ISRAEL: GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE - YES OR NO?

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Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Just FYI for clarification as we continue. Hebrew is actually a language, and the sect of people that can speak and read it such as Abraham. Israel is actually a nation. There are many of Israelite heritage (not pure-bred) that have no idea how to speak Hebrew, and probably never studied it either. Being more definitive might help those of us reading the posts.

Let it be know that the Septuagint LXX written some 300 years before Jesus was in Kione Greek format. This was taken from the HEbrew Manuscripts.

By the time, Jesus arrived on the scene, the Septuagint was used almost exclusively throughout the world as the OT. In actuality, Greek had became the main language of the day and whatever Hebrew was spoken was most likely from a priest using it in a ritual.

The RCC still uses Latin today instead of English but most of the time only in ceremonies or rituals much like Hebrew was used instead of the Greek and Latin languages of the day.

Keep in mind that it took some twenty + years after the Romans had made Latin the official Language for Greek to disappear.

So the people of the time period of 1 AD to around 60 AD still spoke Greek.

The bottom line is that the OT and the NT and the Languages they were written in had nothing to do with the Heritage of the Israeli people or the ability to tell who was who..
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Paul has only quoted part of this prophecy from Isaiah, it was a practice to give the hearer readers attention to the full context:

Isa 59:18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.

Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

The corollary prophecy:

Isa 27:9 By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.

Isa 27:10 Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness: there shall the calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof.

Isa 27:11 When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will show them no favour.

There are two motifs in regards to Jacob, one of salvation for those that turn from transgression and judgement when he "defenced city shall be desolate"

This occurred during the 1st century AD with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

It's a good news/bad news situation. Good news for them that turned from transgression, bad news for those that didn't.





I do not believe that you have read enough about Paul to understand that Paul Not peter was preaching to the Gentiles. Peter by agree with Paul would bring the Gospel to the Jewish Population. I urge you to get it right for your soul's sake.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Nuff said, unless you goys want to argue further with the scripture.

I think it would benefit you to read Luke 1 the whole chapter by mostly verses 26-35.

Yes, Jesus is in the line of David and Gabriel tells Mary (the Virgin) that her son will sit upon the throne of David and he shall rule over the HOUSE of Jacob (Israel) forever. God the Father will give Jesus' father (David's throne).

in fact Jesus tells the pharisees that 'His father is of King David yet He was there to create him (David)". They could not solve that riddle.

Please pay better attention to scripture. Time is short.





 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I do not believe that you have read enough about Paul to understand that Paul Not peter was preaching to the Gentiles. Peter by agree with Paul would bring the Gospel to the Jewish Population. I urge you to get it right for your soul's sake.
What? This is a "soul issue"? How?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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I think it would benefit you to read Luke 1 the whole chapter by mostly verses 26-35.

Yes, Jesus is in the line of David and Gabriel tells Mary (the Virgin) that her son will sit upon the throne of David and he shall rule over the HOUSE of Jacob (Israel) forever. God the Father will give Jesus' father (David's throne).

in fact Jesus tells the pharisees that 'His father is of King David yet He was there to create him (David)". They could not solve that riddle.

Please pay better attention to scripture. Time is short.





Time is short for what? For accepting Israel as your lord and saviour?

If Locutus is a real Christian, He will be in the kingdom. Israel issue is irrelevant, so time being short or long does not matter,he will be OK.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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And I ask of you TroFimus,,,why not continue the context. Go back to Gen 12 where the "Abrahamic Covenant" is spoke of for the first time. Here you have 7 "I wills" (you can pull them out).

The go to Gen 15:6-21 where God places Abraham under a deep sleep while GOD performs a ritual that would bring about a solemn oath. Because God was performing this ritual by himself, it is considered to be unconditional.

In otherwords, Abraham was required to do nothing (he was asleep), Unilateral or it was all by Grace of GOD...With GOD declaring that it was eternal and unconditional... BY FAITH ALONE

One other thing to remember and remember well.... two of the 7 "I Wills": "I will Bless them that Bless thee" and "I will Curse them that Curse thee"



There are four covenants in the OT and NT. The Abrahamic Covenant, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant and God will keep his word in everyone of them...... It is to his Glory, Amen.








