Monergism or Synergism?

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Monergism or Synergism

  • Monergism

    Votes: 12 70.6%
  • Synergism

    Votes: 5 29.4%

  • Total voters
    17

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,781
2,945
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#21
Angela,

I never said Reformed people believe any particular thing at all.

I said ONE PARTICULAR ARGUMENT was not a sound argument.
That is all.

I said ONE PARTICULAR ARGUMENT has INHERENT PRESUPPOSITIONS... and logically, if you REMOVE those presuppositions, that argument simply falls apart under it's own weight.

The PROOF that argument has presuppositions, is that if you remove the presuppositions, and insert the real arminian view... the argument falls by it's own weight.
This is the proof the argument contains presuppositions.



Now Angela, my dear friend, I have no idea what you're going on about.
I didn't ascribe some horrible condition of ignorance and presupposition to my Calvinist brothers.
I simple said ONE ARGUMENT is a not a good argument.

If you want to debate that Calvinism is the correct position, you may very well win that debate.
But if you want to debate whether this one particular argument is sound... I don't think that's going to work.
I get tired of hearing these straw man arguments, from both sides, and so I tried to explain how this argument is unsound.
This does nothing to disprove, or even attack, the entire Calvinist position.



I pointed out ONE ARGUMENT was not a good argument.
I did nothing more, and nothing less.
: )

I apologize for my last line. I wanted to make it clear, that I don't think there is anyone who believes your ONE argument

I do not know a single person that believes that God is impotent, to plan, lead direct or foresee the salvation process from any camp- not Arminian, nor Reformed nor in between.
I think I covered all my bases. NO ONE believes in your hypothetical argument. Or, let them post here if someone believes that Arminians believe this, which is obviously about as far from Biblical Christianity as you can get.

I repeat, I know of no one in any camp, Arminianism, Reformed and "in between" who think anyone else believes God is impotent, or that Arminians believe that.

You have created a ridiculous straw man. I personally don't think your straw man is even made of straw, but basically, it is made of nothing! I am not attacking Arminians, but rather defending them from this argument made of nothing. I am defending everyone else you attacked who is not specifically Arminian, who you say believe this about Arminians.

Perhaps next time, if you want to present ONE ARGUMENT then make it one that is at least based on a little bit of truth. Refuting nothing is still nothing!

Once again, instead of these red herring arguments, try and stick to the topic of the thread.

The topic is:

MONERGISM vs. SYNERGISM
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#22
Which view do you believe and can you say why?

I say Monergism and my reasons is this:

1.When Jesus said you have to be born again, the man who he was speaking to i think realized that Jesus means you cant birth yourself.

2.If Jesus only made salvation possible to all, is it possible that nobody would be saved? If everyone just failed to believe and obey enough? i think not because revelation says from all tribes and languages etc.

3.Bible says God works in us to will and do His good pleasure.

4.In acts it says all who were preordained to eternal life believed.

5.How can someone who is dead in trespasses and sins revive himself? And would he even want to?

If you disagree with my points say why you dont like them and whats wrong.

If you you think synergism is right also tell me why its right with verses.
No. It is not possible. If God knew no one would accept his 0ffer. He simply would have not sent his son,

He sent his son because he knew people would recieve his offer. He gen knew who they were.


Why is it people want to try to put a bunch of people into categories. That is why there are so many arguments.
 
Oct 15, 2017
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#23
No. It is not possible. If God knew no one would accept his 0ffer. He simply would have not sent his son,

He sent his son because he knew people would recieve his offer. He gen knew who they were.


Why is it people want to try to put a bunch of people into categories. That is why there are so many arguments.
I already apologized for that. The categories i think is because one side says salvation is God 100% and the other says we are working together with God for our salvation
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#24
We know Arminians are ,Synergistic then Synergistic. But the question is still a valid question...


""If Jesus only made salvation possible (or open) to all, is it possible that nobody would be saved?"

Since we know God is steadfast, then in the synergistic view, it comes down to the person making the decision. So if it is down to the person then it is quite possible in that view that no one will be saved.

Lets state it another way, if God is perfect in His drawing all men, then the logical conclusion is that the decision ultimately lies with the person. Not with God, since He is drawing all men to Himself.





Since we know in fact that some, or even many have indeed been saved, the question is moot because it poses a condition contrary to fact.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
I already apologized for that. The categories i think is because one side says salvation is God 100% and the other says we are working together with God for our salvation
Then their should be a non of the above option :p
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#26
It’s not rocket science, simply obey God and He will give you the gift of grace, and yes you must obey Him. Most people are going to hell, why? Because most people don’t obey Him.

(To be born again is to obey the gospel with baptism).
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#27
It’s not rocket science, simply obey God and He will give you the gift of grace, and yes you must obey Him. Most people are going to hell, why? Because most people don’t obey Him.

(To be born again is to obey the gospel with baptism).
Wouldn't it be necessary for one to obey the word of God that one have knowledge of Spirit of Truth, since you can't know one without the other?

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: John 14:17
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
113
51
#28
Since we know in fact that some, or even many have indeed been saved, the question is moot because it poses a condition contrary to fact.

