The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[garee]

Incorrect conclusion produced by an incorrect view of grace. God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all.

Lu 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The all must be defined. For instance all the pickles in one barrel do not make up all the pickles in the ten barrels .as many in 1 make up one tenth of the all.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them (alone)gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

If he calls all he saves all (universalism)

 

[Grandpa]

LOL. I didnt twist anything, I said whosoever believes which is what the verse states, the only reason you highlighted that part of the message is to nitpick it apart.

Whosoever believes is saved, yes?

The one who does not believe is not saved, yes?

Conclusion: The one who does not believe, his sins are not atoned for, YES?

That is correct.

The one who does not believe his sins are not atoned for.

Therefore limiting the atonement to only believers.

Extremely simple. Just like the rest of the Gospel.

John 3:18 [FONT=&quot]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[/FONT]Can't be condemned if his condemnation is already atoned for.

I guess the case for universalism is also ruined by this same passage. Sorry Universalists...

 

[John146]

That is correct.

The one who does not believe his sins are not atoned for.

Therefore limiting the atonement to only believers.

Extremely simple. Just like the rest of the Gospel.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Can't be condemned if his condemnation is already atoned for.

I guess the case for universalism is also ruined by this same passage. Sorry Universalists...

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He's condemned because he didn't believe.

 

[Rokurac]

There is a third alternative which is -- Unlimited Atonement effective only for those who obey the Gospel.

Yes. Now the ones who dont obey the gospel.
Is the atonement "Unlimited" for them too?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If he calls all he saves all

That is definitely not what the Bible teaches. The call is to all, but salvation is only to those who repent and believe.

THE CALL IS TO ALL
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

SALVATION ONLY FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

DAMNATION FOR THOSE WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[notuptome]

Do you think the 'whosoever will' is everyone or not everyone?

If you think it is everyone then you have chosen A.

If you think it is not everyone then you have chosen B.

When what people say does not agree with what you say then change what they say and tell them what you say they are saying.

Not universal and not limited atonement. Election or predestination does not dictate salvation. Grace dictates salvation and the result is predestination unto eternal life in Christ.

Not all the elect is elect in Christ. Not all of Israel was saved even though Israel is Gods elect.

Grace is mercy and mercy is pity for those who are in need of mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes. Now the ones who dont obey the gospel.
Is the atonement "Unlimited" for them too?

It is indivisible, inexhaustible, sufficient in itself to cover the guilt of all the sins that will ever be committed on earth. This is the blessed sense in which the Apostle John says (1st Epistle ii. 2): "Christ is the propitiation (the same word as expiation) for the sins of the whole world.... (R.L. Dabney, Calvinist).

We should never confuse the extent of the atonement with the application of the atonement to only those who obey the Gospel. But even Dabney confused the two. And therein lies the error.

 

[notuptome]

The all must be defined. For instance all the pickles in one barrel do not make up all the pickles in the ten barrels .as many in 1 make up one tenth of the all.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them (alone)gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

If he calls all he saves all (universalism)

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God does not think like you for which we are grateful.

I knew neither grace nor mercy till God revealed it to me in Christ when He saved me from my sins when I deserved not grace nor mercy but eternal condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

When what people say does not agree with what you say then change what they say and tell them what you say they are saying.

Not universal and not limited atonement. Election or predestination does not dictate salvation. Grace dictates salvation and the result is predestination unto eternal life in Christ.

Not all the elect is elect in Christ. Not all of Israel was saved even though Israel is Gods elect.

Grace is mercy and mercy is pity for those who are in need of mercy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So you can't choose between Everyone is saved and Not Everyone is saved?

Or you are afraid of the implication of your choice?

Maybe you are a Calvinist and you don't even know it yet... lol


One petal down 4 to go....

 

[Grandpa]

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God does not think like you for which we are grateful.

I knew neither grace nor mercy till God revealed it to me in Christ when He saved me from my sins when I deserved not grace nor mercy but eternal condemnation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So you already know about Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Irresistable Grace.

How do you feel about the Perseverance of the Saints?

 

[notuptome]

So you can't choose between Everyone is saved and Not Everyone is saved?

Or you are afraid of the implication of your choice?

Maybe you are a Calvinist and you don't even know it yet... lol


One petal down 4 to go....

So you already know about Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, and Irresistable Grace.

How do you feel about the Perseverance of the Saints?

I have a biblical understanding of the TULIP not a Calvinistic perspective.

Each pedal has a biblical application just not according to the modern Calvinistic religion.

A saved person can never become unsaved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

I have a biblical understanding of the TULIP not a Calvinistic perspective.

Each pedal has a biblical application just not according to the modern Calvinistic religion.