The New Testament clarifies that Abraham was waiting for a spiritual land and a spiritual city made by God. In the earthly land of "Israel" he was only a foreigner.

And so also the nation of Israel had a right to stay in the land only when they worshiped true God and obeyed His commandments under the covenant He made with them on the mount Sinai.

Whenever they disobeyed, they were kicked out or punished by wars.
 
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Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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god told Abraham it was his forever,

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1


why do you call God a liar? Dos God renig on his eternal promises? He do you believe eternal life can be lost?
What do you call it when one says that nobody can be perfect?
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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WIllie T what has gotten in to you.......There are Jewish people that have accepted Christ as their savior... They are called Messianic Jews but in reality they are the 'Church' just as others in Christ are the 'Church'.

Having said that, there are many Orthadox, Talmudic Judaizers that do not consider Jesus to be the messiah they are waiting on. Thus, Daniel's 70th week is more for them than it is to punish sinners.

I hope you reconsider that there are many Jews that are part of God's Church.


:confused: what's orthodox about the Talmud?
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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What? This is a "soul issue"? How?
You are using Paul to argue a False Eschatology.

Paul was preaching to the Gentiles in the area, not the Jewish people. Yes, the Jews that did hear his preachings, rioted against him. Peter was preaching to the Jewish people in order to get them converted. Christ "Church" allows anyone who believes in Christ and HIS Gospel to be a part of including Jews.

If you believe that all Israel has become part of the Church and the Israel of the OT is of no more use to God, then you might be in big time error. like Gen 12:3 Error. That is where the Soul comes in focus.

I know that those of us that read the Bible literally are a minority and will become outcast from within the Christian religion itself in the near future. It is easier to go with the flow...I urge you to change directions....from a preterist view to one more literal

 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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You are using Paul to argue a False Eschatology.

Paul was preaching to the Gentiles in the area, not the Jewish people. Yes, the Jews that did hear his preachings, rioted against him. Peter was preaching to the Jewish people in order to get them converted. Christ "Church" allows anyone who believes in Christ and HIS Gospel to be a part of including Jews.

If you believe that all Israel has become part of the Church and the Israel of the OT is of no more use to God, then you might be in big time error. like Gen 12:3 Error. That is where the Soul comes in focus.

I know that those of us that read the Bible literally are a minority and will become outcast from within the Christian religion itself in the near future. It is easier to go with the flow...I urge you to change directions....from a preterist view to one more literal

I do not know what Paul are you talking about, I did not quote any Paul.

I only asked how is this a "soul issue".

I do not choose between preterist and literal view. I think context is important, sometimes its literal, sometimes its metaphorical, depends on the NT how it is clarified there.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1




What do you call it when one says that nobody can be perfect?
what does that have to do with God promising Abraham and his descendants land?
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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The New Testament clarifies that Abraham was waiting for a spiritual land and a spiritual city made by God. In the earthly land of "Israel" he was only a foreigner.

And so also the nation of Israel had a right to stay in the land only when they worshiped true God and obeyed His commandments under the covenant He made with them on the mount Sinai.

Whenever they disobeyed, they were kicked out or punished by wars.

OK,,,,,,,If you want to take out Israel...... take your Bible,,,,turn to Genesis chapter 12. Hold your finger on that page while turning to Acts chapter 2. NOW...Hold up your Bible.

The Pages between between these two Chapters represent ALL Israel that you want to throw away...

This is the amount of GOD's WORD you are throwing out......and yet...you do not think a curse is in order....

---Oh, forgive me.....You also threw that out.. in Chapter 12:3.. OOPS my Bad!

*******************I hope at least one of the prophecies will come true before the "Church" is removed from this earth. That way you and millions of others will have time to change you thinking.



 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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:confused: what's orthodox about the Talmud?

WHile I could give you many different qutoes from authors about the question you just ask, I figure the simple way is the Best.

My actual words were "Having said that, there are many Orthadox, Talmudic Judaizers that do not consider Jesus to be the messiah they are waiting on. Thus, Daniel's 70th week is more for them than it is to punish sinners."

Separated by a comma....Both different but the same.


Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism
Haredi Judaism is a broad spectrum of groups within Orthodox Judaism, all characterized by a .... opposition, but this is seen as the creation of the Haredi community in Israel separate from the other modern Orthodox and Zionist movements.