Not at all MarcR, It's a hypothetical question (I thought you might have known that), The question in various forms has been around for a long time.

It was maxwell who posed the question like this:


""If Jesus only made salvation possible to all, is it possible that nobody would be saved?"

It would be better put this way:
"If Jesus only made salvation possible to all, would it have been possible that nobody would be saved?"

I would say that those who believe in autonomous free will, would have to concur yes it would have been possible!

 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#29
Wouldn't it be necessary for one to obey the word of God that one have knowledge of Spirit of Truth, since you can't know one without the other?

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: John 14:17
Let me give you an example. Let’s say my car has a flat tire. I have three candidates to choose from- a clown, a doctor, and a mechanic. I ask the clown to help me. He spray paints it many colors, and fills it with shaving cream, but it doesn’t fix it. So I ask the doctor for help. He gets on the ground and puts a stethoscope on the tire. Sadly, he wasnt able to make out a heartbeat, but he still gave me an expensive prescription, and a bill for his services. That didn’t help, so I ask the mechanic. He removes the tire and replaces it with a new one. Wow, I say, that’s even better than repairing it.

But actually I already knew who would get the job done before I even asked, but I wanted to give them all a chance. But you see, just like Jesus said, if a heart is good soil it will accept the seed (Word of God). But bad soil is too hard for the seed to take root- so they can’t understand the Word. But because good hearts ask, seek, and knock for understanding (study and prayer) God supplies. Because like He said, He shares His business only with His friends.

So it matters what you are, what kind of heart you have. Sheep will follow a Shepherd, but elephants, bears, and monkeys will not. Did you know that you can put a turtle on the ground, facing any random direction, and it will start heading for the nearest body of water? Good hearts seek God (Living Water) and He will not turn them away, but blesses their obedient hearts with His Spirit and truth.
 
Last edited:

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,703
1,130
113
#30
Let me give you an example. Let’s say my car has a flat tire. I have three candidates to choose from- a clown, a doctor, and a mechanic. I ask the clown to help me. He spray paints it many colors, and fills it with shaving cream, but it doesn’t fix it. So I ask the doctor for help. He gets on the ground and puts a stethoscope on the tire. Sadly, he wasnt able to make out a heartbeat, but he still gave me an expensive prescription, and a bill for his services. That didn’t help, so I ask the mechanic. He removes the tire and replaces it with a new one. Wow, I say, that’s even better than repairing it.

But actually I already knew who would get the job done before I even asked, but I wanted to give them all a chance. But you see, just like Jesus said, if a heart is good soil it will accept the seed (Word of God). But bad soil is too hard for the seed to take root- so they can’t understand the Word. But because good hearts ask, seek, and knock for understanding (study and prayer) God supplies. Because like He said, He shares His business only with His friends.

So it matters what you are, what kind of heart you have. Sheep will follow a Shepherd, but elephants, bears, and monkeys will not. Did you know that you can put a turtle on the ground, facing any random direction, and it will start heading for the nearest body of water? Good hearts seek God (Living Water) and He will not turn them away, but blesses their obedient hearts with His Spirit and truth.
where can i get such a good and obedient heart? how can my dead heart of stone, that wants nothing to do with God, be replaced with a new and living heart?

does every good and perfect gift come from the Father, or what?

i need to know how i can be raised from death to newness of life, can you help me? if 'no one is righteous, no one understands, and no one seeks after God', what hope have i?
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#31
Let me give you an example. Let’s say my car has a flat tire. I have three candidates to choose from- a clown, a doctor, and a mechanic.
LOL, would you call a electrician to change a light bulb or a handy man?

But actually I already knew who would get the job done before I even asked, but I wanted to give them all a chance.
Ok. I bet the mechanic would call a tire technician.

Did you know that you can put a turtle on the ground, facing any random direction, and it will start heading for the nearest body of water?
To be honest, I did not know that. I heard that if you put a blindfold upon a sea turtle they can't find their way back to the water but I never actually tried it. Source
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#32
LOL, would you call a electrician to change a light bulb or a handy man?



Ok. I bet the mechanic would call a tire technician.



To be honest, I did not know that. I heard that if you put a blindfold upon a sea turtle they can't find their way back to the water but I never actually tried it. Source
Both a handyman and an electrician can change a lightbulb lol, but I think you get my point. Also both a mechanic and a tireman can change a tire. I’ve seen a mechanic work also with tires many times cause I was married to one- I guess that’s why I said mechanic. And exactly, a blindfolded turtle can’t find water, just like those who do not have ears to hear or eyes to see cannot find truth. Because you can’t see truth if you’re supressing it. They cover their eyes and ears to it.

I never actually tried the turtle thing either. I watched it on Animal Planet or Nova or something, and I take their word for it.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#33
The problem with synergism is that it assumes people have ability to "work together" with God towards salvation.

