Monergism or Synergism?

[Issachar92]

thanks for that chart. of those i agree with the calvinist most i think its right. so then i should vote monergism right?

whats wrong with the lutheran one hahaha its messy. "illumination" what in the world. "mystical union" yeah thats catholic stuff for sure. maybe this is why the lutheran churches are so messed up.

The real question is which churches believe the "Traditionalist" view? I cant name one! Maybe it vanished with the early church? Help a brotha out!

 

[Locutus]

Oh, and you may think you understand KJV English. And probably some of it you do. But, whenever someone comes up with some half cocked idea in this forum, they always will post the "proof" in the KJV. And it is easily refuted with the Greek.

I agree with some misunderstanding the KJV - one glaring example was presented by a poster on here about time ending in relation to Rev 10:6

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

From a misreading of the above verse the poster was and still is claiming this is where time ends.

Even the New KJV corrects it:

Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer.

Of course it was me and the other translations that were wrong.

There are far to many erroneous "understandings" that come out of using the KJV.

 

[MarcR]

Not at all MarcR, It's a hypothetical question (I thought you might have known that), The question in various forms has been around for a long time.

It was maxwell who posed the question like this:

""If Jesus only made salvation possible to all, is it possible that nobody would be saved?"

It would be better put this way:"If Jesus only made salvation possible to all, would it have been possible that nobody would be saved?"

I would say that those who believe in autonomous free will, would have to concur yes it would have been possible!

I don't know anyone who believes in autonomous free will.

I believe in free will concurrent with God's sovereignty.

I believe that God wanted a creature who would be able to receive and return His love.

The price God knowingly paid for such a creature was that He got a creature who was able to reject and refuse His love.

Love, by nature, cannot be programmed or compelled.

God foreknew how Adam would respond when his love was tested with the forbidden fruit; and accepted that response in order not to preclude the possibility of love.

God planned man's redemption before man's fall.

God had foreknowledge of mankind's response to Jesus before Adam was created; but elected not to influence that response.

If it were the case that nobody would accept Jesus' redemption, I believe He would not have allowed Jesus to suffer in vain.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't know anyone who believes in autonomous free will.

And a will that is not autonomous is not free. Free means to be w/o restrictions.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I agree with some misunderstanding the KJV - one glaring example was presented by a poster on here about time ending in relation to Rev 10:6

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

From a misreading of the above verse the poster was and still is claiming this is where time ends.

Even the New KJV corrects it:

Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer.

Of course it was me and the other translations that were wrong.

There are far to many erroneous "understandings" that come out of using the KJV.

Thou knave!?!?!? How darest thou sayeth such things as this against the KJV. Boweth thine knee and repenteth of thine sins, lest an evil spiriteth cometh upon thine soul....

Booeth!! Booeth!!

 

[OneFaith]

This is too simple for the bible pundits and experts. There must be something complex we can write books about and make some dolla$? Remember, its not of works not of works not of works not of works.

I got a suggestion, how about some of yall tattoo the not of works on ya? You might as well, I know its forbidden in the bible but who cares about that right? Jesus obeyed for you. Aint that how it was?

All joking aside, here is an example: Joe is cheating on his wife, now Joe stops cheating on his wife and goes to his wife and asks for forgiveness, with a broken heart and repentant mindset. Joe does not earn forgiveness by stopping the cheating, but the wife forgives and shows mercy.

This is how the not of works crowd sees it: Joe is cheating on his wife, then stops and goes to his wife boasting and claims i earned forgiveness because i stopped cheating on you. (This is the "you are saving yourself" fallacy.) Notice the wife is not obligated to forgive even after the cheating has stopped, it is purely by mercy if that happens or not.

Some folks take it a step further, the easy-believism crowd that says Joe can continue cheating on his wife, and just tells the wife its alright, you'll clean me up later, it'll happen eventually, i'll stop messing around and do it a little bit less, i'll get sanctified eventually.

Then there is the calvinist view which says that Joe dont even wanna stop (or cant stop?) cheating on his wife until regenerated and God grants repentance.

