Monergism or Synergism?
- Thread starter Rokurac
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This is too simple for the bible pundits and experts. There must be something complex we can write books about and make some dolla$? Remember, its not of works not of works not of works not of works.
I got a suggestion, how about some of yall tattoo the not of works on ya? You might as well, I know its forbidden in the bible but who cares about that right? Jesus obeyed for you. Aint that how it was?
All joking aside, here is an example: Joe is cheating on his wife, now Joe stops cheating on his wife and goes to his wife and asks for forgiveness, with a broken heart and repentant mindset. Joe does not earn forgiveness by stopping the cheating, but the wife forgives and shows mercy.
This is how the not of works crowd sees it: Joe is cheating on his wife, then stops and goes to his wife boasting and claims i earned forgiveness because i stopped cheating on you. (This is the "you are saving yourself" fallacy.) Notice the wife is not obligated to forgive even after the cheating has stopped, it is purely by mercy if that happens or not.
Some folks take it a step further, the easy-believism crowd that says Joe can continue cheating on his wife, and just tells the wife its alright, you'll clean me up later, it'll happen eventually, i'll stop messing around and do it a little bit less, i'll get sanctified eventually.
Then there is the calvinist view which says that Joe dont even wanna stop (or cant stop?) cheating on his wife until regenerated and God grants repentance.
Aint it strange how folks quit alcohol and other things all the time without God? So atheists can do a bunch of things, but christians cant do nothing?
Its like the verse says: I can do all things through Christ, (except obey him), thats the way it is, and if you try to obey well you're just tryna justify yourself and you're damned for sure, works salvation and its not of works remember!
I got a suggestion, how about some of yall tattoo the not of works on ya? You might as well, I know its forbidden in the bible but who cares about that right? Jesus obeyed for you. Aint that how it was?
All joking aside, here is an example: Joe is cheating on his wife, now Joe stops cheating on his wife and goes to his wife and asks for forgiveness, with a broken heart and repentant mindset. Joe does not earn forgiveness by stopping the cheating, but the wife forgives and shows mercy.
This is how the not of works crowd sees it: Joe is cheating on his wife, then stops and goes to his wife boasting and claims i earned forgiveness because i stopped cheating on you. (This is the "you are saving yourself" fallacy.) Notice the wife is not obligated to forgive even after the cheating has stopped, it is purely by mercy if that happens or not.
Some folks take it a step further, the easy-believism crowd that says Joe can continue cheating on his wife, and just tells the wife its alright, you'll clean me up later, it'll happen eventually, i'll stop messing around and do it a little bit less, i'll get sanctified eventually.
Then there is the calvinist view which says that Joe dont even wanna stop (or cant stop?) cheating on his wife until regenerated and God grants repentance.
Aint it strange how folks quit alcohol and other things all the time without God? So atheists can do a bunch of things, but christians cant do nothing?
Its like the verse says: I can do all things through Christ, (except obey him), thats the way it is, and if you try to obey well you're just tryna justify yourself and you're damned for sure, works salvation and its not of works remember!
We got folks with a college and university education who cant understand KJV-english? That goes to show you how no amount of education can fix dumb.
That aint a jab at you, you are czech so english aint even your native language, but I see a lot of grown educated americans claim they cant read the KJV because its so hard to understand, thats just not true.
Just be honest and say you dont like the old style english and prefer the modern language newer versions, no need to pretend you're dumb.
That aint a jab at you, you are czech so english aint even your native language, but I see a lot of grown educated americans claim they cant read the KJV because its so hard to understand, thats just not true.
Just be honest and say you dont like the old style english and prefer the modern language newer versions, no need to pretend you're dumb.
I do not think that you are taught a medieval English on a University, if you are not studying specifically it.
Many Czechs have also problems with reading medieval Czech. Languages evolve and there is no need to speak like in some Dracula movie, when we can say it in a normal daily language, right?
And I really do not know what beseech is, I do not pretend that.
---
And BTW, I wanted to help you, thats why I posted NIV which says the same thing, only in a normal English.
Many Czechs have also problems with reading medieval Czech. Languages evolve and there is no need to speak like in some Dracula movie, when we can say it in a normal daily language, right?
And I really do not know what beseech is, I do not pretend that.
---
And BTW, I wanted to help you, thats why I posted NIV which says the same thing, only in a normal English.
Last edited:
What about
Deuteronomy 30:11-13
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Hmm. Looks like God says we can obey His commandments? Who woulda thought. Ya mean that God DIDNT give us an UNLIVABLE law? Goodness Gracious.
There is also Deuteronomy 28, choose this day whom ye shall serve.
