadows, questions instead of answers and "I will not explain this to you because you would not understand".

So, who is here who proved nothing? I am afraid it is you and whole your group.

First I have no group, I simply replied with scriptures that shows you are here to try to destroy anyone who won't support your point of view, you are a cherry picker and yet you throw away the best cherries of all, the saying of Jesus himself. You don't even know what the word proverb means, here let me help you out ? The word proverb means ( to be like ) now what does the word "and "mean ? ( It means in addition to. )

 

[valiant]

First I have no group, I simply replied with scriptures that shows you are here to try to destroy anyone who won't support your point of view, you are a cherry picker and yet you throw away the best cherries of all, the saying of Jesus himself.

you mean these?
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 3:17[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Matt 11:27[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] All things have been delivered to me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; neither does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son wills to reveal [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif].[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 28:19[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Go you therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 5:21-23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son also quickens whom he will. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who sent him. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 8:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 8:58[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 10:27-30[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]them[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]them[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 12:44-45[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And Jesus cried and said, He who believes on me, believes not on me, but on him who sent me. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]And he that sees me sees him who sent me.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 14:7-11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] If you had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip says to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Have I been so long time with you, and do you not know me, Philip? he who has seen me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say to you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me does his works. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 15:23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He who hates me hates my Father also. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 16:14-15[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to you. All things whatever the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he takes of mine, and shall declare [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to you. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 17:4-5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, you glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 20:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Acts 20:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost has made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Tit 2:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]2Pe 1:1[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rev 22:12-13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif](Compare 1.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 1:8-9[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] but of the Son he says,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Your throne, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]O God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. Y[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]ou have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2.8-9 and not after Christ: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] for in Him dwells [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]all the fulness of the Godhead bodily[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif],[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Php 2:5-11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]who,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] being in the form of God,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]even[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted Him, and gave to Him [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]the name which is above every name[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] in heaven and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] on earth and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Lord[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], to the glory of God the Father. [/FONT]

You don't even know what the word proverb means, here let me help you out ? The word proverb means ( to be like )

Nonsense,

 

[gdyloves]

Hold on my friend one thing at a time.ok let's start with this one

So here's the question? What was it that Jesus said to cause the Jews to accuse Jesus of blasphemy and want to kill Him? Jesus said at John 5:17, "My Father is working until now, and I My self am working." In other words Jesus was claiming that God was His own Father."

Then there is John 10:30. "I and the Father, we are one." One what gdyloves? They are one in nature or essence.

Are you or I Jesus, no of course not BUT Jesus said

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John 14:20

SO how could they be one in essence, because we are all woven together but that doesnt mean that because "we are in Jesus and Jesus is in God that we are equal to God does it?

 

[Dagallen]

you mean these?
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 3:17[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Matt 11:27[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] All things have been delivered to me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; neither does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son wills to reveal [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif].[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 28:19[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Go you therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 5:21-23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son also quickens whom he will. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who sent him. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 8:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 8:58[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 10:27-30[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]them[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]them[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 12:44-45[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And Jesus cried and said, He who believes on me, believes not on me, but on him who sent me. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]And he that sees me sees him who sent me.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 14:7-11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] If you had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip says to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Have I been so long time with you, and do you not know me, Philip? he who has seen me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say to you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me does his works. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 15:23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He who hates me hates my Father also. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 16:14-15[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to you. All things whatever the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he takes of mine, and shall declare [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to you. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 17:4-5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, you glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 20:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Acts 20:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost has made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Tit 2:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]2Pe 1:1[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rev 22:12-13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif](Compare 1.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 1:8-9[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] but of the Son he says,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Your throne, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]O God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. Y[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]ou have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2.8-9 and not after Christ: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] for in Him dwells [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]all the fulness of the Godhead bodily[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif],[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Php 2:5-11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]who,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] being in the form of God,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]even[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted Him, and gave to Him [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]the name which is above every name[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] in heaven and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] on earth and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Lord[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], to the glory of God the Father. [/FONT]







Nonsense,

Not nonsense at all, a proverb means to be like, Jesus was the image of his God and Father, he was God like, doesn't mean that he is God himself, just as you are called to be Christ like, doesn't mean you are Christ himself.

 

[bluto]

Hold on my friend one thing at a time.ok let's start with this one


Are you or I Jesus, no of course not BUT Jesus said

On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
John 14:20

SO how could they be one in essence, because we are all woven together but that doesnt mean that because "we are in Jesus and Jesus is in God that we are equal to God does it?