A saved person can never become unsaved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If you don't believe in Universalism then you completely understand the Calvinistic perspective.

I suppose I am the same way. I have a biblical understanding of TULIP but I don't go to a Calvinistic church or have anyone teaching me about Calvinism. I just understand it how it is presented biblically.

Which perhaps isn't exactly Calvinistic.

 

[notuptome]

If you don't believe in Universalism then you completely understand the Calvinistic perspective.

I suppose I am the same way. I have a biblical understanding of TULIP but I don't go to a Calvinistic church or have anyone teaching me about Calvinism. I just understand it how it is presented biblically.

Which perhaps isn't exactly Calvinistic.

Nobody is a Calvinist until after they become saved and start learning religion at church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Muzungu256]

Nobody is a Calvinist until after they become saved and start learning religion at church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

everyone is a calvinist when God saves them.......... then they start bragging about their decision making skills? those idiot friends of mine just havent made a smart choice yet.

 

[Johnny_B]

Crooked generation being the generation that killed Jesus, thats the context. But how come there is an exhortation, how come Peter tells them to do something? Peter probably didnt know about the TULIP, rookie mistake!

He shoulda said "Maybe God will save some of you from this crooked generation". Or "Maybe God will grant some of you folks repentance and faith and belief".

Yall need a new bible translation that says that. Maybe some older manuscripts will be discovered soon to make that happen. I dont like how these current ones read, cant be right that someone would make a DECISION to get saved or God forbid receive Christ or repent. We all know thats works salvation, and its not of works remember.
Chances are Christ didnt even die for your sins specifically, its luck of the draw.

Grace lottery

So which translation do you use that teaches, crooked generation, is salvation from God's wrath? That is the best example of reading into the Scripture your own personal doctrine. But that's one thing about you, you never seem to use Scripture.

You are the prime example of an Arminian, they only talk about what they think is wrong with the Doctrines of Grace, but never post Scripture as to what is right about what they believe. But what I find especially sad is you are saying that the Lord calling those to Himself, is a lottery. When grace is the unmerited favor of the Lord, the Lord is the one who gives the grace and not a lottery or anything man cn do to gain it.

Can you post the Scriptures that teach that "crooked generation" means salvation from God's wrath? Not sure if you realized this or not but Peter did not say those two things together. Acts 2:38-40

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are
afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

Not only are they quoted seperately, notice the quotation marks, but there is a chapter brake as well, so Peter is not saying them together, as in save yourself from the wrath to come.

But I will wait from the Scripture teaching that "crooked generation" mean the judgement of the Lord or salvation of the Lord.

 

[preacher4truth]

So which translation do you use that teaches, crooked generation, is salvation from God's wrath? That is the best example of reading into the Scripture your own personal doctrine. But that's one thing about you, you never seem to use Scripture.

He's not interested in exegesis of Scripture or Biblical doctrine that is derived therefrom.

What he is interested in is the slander of others who are and who do derive doctrine in this manner.

 

[garee]

Not universal and not limited atonement. Election or predestination does not dictate salvation. Grace dictates salvation and the result is predestination unto eternal life in Christ.

Yes his limited grace is according to His exclusive work of faith. It is limited to His mercy giving new eternal spirit life where none existed beforehand .

He who is of one mind and always does does what so ever His soul pleases.For he who is in us perform that which he appoints to us. (Imputed righteousness). He has mercy on whom he has mercy. Mercy is what makes our new heart soft. He creates new creatures not reconditioning the old.

Not all the elect is elect in Christ. Not all of Israel was saved even though Israel is Gods elect.

Not all of Israel are elected. Only those who are given a new Spirit of Christ and new spirit of faith (born again.) If any man has not the Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Him

Grace is mercy and mercy is pity for those who are in need of mercy.

Amen

 

[Laish]

Nobody is a Calvinist until after they become saved and start learning religion at church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually I found out I was Reformed before I went to church. When looking for a congregation I discovered that the Reformed congregations lined up with scripture the best.
Blessings
Bill

 

[garee]

That is definitely not what the Bible teaches. The call is to all, but salvation is only to those who repent and believe.

THE CALL IS TO ALL
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

SALVATION ONLY FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved

DAMNATION FOR THOSE WHO WILL NOT BELIEVE
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

No man can come (impossible) unless the father is drawing them to repent and if they do come he will in no wise cast those new creatures out.

The disciples who were offended they murmured then walked away in unbelief .No faith

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me "draw him": and I will raise him up at the last day.Joh 6:43

 

[Snoozy]

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me "draw him": and I will raise him up at the last day.Joh 6:43

thats true. but doesnt the bible also say God draws all?

john 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.