The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Grandpa]

All are condemned until they believe.

Yes. Agreed.

The flesh is still condemned until it is redeemed so while the soul is redeemed and sealed the flesh still awaits redemption. So yes you are in fact both saved and condemned simultaneously.

That's not the condemnation that is being spoken of.

So no, no one is in fact both saved and condemned simultaneously. Otherwise it would say All men regardless of believing in Christ are condemned. But it doesn't say that.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

This is possible because God operates in eternity and not in time. God only deals with man in the construct of time.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

John 6:63 [FONT=&quot]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

[/FONT]

 

[Magenta]

I am still waiting on Sister Magenta to provide the post where I stated faith and repentance are not necessary for salvation. I have asked her at least twice and she's failed to do so.

When ppl can not refute your position, they then slither into smear tactics. Sad. Really really sad.

I have refuted your position. You are just too blind to see it, and sink into the muck of your aspersions rather than deal with the facts. The facts? Yes, let us look to see what the facts of this matter are. My first post in this thread was words from the mouth of Jesus as He was dying on the cross at Golgotha:

“Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.” (Post #43)

Your completely un-Biblical, inane response: Then those who slayed Him are in heaven. (Post #44)

My response to your silliness below, from post #47:

If they repented and believed, yes, they are covered by the blood of Christ

Another inane post from you followed in post #49:

No. He said, "Father, forgive them." So, by going by your first post, the Christ asked the Father to forgive them, so they are in heaven.

Just following your logic.

Unless the Father did not forgive them even though He said to?

Which is it?

You said "NO" to if they repented and believed,
they would be covered by the blood of Christ!

Your logic is faulty but you refuse to acknowledge it and try to stick your lack of understanding and twisting of Scripture onto me, and then act as if I am supposed to waste my time arguing with your inability to be honest. You failed to acknowledge the need for repentance and belief, which I pointed out to you (post #54),

I find it disturbing that you fail to acknowledge the necessity of repentance and belief Such an omission also translates into a shocking lack of logic, as well as a failure to build doctrine line by line, precept upon precept.

What do you do? You twist what was said and ask me to show you saying something I did not claim you said, and falsely accused me as if I deny that Christ's purpose for incarnating was the Father's will.

Show where I said repentance and faith are not necessary. They are both gifts of God.

What I am driving out is that your stance on what the Christ is errorenous. Those who crucified Him were fulfilling the Father's will.

Post #80: Show me where I said it was not the will of God Jeepers, I have seen you so many times deny that faith and repentance are necessary by claiming that if Christ died for all, then all would be saved. It is a bit late for you to be pretending this is not your stance.

Your stance is that if Christ died for all, then all would be saved. That is an erroneous illogical stance that fails to acknowledge the need for repentance and belief unto salvation. I am sorry you are too blind to see it.

Now stop telling lies on me

 

[Muzungu256]

I find it disturbing that you fail to acknowledge the necessity of repentance and belief Such an omission also translates into a shocking lack of logic, as well as a failure to build doctrine line by line, precept upon precept.

i can promise u brother SovereignGrace does acknowledge the necessity to repent and believe!!!!!!!!!!!
is this even something to be debated u see???? its clear. he has spoken on it many times. this is just weird.

 

[BillG]

What I find intersting is when people talk about repenting.
Repenting from this and repenting from that.
Dont drink, don’t smoke (saying over here) what do you do? So if we do then we need to continually repent.

We know Jesus said that he must go back to the Father so the Holy Spirit must come to convict the world of its sin.
That sin was and is unbelief in him.

In Churches today the norm tends to be that Jesus died on the cross for your sins. All the things that separate you from God.
Sins of the flesh as such.

I am not saying Jesus did not hang on the cross for such sins, in fact he did.
But he also hung on that cross, to forgive them, died and rose again then went back to the Father so the Holy Spirit would come.

To convict us of the sin of unbelief.

Jesus summed up the 10 commandments in 2. Love God and love your neighbours.

If a person has come to faith in Jesus then to me they have repented (changed their mind with a view to change) of unbelief and also sins of the flesh and not loving God and our neighbours.