Ok gdyloves, your point is taken so I will take one thing at a time. What your telling me is that the Father and the Son are one in purpose just like Jesus and His apostles are one in purpose and I totally agree with that. However, if you read the context of John 10:30 Jesus is telling the Jews that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is eqaul to that of the Father but there is much more that Jesus is saying.

The Greek text of John 10:30 literally says, "I and the Father, We are one." When Jesus said this the Jews acted accordingly and want to kill Him because they understood what Jesus meant. This is why the Jews reacted the way they did. Did you ever wonder why Jesus Christ according to John 3:16 is the one and only begotten Son of God? This means as there are no others.

Your nature or essence is that of human. You share your humanity with you parents and all other humans. The nature of Jesus is that of deity and humanity. Jesus is the only person to have two natures. One on His Father's side and one on His mother's side. This is why Jesus Christ referred to Himself on numerous occastions as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." It's a universal law that sons and daughters share the same nature as it's father. Can you give me an example of a son that does not have the same nature as its' father?

Beavers beget other beavers, birds beget other birds. Humans beget other humans and so on. It is your nauture that separates you from all other species that is not human. Please tell me where I'm wrong? And btw, what did you come up with regarding John 20:20 where Thomas said Jesus was his "Lord and God?" PS: And since you quoted John 14:20 please look at John 14:23 and tell me how it is possible if Jesus Christ is not God He can make His abode in a person along with the Father?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[gdyloves]

you mean these?
[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 3:17[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Matt 11:27[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] All things have been delivered to me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; neither does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son wills to reveal [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]him[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif].[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Mat 28:19[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Go you therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 5:21-23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son also quickens whom he will. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who sent him. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 8:12[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 8:58[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 10:27-30[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]them[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]them[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 12:44-45[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And Jesus cried and said, He who believes on me, believes not on me, but on him who sent me. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]And he that sees me sees him who sent me.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 14:7-11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] If you had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip says to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Have I been so long time with you, and do you not know me, Philip? he who has seen me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say to you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me does his works. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 15:23[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He who hates me hates my Father also. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 16:14-15[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to you. All things whatever the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he takes of mine, and shall declare [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]it[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to you. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 17:4-5[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, you glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Joh 20:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]Acts 20:28[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost has made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] He purchased with his own blood.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Tit 2:13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]2Pe 1:1[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Rev 22:12-13[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is. [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif](Compare 1.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty).[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Heb 1:8-9[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] but of the Son he says,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Your throne, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]O God[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. Y[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]ou have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Col 2.8-9 and not after Christ: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] for in Him dwells [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]all the fulness of the Godhead bodily[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif],[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Php 2:5-11[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]who,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] being in the form of God,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]even[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] to death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted Him, and gave to Him [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]the name which is above every name[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] in heaven and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] on earth and [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]things[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] Lord[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], to the glory of God the Father. [/FONT]







Nonsense,

None of this proves Jesus is God it proves he's Gods son...
2 different beings..

 

[Dagallen]

Get your quote right, 'you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent'.

Before time began the Son shared the glory of God. It doesn't get any plainer than that. Only God could share the glory of God.

But He humbled Himself and became the God-man Jesus Christ and set aside His glory. And now He would be restored to the glory that had been His, the glory of God.

Thus the Father is not the only true God. He shares the honour with His Son,

He was speaking about his Father, Jesus is not the Father or are saying Jesus is the Father ?

 

[gdyloves]

The scriptures state of Jesus:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Collosians 1:15-19)
So it was only consistent and right that Jesus should be the “firstborn from the dead” or the first of the resurrection. This is why the scriptures also state that after Christ arose that “… the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” (Matthew 27:52-53) In addition: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ” (1 Peter 1:3 )

It is only by Jesus that any part of our existence has come into being. The scriptures describe Jesus as having always existed:

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Hebrews 13:8 )
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelations 1:8 )
But the scriptures also plainly teach that Jesus is begotten of the heavenly Father. Don’t ask me to explain what God fully means by begotten, and yet always “was”. I was not there before the world was; how could I explain such things. God the Father is not confused and knows exactly what he means when he states Jesus is his “only begotten son”. I think we are very limited in our ability to understand some things since we, in our current state, are very time oriented creatures with a very short existence and limited capabilities to fully comprehend concepts like “forever”. God is not limited by our limitations, so what he fully means by Jesus being his “only begotten” is beyond us in this life. Reasoning according to our physical life and how begotten happens on earth could lead us to concluding the idea that Jesus was created by God – which conflicts with the rest of the scriptures. Jesus has always been and is forever. I believe the most important thing the Father wants us to understand when he describes his Son as his “begotten” is that Jesus was sent from God – and in that sense he was “begotten” from God. Additionally, “only begotten” means that Jesus is most precious to the Father and he wants us to hold his Son in the most highest position and respect because he was the only one sent from the Father that can save us!