 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
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I do not know what Paul are you talking about, I did not quote any Paul.

I only asked how is this a "soul issue".

I do not choose between preterist and literal view. I think context is important, sometimes its literal, sometimes its metaphorical, depends on the NT how it is clarified there.

Exactly ,You throw out Israel....and the OLD Testament.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
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And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1




What do you call it when one says that nobody can be perfect?
Go back to Genesis 12 and work your way up to chapter 17:1....You may just change your mind.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
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You are using Paul to argue a False Eschatology.

Paul was preaching to the Gentiles in the area, not the Jewish people. Yes, the Jews that did hear his preachings, rioted against him. Peter was preaching to the Jewish people in order to get them converted. Christ "Church" allows anyone who believes in Christ and HIS Gospel to be a part of including Jews.

If you believe that all Israel has become part of the Church and the Israel of the OT is of no more use to God, then you might be in big time error. like Gen 12:3 Error. That is where the Soul comes in focus.

I know that those of us that read the Bible literally are a minority and will become outcast from within the Christian religion itself in the near future. It is easier to go with the flow...I urge you to change directions....from a preterist view to one more literal


A mistake here was that I was talking to Locutus not trofimus. trofimus was asking about my answer to Locutus' statement about Paul.

My Post #3242580 which in part read "You are using Paul to argue a False Eschatology. " Should have read. "Locutus was using Paul to argue a False Eschatology.

I hope this did not cause to much confusion.



 

unobtrusive

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2017
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Just FYI for clarification as we continue. Hebrew is actually a language, and the sect of people that can speak and read it such as Abraham. Israel is actually a nation. There are many of Israelite heritage (not pure-bred) that have no idea how to speak Hebrew, and probably never studied it either. Being more definitive might help those of us reading the posts.

Let it be know that the Septuagint LXX written some 300 years before Jesus was in Kione Greek format. This was taken from the HEbrew Manuscripts.

By the time, Jesus arrived on the scene, the Septuagint was used almost exclusively throughout the world as the OT. In actuality, Greek had became the main language of the day and whatever Hebrew was spoken was most likely from a priest using it in a ritual.

The RCC still uses Latin today instead of English but most of the time only in ceremonies or rituals much like Hebrew was used instead of the Greek and Latin languages of the day.

Keep in mind that it took some twenty + years after the Romans had made Latin the official Language for Greek to disappear.

So the people of the time period of 1 AD to around 60 AD still spoke Greek.

The bottom line is that the OT and the NT and the Languages they were written in had nothing to do with the Heritage of the Israeli people or the ability to tell who was who..
"After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. (John 5:1-2)
Beth hesda (בית חסד/חסדא), This is the Hebrew word for "house of mercy" or "flowing water."

It does seem that three main languages were spoken and read during the time of Jesus' crucifixion. "And set up over his head his accusation written, This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This Is The King Of The Jews." (Matthew 27:37 and Luke 23:38)

Paul addressed numerous Hebrew speaking people. "But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying, Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: (Acts 21:39-40 and Acts 22:1-2)

All this is not to say that Aramaic, Latin, Greek, and certain Mesopotamian languages weren't spoken. I agree that they were.

During Pentecost there were people present that spoke numerous divers languages. Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people that lived in Mesopotamia, in Judaea, and Cappadocia, peple from Pontus, and Asia,Phrygia, and Pamphylia, as far away as Egypt, and places of Libya about Cyrene, Romans, Jews,Cretes and Arabians, and they all heard the Gospel in their own language.

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" (Acts 2:5-8)

As I previously mentioned "Hebrew" is a language and not a nationality. It's like people in England speak English. English is not a nation, but England is. My only purpose for posting this was to say that Israel is not the nation of Hebrew as to not confuse the reader. Abraham spoke Hebrew but wasn't an Israelite. Genesis 14:13






 
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willybob

Guest
Part 1

Was the physical land promise forever?
To Christians that perceive the physical-land promises to Israel were forever.