If that is the case then is not repentance a one time event?
If so then is it now about sanctification and cofessing (agreeing with God we got it wrong) and asking for help?

 

[Magenta]

i can promise u brother SovereignGrace does acknowledge the necessity to repent and believe!!!!!!!!!!!
is this even something to be debated u see???? its clear. he has spoken on it many times. this is just weird.

I see you are not a proponent of logic, either.
Let me put it to you in terms you may understand.

If you claim that 2 + 2 = 5, you are denying that 2 + 2 = 4.
Four is NOT five. Four and five are mutually exclusive.

In the same way, to say that if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world necessarily means that everyone would then be saved, is to deny the requirement of repentance and belief for salvation. If you had followed the conversation, you would understand, but I do not think you truly seek understanding. You often come at me with some weird angle/attitude.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only
for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[notuptome]

Yes. Agreed.

That's not the condemnation that is being spoken of.

So no, no one is in fact both saved and condemned simultaneously. Otherwise it would say All men regardless of believing in Christ are condemned. But it doesn't say that.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Paul wrestled with the old nature which was at war with the new nature.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

Let me fix the Bible so everyone can agree to it.

Matt. 20:1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard."
Version 1: He hired everyone in the town because they had free will.

Version 2: He hired all of them whether they chose to come or not.

Version 3: Hired is a strong word. What if they got to choose what conditions they wanted? Does the landlord even get to choose who works for him? Isn't that up to each person to choose? And if they don't feel like working, they still deserve the denarius, right? And what if they're allergic to grapes or simply don't like fruit flies? Can't they do something else instead? How about picking daisies? Oh, that requires leaning over. What about if they just take the money and don't work at all? It's their choice, right? God doesn't really hire people. He certainly doesn't elect people. He's not limiting people, people get to choose. What if we choose to do something else? He already has the payment (atonement) all figured out. People set the terms, not God. "Hire?" "Elect?" Preposterous!

Version 4: I'm not really a Calvinist or an Arminian, so how about you people stop being all mean because I'm just here to tell you what I think, and then God will love me, because that's all he does, and I get to go to the glorious permanent-vacation because I say I believe God, so deserve it.

Version 5: 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’8 “So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it,they complained against the landowner,12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”Sometimes it feels like the Bible should be a "Choose your own adventure" book.

 

[preacher4truth]

I find it disturbing that you fail to acknowledge the necessity of repentance and belief

The above is unequivocally false. Not sure why it is you pull this nonsense on others, but you do.

Now stop telling lies on me

The onus is on you to do this as apparently SovereignGrace is under your bearing of false witness upon his person. You need to put an end to this practice of yours.

 

[preacher4truth]

I see you are not a proponent of logic, either.
Let me put it to you in terms you may understand.

In other words "Allow me insult your intelligence."

If you claim that 2 + 2 = 5, you are denying that 2 + 2 = 4. Four is NOT five. Four and five are mutually exclusive.

Drivel...

In the same way, to say that if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world necessarily means that everyone would then be saved,

Which would be true, because the dying is specifically for the elect, which is for whom he died for, and no other, andwhich secures their salvation.

Gospel accomplished.

If he then died for the whole entire world, for every single person who ever lived, then all would be saved, because part of that accomplishment would mean all would come to faith and repentance as per 2 Peter 3:9 which is, contextually, only applicable to the elect for whom he died.

Thus we, and SovereignGrace believe repentance and faith are necessary.

is to deny the requirement of repentance and belief for salvation.

Your comprehension and understanding of the Gospel is sorely lacking and your accusation is false. It doesn't take much logic to readily dismantle your error and expose your false accusations.

If you had followed the conversation, you would understand, but I do not think you truly seek understanding. You often come at me with some weird angle/attitude.

Belittling, unnecessary drivel.

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

You don't understand the passage nor the extent of the atonement.