Aint it strange how folks quit alcohol and other things all the time without God? So atheists can do a bunch of things, but christians cant do nothing?
Its like the verse says: I can do all things through Christ, (except obey him), thats the way it is, and if you try to obey well you're just tryna justify yourself and you're damned for sure, works salvation and its not of works remember!

Rediculous isn’t it? I’m so glad I’m not the only one who understands we need to obey God. I’ve encountered all types. One guy said he could get drunk and ‘take home a date from the bar’ on Friday or Saturday, because on Sunday he will take the Lord’s Supper and be forgiven.

 

[OneFaith]

I am really not getting this analogy!

I live in Canada! We have to change our tires twice a year - all 4 of them. From summer to winter, and winter to summer.

My son-in-law is a brilliant doctor and he changes his tires. My father was a dumb jock with a Ph.D and he changed his tires. My husband is a handyman and he changes his tires.

But a flat? Even my husband takes it to the tire garage. Because you need special equipment to get it off the rims. So, what is your point?

As for light bulbs?? Who gets a handyman to do that? I am disabled, and I change lightbulbs all the time. Handy hubby let the shoemaker's children go barefoot, sometimes, unless I beg him, on lights that are up high!

But, your whole premise concerning soteriology is wrong! All you end up is with a legalist, obeying the law on the outside, with no change on the inside. What did Jesus say?

"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:3-6 NET

The words "born from above" is correctly translated in this version. It is not "born again" in this place, where Jesus says it. Although, Nicodemus sure got it wrong! He thought Jesus WAS saying "born again." But Jesus was talking "from above." The word in Greek is anothenἄνωθεν and it means both "from above" and "again."

But Jesus wasn't talking about going back into his mother's womb at all! He wasn't talking about being born a second time. Jesus was talking about being born from above! Being born of the spirit. But, if you want to say "born again" it can actually work too! Except you have to remember that being born again, means being born of the spirit from above!

So, let us use this analogy instead of clumsy metaphors about turtles and flat tires! Jesus says the start of our journey is the spirit changing us from the inside out. There is no decision to make! God does the work!

And that work is powerful! It changes us in a way that we KNOW has happened! We want to obey God! We want to repent of our sins! We want to walk with God the rest of our days!

That is why I am a monergist! Because, no, I never made a decision! God just changed me, in an instant! And the first thing he told me was I needed to repent of my sins! And to read the Bible! Which was so strong, such a command I didn't dare disobey, I have been reading and studying the Bible ever since! That was May, 1980!

In my own strength, I could not make a decision. My heart was hard! My mind was turned to the world! But God stopped me in my tracks! His Spirit changed my spirit! Then, I had the ability to follow God, which I could not in my own strength. I was born from above.

A dead person cannot make decisions about what it is going to do. Before God saves us, we are dead people. Eph. 2 makes this very clear!

"And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!—6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:1-10

Verse 5 says it all! We were dead in our sins, and God made us alive in Christ. No obedience before, no decisions, God made us alive with Christ! Why? Because of his grace! Amazing!

I was answering Zmouth from post 31, it wasn’t my original- which is why it didn’t make sense to you. And yeah, Christ’s analogies are much better than mine. I was trying to do a different version of the good and bad soils accepting seed or not.

Being born again or being born from above mean the same thing- spiritually born of God- which happens at baptism. “Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the Holy Spirit.” This is being born of water and the Spirit.

Obedience is required to receive grace (Christ’s blood). We must obey the gospel- which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. We die to ourself, bury our sinful self in the watery grave of baptism (during which God performs circumcision of the heart, with Christ’s blood), and we are raised to newness of life. Baptism is obeying the gospel. “With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of His Son.”

 

[MarcR]

And a will that is not autonomous is not free. Free means to be w/o restrictions.

Because God is indeed sovereign. He does indeed have the power to override our will; however, since God elects tot to interfere with our will, it is indeed free.

 

[Desertsrose]

Well said, Marc!!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Because God is indeed sovereign. He does indeed have the power to override our will; however, since God elects tot to interfere with our will, it is indeed free.