Let us examine the Hebrew word “owlam” (forever) is used in describing the feast of unleavened bread (Exodus 12:17), the “sheave offering” > (Exodus 29:26-28), the “wave offering” > Exodus 29:25-28, the “meat offering”/”sin offering, > Leviticus 6:13-18, the yearly feast of “atonement”, > Leviticus 16:29-31, “the Passover”, > Exodus 12:1-4, the “burning of the lamp” in the temple, > Exodus 27:20-21, the “priesthood”, > Exodus 40:13-15, the “washing” of the priestly hands, > Exodus 30:20-21, “clothing” and “anointing” of the priesthood, > Exodus 28:40-43, the Levites “carrying the ark of God”, > 1 Chronicles 15:2, keeping the “Sabbath”, > Exodus 31:16, the children of the strangers “bondmen” of the children of Israel, > Leviticus 25:45-46, the literal “throne” of Israel (2 Samuel 7:12-13). All of these shadows were fulfilled in Christ. Thus, in the natural they were never meant to continue forever as we think of as forever, but rather until the time of fulfillment.

Of course we know these shadows have all been terminated long ago. There has been no unending (everlasting) continuance of them in the flesh. God made sure there wouldn't be because of Israel's disobedience, and His true and better provision in Christ, whereas the new covenant being more glorious superseded the old covenant that was ONCE GLORIOUS.

It was the same with the land. It is not about real estate values in Palestine, (the supposed holy-land). But rather it is about inhabiting the kingdom of God (the heavenly holy land). Even Abraham knew this, Hebrews 11-16. It is all about Christ. He is the eternal fulfillment of all these things. God has NO biological children. All of His children are descendants through the Spirit.

In the allegorical description in Galatians; Abraham had 2 sons, Ishmael and Isaac; one was born of the flesh, the other of the Spirit. Even from the beginning with Abraham, race nor physical birth-right was never the determining factor when it comes to blessings. It was spiritual lineage codified through righteous deeds done in devotion towards God was the birth right contained. Scripture says Abraham would be the father of MANY NATIONS. “ie” Ruben lost the birth right in favour of Joseph. This is Abraham’s seed by faith through Christ, an INWARD Jew Romans 2-28,29. Natural supposed Jews, will only be real Jews when they turn from unbelief and choose to be faithfulness to God through His Son, and are willing to abide by the Law of Christ. Those that do so will be grafted back in for God is able.



It doesn't say Physical-Israel as a Nation will be grafted in. It says in Romans 11:23 "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able (dunatos)to graff them in again."

The Greek word “dunatos” means capable, possible, able, or could.

This is a conditional promise which applies to the unbelieving Jews. But nowhere in the New Testament does it say they will be returned to the land. The Old Testament passages that promise this relate to old covenant promises pertaining to old covenant Israel, not a Christ rejecting Israel.

“able to be grafted in” is a conditional promise. There is a big difference between the sayings “God is able” and ‘God will’. We know by reading the OT book of Isaiah that the children of God "limited the Holy One of Israel" through unbelief. They put limitations as to what God was able to do. Remember, Jesus could do no miracles in Nazareth. The people limited God’s grace because of their unbelief. Or as it says in the book of Isaiah the people “limited the Holy One of Israel”

The fact is: nowhere in the New Testament does it say Natural-Israel “will” return to the land of Palestine and have its former status restored. What is even more ironic is that the Palestinians themselves most likely have the most Jewish blood, maybe up to 15 %...The Old Testament passages that assure this relate to old covenant promises, pertaining to old covenant Israel, in that they should abide in God. And receiving the Messiah when He should come was part of that abiding. Notwithstanding, God still MUST keep His promise to Abraham. Of which He has. For the promise was as to his “seed” as in One”, not “seeds” as in many, Galatians 3-16. Therefore, sense Christ is the SEED of promise, it is those “IN” Christ, (a spiritual decedent), and these too are likewise Abraham’s seed by faith.
Whilst the apostle Paul said, “God is able,” there is no New Testament evidence that it will be in an Old Testament Nationalistic sense. God removed himself from the earthly nation building business long ago. The old covenant structure has been completely destroyed forever. Paul said it was ONCE GLORIOUS but now has waxed away. God’s long suffering graciously gave Israel yet another 40 years to repent and believe, but only the believing Jews did so, and the rest by their “own choice” were given over to unbelief. Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Willie