 

[garee]

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Paul wrestled with the old nature which was at war with the new nature.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen... He died like all the saints... not receiving to new incorruptible body. He who promises if he has begun the good work of salvation will finish to the end (our new bodies) giving us a living faith that could never die. It surpasses all human understanding.A hope that rises above human hope.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by Muzungu256

i can promise u brother SovereignGrace does acknowledge the necessity to repent and believe!!!!!!!!!!!
is this even something to be debated u see???? its clear. he has spoken on it many times. this is just weird.

As always he is the cause... the new creatures the effect. The work does not say to the Potter you have no understanding. turning things upside down,

No man can comfort(repent)themselves unless the Comforter first turns them towards Him not see. He does the turning us toward Him so that then we can comfort ourselves knowing he has forgiven all of our iniquities.

I will offer what I think the scripture defines ...what it means to repent.

I who was accustomed to being yoked to the bondage of sin in a living hope am trusting he does all the work of salvation or none.So that then we can be sorry.

I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
Surely after that I was turned, "I repented"; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.Jer 31:18

Strongs lexicon... 05162 nacham {naw-kham'}a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

It would seem the word turn must be used with the word repent. The Comforter does more that just teach us, he also brings to mind that which he has. It turn us when we deny him

He himself repents by having mercy.

Exodus 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.


Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.


Jeremiah 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.


Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.


Ezekiel 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.


Ezekiel 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?


Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

 

[garee]

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Who is the "all men" referring to? Only the elect or all men? Is Christ the Saviour of only those that believe? Or is Christ the Saviour of the whole world?

I would say we cannot trust Him not seen unless he first gives us something to trust in.

I would offer He is the Savior of the whole world and not just the Jewish or Christian world . Just as Satan deceives the whole world and not just Jewish or the Christian world. Satan is the god of all the false religions. Jesus does not teach universal ism...

As many as the father gave to the Son they alone will come to the father .

Christ is the Savior of those that he gives faith to, called the "hearing of faith" (His) by it and through it they can believe, him who has no form, without it no man could believe God not seen.

Our new faith that comes with our new spirit that will never die gives us a new heart.Not the seat of our imagination in respect to our old. .He create the new heart according to His three day labor of love.

It is the free gift not of ourselves lest any boast in false pride. It works in us to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed righteousness )

Previously as human faith, the things not seen. Faith, which scripture call no faith was only possible after the the imaginations of ones own heart . Like those in Noah's time. The flood came like a thief of the night taking them by surprise
They were not given a watching spirit of faith that alone comes from hearing God . Even though Noah knew not the day or the hour it did not take Him by surprise he was watching daily for God to perform His promise. .

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

[Laish]

Reformed and Calvinist are not synonymous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ok then I don’t know what to say here . I go to Reformed congregations and the say their Calvinist,and then to Calvinist congregations and they say their Reformed. This is not some congregations but all I have visited. What gives then ? Yea I am sure you can find something on the net to refute that . It is still the experience most will have . Then agian I probably can find someone selling a football bat on the net too .
Blessings
Bill

 

[UnderGrace]

Is the repentance and belief from God or does it originate in the person?

Of course you cannot remove these because they are in the scripture.

So which is it?

i can promise u brother SovereignGrace does acknowledge the necessity to repent and believe!!!!!!!!!!!
is this even something to be debated u see???? its clear. he has spoken on it many times. this is just weird.

 

[Nehemiah6]

... As many as the father gave to the Son they alone will come to the father...

Garee,

Instead of simply regurgitating what Calvinists consider to be their mainstay, why don't you explain -- from Scripture -- how Christ can be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, and yet His atonement is limited only to the elect?

Looks like Calvinists believe in a God who contradicts Himself. On one hand He commands all men everywhere to repent, and on the other hand -- according to Calvinists -- He bars their entrance into Heaven by His so-called "degree". So explain this Scripture which you have quoted in view of the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself said this:

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

How do you explain this without regurgitating your dogmas?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If that is the case then is not repentance a one time event?

Yes it is a single event when a sinner is converted. But that does not mean that the saints -- who are never altogether sinless -- must not repent while confessing their sins daily. It is the false teaching of the Hyper Grace preachers which claims that they have no need for further self-examination, confession and repentance.