So come on bible pundits, splain away Deuteronomy 30:11-13?
Deuteronomy 30:11-13
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Hmm. Looks like God says we can obey His commandments? Who woulda thought. Ya mean that God DIDNT give us an UNLIVABLE law? Goodness Gracious.
There is also Deuteronomy 28, choose this day whom ye shall serve.
So come on bible pundits, splain away Deuteronomy 30:11-13?
Last edited:
Galatians 3:21-22
[FONT="]21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
How come all are under sin if it is so easy to obey the law?
Certainly a few should be able to live by this easily attainable choice of life and no sin?
[/FONT]
[FONT="]21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/FONT]
[FONT="]22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
How come all are under sin if it is so easy to obey the law?
Certainly a few should be able to live by this easily attainable choice of life and no sin?
[/FONT]
Jesus said my yoke is easy, arent we supposed to have the Holy Spirit now to empower us? We can do all things through Christ? (Except obey?)
Some folks did obey and keep the law blameless (atleast up until that point in their life):
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Also notice that almost all the blessings listed in the Torah for obedience are earthly.
Some folks did obey and keep the law blameless (atleast up until that point in their life):
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Also notice that almost all the blessings listed in the Torah for obedience are earthly.
The Lord Jesus' yoke is easy.
The yoke of the law is not.
Galatians 5:1 [FONT="]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[/FONT]Acts 15:10 [FONT="]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/FONT]
The yoke of the law is not.
Galatians 5:1 [FONT="]Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
[/FONT]Acts 15:10 [FONT="]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/FONT]
Yes come all to my rest and my yoke is easy but verses before it are:
Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
Verses 25-27
Luke 1:21-22
21Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple. 22When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak.
Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
Verses 25-27
Luke 1:21-22
21Meanwhile, the people were waiting for Zechariah and wondering why he stayed so long in the temple. 22When he came out, he could not speak to them. They realized he had seen a vision in the temple, for he kept making signs to them but remained unable to speak.
I am really not getting this analogy!
I live in Canada! We have to change our tires twice a year - all 4 of them. From summer to winter, and winter to summer.
My son-in-law is a brilliant doctor and he changes his tires. My father was a dumb jock with a Ph.D and he changed his tires. My husband is a handyman and he changes his tires.
But a flat? Even my husband takes it to the tire garage. Because you need special equipment to get it off the rims. So, what is your point?
As for light bulbs?? Who gets a handyman to do that? I am disabled, and I change lightbulbs all the time. Handy hubby let the shoemaker's children go barefoot, sometimes, unless I beg him, on lights that are up high!
But, your whole premise concerning soteriology is wrong! All you end up is with a legalist, obeying the law on the outside, with no change on the inside. What did Jesus say?
"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”[FONT="]5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:3-6 NET
The words "born from above" is correctly translated in this version. It is not "born again" in this place, where Jesus says it. Although, Nicodemus sure got it wrong! He thought Jesus WAS saying "born again." But Jesus was talking "from above." The word in Greek is anothen ἄνωθεν and it means both "from above" and "again."
But Jesus wasn't talking about going back into his mother's womb at all! He wasn't talking about being born a second time. Jesus was talking about being born from above! Being born of the spirit. But, if you want to say "born again" it can actually work too! Except you have to remember that being born again, means being born of the spirit from above!
So, let us use this analogy instead of clumsy metaphors about turtles and flat tires! Jesus says the start of our journey is the spirit changing us from the inside out. There is no decision to make! God does the work!
And that work is powerful! It changes us in a way that we KNOW has happened! We want to obey God! We want to repent of our sins! We want to walk with God the rest of our days!
That is why I am a monergist! Because, no, I never made a decision! God just changed me, in an instant! And the first thing he told me was I needed to repent of my sins! And to read the Bible! Which was so strong, such a command I didn't dare disobey, I have been reading and studying the Bible ever since! That was May, 1980!
In my own strength, I could not make a decision. My heart was hard! My mind was turned to the world! But God stopped me in my tracks! His Spirit changed my spirit! Then, I had the ability to follow God, which I could not in my own strength. I was born from above.
A dead person cannot make decisions about what it is going to do. Before God saves us, we are dead people. Eph. 2 makes this very clear!
"And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…[/FONT]
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:1-10
Verse 5 says it all! We were dead in our sins, and God made us alive in Christ. No obedience before, no decisions, God made us alive with Christ! Why? Because of his grace! Amazing!
I live in Canada! We have to change our tires twice a year - all 4 of them. From summer to winter, and winter to summer.