But we don't have ability and salvation doesn't work like that. See Ephesians 2:8-9
 
Jul 23, 2017
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#34
im not sure if either one of those are in the bible i dont speak greek.

but i really wanna know why does God ask people to repent if they cant unless God gives them the gift of repentance like calvinists believe? isnt then the command to repent just an illusion? whats up with that? anyone got a quick answer?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,189
113
#35
im not sure if either one of those are in the bible i dont speak greek.

but i really wanna know why does God ask people to repent if they cant unless God gives them the gift of repentance like calvinists believe? isnt then the command to repent just an illusion? whats up with that? anyone got a quick answer?
So that when you try as hard as you can you will know you CAN'T do it.

So you will KNOW it is God that saves you and not anything of yourself. You will know that it is entirely the GIFT of God and not your work or "good" choices.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#36
The problem with synergism is that it assumes people have ability to "work together" with God towards salvation.

But we don't have ability and salvation doesn't work like that. See Ephesians 2:8-9
Grandpa? You've been around here for quite a spell. And, as I am not "hip" to (it seems) very many of these terms that are "tossed around" these days, as it seems they keep coming out with new ones, more often then I change my socks! :cool: (just an analogy, not to be taken literally...Pewwww!)

Would you mind giving me these "societal definitions?"

As it seems (to me, anyway), these are "feeble" attempts of (a) "petitioning" God, "enmasse", in an "organized apostasy", in (a) striving to "present evidence" as to cause a "less harsher" sentence to be imposed, if not seeking full acquittal! (exhibit 1. The book of Jude)

But, I could be wrong! Wouldn't be the first time! :rolleyes:
 
Jul 23, 2017
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#37
So that when you try as hard as you can you will know you CAN'T do it.

So you will KNOW it is God that saves you and not anything of yourself. You will know that it is entirely the GIFT of God and not your work or "good" choices.
thanks uce. i really liked this answer. glory to God.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#38
where can i get such a good and obedient heart? how can my dead heart of stone, that wants nothing to do with God, be replaced with a new and living heart?

does every good and perfect gift come from the Father, or what?

i need to know how i can be raised from death to newness of life, can you help me? if 'no one is righteous, no one understands, and no one seeks after God', what hope have i?
If you don’t have the heart that seeks God, earnestly pray for one, it worked for me. I said “God, like Paul, the good I want to do I don’t do, and the wrong I do not want to do- that is what I end up doing. But it’s worse than that. Sometimes I find that I don’t even want to do something that’s right to do, or even accept something in Your Word. Please, oh please change this in me! ...

Father, I am utilizing my freewill to request that You take it over if needs be. Put that want in me completely, take over and change my heart to be as it should be. I would rather You take me over and control me like a robot than to allow me to ever sin against you. I know You won’t do that, because of freewill. You want my heart to choose to obey You, so if my heart is not right, please give me a new one. I want to want what You want.”

David also prayed to God for a new heart. And God gave him a heart like His. David being a man after God’s own heart does not just apply to David- all God’s children need to have a heart like God’s in order to be His children. Unlike adopted children in this world, a ‘child’ adopted by God can look like their Father, just as a natural born child does. Prayer is powerful in deed- to change my heart or the heart of a murderer (David murdered Uriah, Paul once killed Christians- the chief of sinners). If they have hope, we all do- we just need to pray and “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.”


———————————————


This is how to be raised from death to life; Jesus says “I tell you the truth, unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man (spiritually) and drink His blood (spiritually) you have no life in you.” (spiritually). So first we have to get into Christ (spiritually) in order to have access to His blood. Then, just as a heart continually circulates blood through the body to keep it alive, you must partake of the Lords Supper (bread without yeast- cracker, and the fruit of the vine- grape juice- which represent Christ’s pure body and blood without sin) upon the first day of the week in the assembly of the Saints (Christians).

If someone who is not in Christ partakes of the Lords Supper, all they are doing is eating and drinking- nothing happens for them spiritually. So how do you get into Christ so that you can have life in you (spiritually)? No matter how many ways people say, the Bible says only one way- we are baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3). The Bible says Christ’s church is His body (within a living body is where that person’s blood is) of which He is the only head (authority).

But once you are in Christ, you must stay in Christ- you can fall from grace. For example, if you cut off blood circulation to your finger with extra tight rubber bands, eventually the tissues will die, turn gangrene, and fall away from the body- never to be restored again. But if you do go away from the church, and come back before it’s too late (prodigal son), the Blood will rush back to the area- like when your foot ‘falls asleep’ because you temporarily cut off circulation.

The Bible says the life is in the blood (both physically and spiritually true), and Christ’s blood is in His church (body of believers).
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#39
The problem with synergism is that it assumes people have ability to "work together" with God towards salvation.

But we don't have ability and salvation doesn't work like that. See Ephesians 2:8-9
What about

2Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Since yall love the greek, check out the word for working together, its
συνεργέω synergeō

Ephesians 2:8-9 again, is talking about works of the law, which was a big controversy at the time when Gentiles started to come in to the church (acts 15:1). In acts 19 we see how a couple of the folks in Ephesus got saved. συνεργέω synergeō
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#40
What is the difference between the group going to hell (most people) and the group going to heaven (few people)? Obedience to God. God does not give grace to those who do not obey Him. Their obedience does not earn it, but God won’t give it to them if they refuse to obey.

So salvation is all on God’s part, But He won’t give us salvation if we are not obedient adoptive children.