If so then is it now about sanctification and confessing (agreeing with God we got it wrong) and asking for help?

It is about both sanctification and maintaining fellowship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Kindly study 1 John, chapters 1 & 2 (addressed to believers and saints).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

surely you can see that 1 Tim 4:10 can't mean, when harmonized with the rest of the Bible, that Christ actually saves all men?

idk... seems pretty clear to me.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

idk - doesn't take too much exegesis to see that "who is the Savior of all men" means that he is the savior of all men - specifically of those that believe, i.e. have faith. I just don't get people's definition of faith - faith is trust, it is to be fully persuaded of something or in something. Is this the stance: God MAKES us believe and we do not have to make a conscience decision to believe?

Doesn't take too much exegesis to see that if one does not believe they are condemned, if one believes then one is born again, i.e. promised eternal life. Doesn't take to much exegesis to see that when scripture says the WHOLE WORLD - the WHOLE WORLD is meant.

Seems this is the process: And you were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy spirit . . . which is in harmony with "Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God." So, upon hearing the word of God, we became fully persuaded that the word preached was indeed the gospel of our salvation - we trusted that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and confessed him as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead and we were sealed, i.e. saved.

 

[notmyown]

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

idk - doesn't take too much exegesis to see that "who is the Savior of all men" means that he is the savior of all men - specifically of those that believe, i.e. have faith. I just don't get people's definition of faith - faith is trust, it is to be fully persuaded of something or in something. Is this the stance: God MAKES us believe and we do not have to make a conscience decision to believe?

Doesn't take too much exegesis to see that if one does not believe they are condemned, if one believes then one is born again, i.e. promised eternal life. Doesn't take to much exegesis to see that when scripture says the WHOLE WORLD - the WHOLE WORLD is meant.

Seems this is the process: And you were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised holy spirit . . . which is in harmony with "Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God." So, upon hearing the word of God, we became fully persuaded that the word preached was indeed the gospel of our salvation - we trusted that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and confessed him as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead and we were sealed, i.e. saved.

hi, PB. has literally everyone ever born heard the Gospel? are literally all men saved? if Christ is the Savior of the whole world in a saving sense, why do people die in their sins?

i'm not sure what you're saying, i guess. you include the need to believe, but still insist the whole world is saved? do i have that right, or maybe not?
God doesn't make us believe, in the way i think you mean it, but He has to grant us the gift of faith... it's a gift!

 

[John146]

hi, PB. has literally everyone ever born heard the Gospel? are literally all men saved? if Christ is the Savior of the whole world in a saving sense, why do people die in their sins?

i'm not sure what you're saying, i guess. you include the need to believe, but still insist the whole world is saved? do i have that right, or maybe not?
God doesn't make us believe, in the way i think you mean it, but He has to grant us the gift of faith... it's a gift!

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Who is the all men directed at? Specially of those who believe...who are they?

Obviously in the context, all men are not saved, but Jesus is their Saviour. Those who are saved are those who believe.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

hi, PB. has literally everyone ever born heard the Gospel? are literally all men saved? if Christ is the Savior of the whole world in a saving sense, why do people die in their sins?

i'm not sure what you're saying, i guess. you include the need to believe, but still insist the whole world is saved? do i have that right, or maybe not?
God doesn't make us believe, in the way i think you mean it, but He has to grant us the gift of faith... it's a gift!

But they will: Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. And if they don't "hear" they are still without excuse . . . (Romans 1)

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

The ones who die in their sins are those who do not believe in Jesus Christ. God created us as independent individuals and has set before us a way to come to him - that is through faith (trust/belief) in Jesus Christ. We all know and believe "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) It seems that where we disagree is HOW we get "faith" (belief).

God grants us the gift of faith - It is by God's grace, God's unmerited favor, that any of us are saved - For while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly - that is God's grace - It is by God's grace through faith (faith/belief in whom?) by which we are saved and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - what is the gift of God? Salvation, the new birth - we, by no means created that new creation in us . . . God did upon our belief in his Son.