Where do you find He does not interfere with our wills? What verse, or verses, say He does just that?

Some definitions of 'free'...

--not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes...So, our wills are not under the control or power of God?

--release from physical obstruction, restraint, or entanglement....were our wills free from the slavery of sin whilst we were lost?

--not or no longer a prisoner or an enslaved person...where we not slaves to sin and Satan whilst lost?

--not held in a fixed position or not joined to anything...were we not joined to Satan whilst lost?

In no way, shape, form or fashion was our will free whilst we were lost.

 

[MarcR]

Where do you find He does not interfere with our wills? What verse, or verses, say He does just that?

Some definitions of 'free'...

--not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes...So, our wills are not under the control or power of God?

--release from physical obstruction, restraint, or entanglement....were our wills free from the slavery of sin whilst we were lost?

--not or no longer a prisoner or an enslaved person...where we not slaves to sin and Satan whilst lost?

--not held in a fixed position or not joined to anything...were we not joined to Satan whilst lost?

In no way, shape, form or fashion was our will free whilst we were lost.

Like the word 'Trinity', there is no specific Scripture that I can point to; but I believe that it can be correctly inferred from the totality of Scripture.

I can't conceive of any other way that "not willing that any should perish" and "Ye have not chosen Me ; but, I have chosen you" can be simultaneously true.

 

[Issachar92]

Heres the thing: If humans dont got free will, how is any judgment truly just and right? If we had no chance but to mess it up and had no ability to turn to God?

As Abraham said: Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

 

[Grandpa]

Having no ability to do good shouldn't be a qualification for not being judged for doing bad.

A mass murderer can't just tell the judge that they had no ability to do good and expect that is a good defense.

 

[trofimus]

Heres the thing: If humans dont got free will, how is any judgment truly just and right? If we had no chance but to mess it up and had no ability to turn to God?

As Abraham said: Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

"Inclination" is a key word.

Theoretically, you can live without any sin. But you will not because you will not overcome your sinful inclination.

And because God is not author of your sinful inclinations, it will be just when He will punish unbelievers for sinning.

 

[Issachar92]

"Inclination" is a key word.

Theoretically, you can live without any sin. But you will not because you will not overcome your sinful inclination.

And because God is not author of your sinful inclinations, it will be just when He will punish unbelievers for sinning.

Makes sense. I wanna ask, in the reformed view who is the author of those sinful inclinations? the devil? Adam?

I believe in sinful inclinations but i also think we can rule over it like God said to cain:

genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

 

[trofimus]

Makes sense. I wanna ask, in the reformed view who is the author of those sinful inclinations? the devil? Adam?

I believe in sinful inclinations but i also think we can rule over it like God said to cain:

genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

I cannot speak for "reformed camp", I think that the sinful inclination is a natural property of every creation. It got very strengthtened by the fact we live in a material body and of course by the temptations of devil.

Yes, you can. Do it, live without a sin. You are not perfect and you will fail.

 

[Issachar92]

I cannot speak for "reformed camp", I think that the sinful inclination is a natural property of every creation. It got very strengthtened by the fact we live in a material body and of course by the temptations of devil.

Yes, you can. Do it, live without a sin. You are not perfect and you will fail.

Well according to your view then, who/what is the author of those sinful inclinations? the devil? Adam?

And im not sinless, ive blown that one loong time ago

 

[trofimus]

Well according to your view then, who/what is the author of those sinful inclinations? the devil? Adam?

And im not sinless, ive blown that one loong time ago

Sinful inclination is a simple fact that we are not God and therefore its natural for us to sin (make wrong decisions).

 

[Issachar92]

Sinful inclination is a simple fact that we are not God and therefore its natural for us to sin (make wrong decisions).

I know what it is but, you said God isnt the author of it, who is? the devil or adam or who?

 

[trofimus]

I know what it is but, you said God isnt the author of it, who is? the devil or adam or who?

Nobody. You would have to be God to be perfect.

Every creation is naturally not God and therefore inclines to evil. This inclination can be weak like in angels or very strong like in fallen human race. But is there. It depends on how far away we are from God.