My son-in-law is a brilliant doctor and he changes his tires. My father was a dumb jock with a Ph.D and he changed his tires. My husband is a handyman and he changes his tires.
But a flat? Even my husband takes it to the tire garage. Because you need special equipment to get it off the rims. So, what is your point?
As for light bulbs?? Who gets a handyman to do that? I am disabled, and I change lightbulbs all the time. Handy hubby let the shoemaker's children go barefoot, sometimes, unless I beg him, on lights that are up high!
But, your whole premise concerning soteriology is wrong! All you end up is with a legalist, obeying the law on the outside, with no change on the inside. What did Jesus say?
"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?”[FONT="]5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:3-6 NET
The words "born from above" is correctly translated in this version. It is not "born again" in this place, where Jesus says it. Although, Nicodemus sure got it wrong! He thought Jesus WAS saying "born again." But Jesus was talking "from above." The word in Greek is anothen ἄνωθεν and it means both "from above" and "again."
But Jesus wasn't talking about going back into his mother's womb at all! He wasn't talking about being born a second time. Jesus was talking about being born from above! Being born of the spirit. But, if you want to say "born again" it can actually work too! Except you have to remember that being born again, means being born of the spirit from above!
So, let us use this analogy instead of clumsy metaphors about turtles and flat tires! Jesus says the start of our journey is the spirit changing us from the inside out. There is no decision to make! God does the work!
And that work is powerful! It changes us in a way that we KNOW has happened! We want to obey God! We want to repent of our sins! We want to walk with God the rest of our days!
That is why I am a monergist! Because, no, I never made a decision! God just changed me, in an instant! And the first thing he told me was I needed to repent of my sins! And to read the Bible! Which was so strong, such a command I didn't dare disobey, I have been reading and studying the Bible ever since! That was May, 1980!
In my own strength, I could not make a decision. My heart was hard! My mind was turned to the world! But God stopped me in my tracks! His Spirit changed my spirit! Then, I had the ability to follow God, which I could not in my own strength. I was born from above.
A dead person cannot make decisions about what it is going to do. Before God saves us, we are dead people. Eph. 2 makes this very clear!
"And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…[/FONT]
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:1-10
Verse 5 says it all! We were dead in our sins, and God made us alive in Christ. No obedience before, no decisions, God made us alive with Christ! Why? Because of his grace! Amazing!
Just to add to your comments, and to concur with them!
I speak French fluently! I studied it to get a French Language Proficiency Certificate, in University, because I was teaching French. Which I studied in school from grade 7 to grade 12. I studied Koine Greek in seminary. I read it well. I studied Hebrew in seminary. Not so good at it, because I have not kept it up. I am now studying German in college - second year. My first year was grade 11 and 12. It's a steep learning curve!
I studied Shakespeare twice in high school. They were the units I did the worst on in my whole school career. Why? Because I didn't understand the language! KJV is the same kind of English! Basically the same time in history. I could not understand it then, and I certainly do not understand it now. It is English from 400 years ago.
I am pretty fussy about grammar. I do not know the forms for 2nd person singular. in the KJV I am sure they have the forms right, but I have no way of knowing. I know second person singular in French, German, Greek and Hebrew. For French, German and Spanish, I have a Bescherelle, a book with ALL the verb forms. 8000 in German and 12,000 in French. Where do I look this up for Elizabethan English? Or KJV English?
Then there are the obscure words. Where do I find them? And even worse, the words that have changed meanings. I was reading something the other day about a word that meant something in the KJV, which was completely correct. But it has a very different meaning today, which actually affects theology. I need to find where I read that, and post it here!
So, NO! I do not get the KJV English, despite a Master's degree. I need to understand what I am reading. I am not willing to read a version with convoluted grammar, because it follows the Greek, when it should be following English. Now, in Greek and German, word order doesn't matter. The cases tell the story. But you simply cannot take an accusative noun and place it at the front of a sentence in English, and then say you are following word for word. English doesn't work that way.
I am reading the Bible in German slowly. It is interesting, because it can and does follow the Greek word order at times. But, a couple of months ago, I could not have read it with any understanding! Amazing what 2 months of study can do, when you are forced!
So I consider myself fairly educated, and reasonably intelligent. But, that has NOTHING to do with reading in a language I do not understand, and I have never studied. That is KJ English.
Oh, and you may think you understand KJV English. And probably some of it you do. But, whenever someone comes up with some half cocked idea in this forum, they always will post the "proof" in the KJV. And it is easily refuted with the Greek.