 

[Dagallen]

A very good post and openly spoken, very interesting.

 

[bluto]

The scriptures state of Jesus:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell” (Collosians 1:15-19)
So it was only consistent and right that Jesus should be the “firstborn from the dead” or the first of the resurrection. This is why the scriptures also state that after Christ arose that “… the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.” (Matthew 27:52-53) In addition: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ” (1 Peter 1:3 )

It is only by Jesus that any part of our existence has come into being. The scriptures describe Jesus as having always existed:

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Hebrews 13:8 )
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelations 1:8 )



But the scriptures also plainly teach that Jesus is begotten of the heavenly Father. Don’t ask me to explain what God fully means by begotten, and yet always “was”. I was not there before the world was; how could I explain such things. God the Father is not confused and knows exactly what he means when he states Jesus is his “only begotten son”. I think we are very limited in our ability to understand some things since we, in our current state, are very time oriented creatures with a very short existence and limited capabilities to fully comprehend concepts like “forever”. God is not limited by our limitations, so what he fully means by Jesus being his “only begotten” is beyond us in this life. Reasoning according to our physical life and how begotten happens on earth could lead us to concluding the idea that Jesus was created by God – which conflicts with the rest of the scriptures. Jesus has always been and is forever. I believe the most important thing the Father wants us to understand when he describes his Son as his “begotten” is that Jesus was sent from God – and in that sense he was “begotten” from God. Additionally, “only begotten” means that Jesus is most precious to the Father and he wants us to hold his Son in the most highest position and respect because he was the only one sent from the Father that can save us!

Every single word you said or quoted confirms that Jesus Christ is God Almighty including Revelation 1:8. In fact, Philippians 2:3-11 backs up the deity of Jesus Christ. And so does John 1:1-14 and notice John 1:3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. Oh yea, there is also Revelation 3:14, please read that verse.

Now, regarding your second part of your post where you said, "But the scriptures also plainly teach that Jesus is begotten of the heavenly Father. Don’t ask me to explain what God fully means by begotten, and yet always “was”. Yes, the scriptures do teach that Jesus Christ is begotten of the Father and it can be Biblically explained. God is "NOT" in the business of leaving His children in the dark. Yes, there are things hard to understand but there is always a logical way to "RECONCILE" things that seem contradictory. Take the word "begotten," how is the word used in the Bible? If you want I can explain it to you but let's deal with this post first.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[gdyloves]

Well bluto I guess we differ in opinions, and that's ok.

But let me ask you something. When Jesus was on the cross and yelled out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? " who was he talking to?

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

you mean these?
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; neither does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son wills to reveal him.


Mat 28:19 Go you therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:


Joh 5:21-23 For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son also quickens whom he will. For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who sent him.


Joh 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.


Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Joh 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.


Joh 12:44-45 And Jesus cried and said, He who believes on me, believes not on me, but on him who sent me. And he that sees me sees him who sent me.


Joh 14:7-11 If you had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip says to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Have I been so long time with you, and do you not know me, Philip? he who has seen me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say to you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me does his works.


Joh 15:23 He who hates me hates my Father also.


Joh 16:14-15 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it to you. All things whatever the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he takes of mine, and shall declare it to you.


Joh 17:4-5 I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, you glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.


Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost has made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which He purchased with his own blood.


Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;


2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:


Rev 22:12-13 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
(Compare 1.8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty).


Heb 1:8-9 but of the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows


Col 2.8-9 and not after Christ: for in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,


Php 2:5-11 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even to death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted Him, and gave to Him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.







Nonsense,

Not nonsense at all, a proverb means to be like, Jesus was the image of his God and Father, he was God like, doesn't mean that he is God himself, just as you are called to be Christ like, doesn't mean you are Christ himself.

I notice you did not answer the Scripture that I gave. As usual you ignore the Scriptures and write irrelevant nonsense..

 

[valiant]

Well bluto I guess we differ in opinions, and that's ok.

But let me ask you something. When Jesus was on the cross and yelled out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? " who was he talking to?

In the depth of His agony He was citing Psal 22. As man He cried to God. His Godhead was subsumed.

 

[MattforJesus]

Now my turn to ask a question.
When a certain ruler came to Jesus and called him good why did Jesus reply
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God and man in harmony,and He could either speak according to His deity,or His humanity.

The man approached Jesus according to His humanity,and Jesus answered according to His humanity,and said,why call Me good,for there is one good,and that is God,which means the man Christ Jesus did good because God caused Him to do good,giving glory to God.

If the man approached Jesus according to His deity Jesus would of said,I am good.