And finally, scholarship in Greek, and Hebrew has grown by leaps and bounds in the last century, let alone the last 4 centuries. To stick with the erroneous KJV is really something I cannot understand why anyone does, because so much more has been uncovered about the way Greek works! (Not sure about Hebrew, Marc would know that!)
I rest my case! AGAIN!
I speak French fluently! I studied it to get a French Language Proficiency Certificate, in University, because I was teaching French. Which I studied in school from grade 7 to grade 12. I studied Koine Greek in seminary. I read it well. I studied Hebrew in seminary. Not so good at it, because I have not kept it up. I am now studying German in college - second year. My first year was grade 11 and 12. It's a steep learning curve!
I studied Shakespeare twice in high school. They were the units I did the worst on in my whole school career. Why? Because I didn't understand the language! KJV is the same kind of English! Basically the same time in history. I could not understand it then, and I certainly do not understand it now. It is English from 400 years ago.
I am pretty fussy about grammar. I do not know the forms for 2nd person singular. in the KJV I am sure they have the forms right, but I have no way of knowing. I know second person singular in French, German, Greek and Hebrew. For French, German and Spanish, I have a Bescherelle, a book with ALL the verb forms. 8000 in German and 12,000 in French. Where do I look this up for Elizabethan English? Or KJV English?
Then there are the obscure words. Where do I find them? And even worse, the words that have changed meanings. I was reading something the other day about a word that meant something in the KJV, which was completely correct. But it has a very different meaning today, which actually affects theology. I need to find where I read that, and post it here!
So, NO! I do not get the KJV English, despite a Master's degree. I need to understand what I am reading. I am not willing to read a version with convoluted grammar, because it follows the Greek, when it should be following English. Now, in Greek and German, word order doesn't matter. The cases tell the story. But you simply cannot take an accusative noun and place it at the front of a sentence in English, and then say you are following word for word. English doesn't work that way.
I am reading the Bible in German slowly. It is interesting, because it can and does follow the Greek word order at times. But, a couple of months ago, I could not have read it with any understanding! Amazing what 2 months of study can do, when you are forced!
So I consider myself fairly educated, and reasonably intelligent. But, that has NOTHING to do with reading in a language I do not understand, and I have never studied. That is KJ English.
Oh, and you may think you understand KJV English. And probably some of it you do. But, whenever someone comes up with some half cocked idea in this forum, they always will post the "proof" in the KJV. And it is easily refuted with the Greek.
And finally, scholarship in Greek, and Hebrew has grown by leaps and bounds in the last century, let alone the last 4 centuries. To stick with the erroneous KJV is really something I cannot understand why anyone does, because so much more has been uncovered about the way Greek works! (Not sure about Hebrew, Marc would know that!)
I rest my case! AGAIN!
D
How about English, instead?
The real difference in the different belief systems is the Order of Salvation. (Okay, so they call it a Latin Term, so neither Greek nor English, but I really do only know it in English. lol) It's not so much that nonCalvinists are all that much different than Calvinists. It's just that NonCalvinists think the order we're saved is different than we think.
And do understand that this isn't a timeline difference, in that we can feel when each moment hits, because the Regeneration all the way to Sanctification can all happen in an instance. It's really how we see God's order in salvation, versus how it feels like as a person. And mostly, for us Calvinists, it's a firm belief that God controls all of it. He's sovereign -- in complete control -- so he doesn't have to wait for people to make decisions.
But this chart will at least give you some idea that we all believe the same words, we just think the order is different.
Order of Salvation
The real difference in the different belief systems is the Order of Salvation. (Okay, so they call it a Latin Term, so neither Greek nor English, but I really do only know it in English. lol) It's not so much that nonCalvinists are all that much different than Calvinists. It's just that NonCalvinists think the order we're saved is different than we think.
And do understand that this isn't a timeline difference, in that we can feel when each moment hits, because the Regeneration all the way to Sanctification can all happen in an instance. It's really how we see God's order in salvation, versus how it feels like as a person. And mostly, for us Calvinists, it's a firm belief that God controls all of it. He's sovereign -- in complete control -- so he doesn't have to wait for people to make decisions.
But this chart will at least give you some idea that we all believe the same words, we just think the order is different.
Order of Salvation
thanks for that chart. of those i agree with the calvinist most i think its right. so then i should vote monergism right?
whats wrong with the lutheran one hahaha its messy. "illumination" what in the world. "mystical union" yeah thats catholic stuff for sure. maybe this is why the lutheran churches are so messed up.
whats wrong with the lutheran one hahaha its messy. "illumination" what in the world. "mystical union" yeah thats catholic stuff for sure. maybe this is why the lutheran churches are so messed up.