An Increase of Cessationists and Legalists (CC)

[Dan58]

I appreciate the straightforwardness of your statement, which included no accusations or berating of others.

Thanks, I reckon its possible to have an opinion without insisting your right . I remember years ago when I read and believed I knew exactly what certain verses and passages meant, only to learn later that I was completely clueless. Its a constant learning process and everyone is at different stages.

In order to be absolutely certain about anything, you have to know everything.. There's only one that meets that qualification, and it sure ain't me

 

[heartofdavid]

Still encouraging divisiveness. You are making a call for others to engage more "debate" to push your idea of truth.
Meanwhile the "other" side says you are teaching false doctrine. And the merry go round of the BDF continues its legalism and atrocities.
When people read the BDF they either engage, becoming part of the problem, or they run screaming in terror. Never do i hear people changing your minds.
And hiding behind "it already exists" doesn't negate the fact that you are encouraging division. The BDF is way more destructive than useful. The only people not seeing that are the ones too busy trying to be right and using God as their justification for their ungodly behavior.
Whether killing sinners or tearing people down verbally online the mentality is the same.

Uh,no,he is not on your side of the debate.
Stop defining his heart.
You obviously don't know him.

 

[DJ2]

If this were really true then the Holy Spirit would not have said (through David) regarding Scripture: The LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT converting the soul (Ps 19:7).

Both the Old and the New Covenants have laws, injunctions, and commandments. But Christians are being fed a false Gospel and a false concept of Legalism, by people who should know better. It is one thing to falsely believe that one can be justified by the works of the Law. It is quite another thing to promote the false idea that Christians do not need rules, regulations, laws, and standards based upon God's requirement for them to be holy. While we depend upon the Holy Spirit to make us holy, the Holy Spirit Himself tells us to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12). So we examine the things of this world -- ungodliness and worldly lusts -- and determine to avoid them, as well as the works of darkness.

Your post is quite accurate. We may disagree on what the standards are but not their existence.

 

[heartofdavid]

If this were really true then the Holy Spirit would not have said (through David) regarding Scripture: The LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT converting the soul (Ps 19:7).

Both the Old and the New Covenants have laws, injunctions, and commandments. But Christians are being fed a false Gospel and a false concept of Legalism, by people who should know better. It is one thing to falsely believe that one can be justified by the works of the Law. It is quite another thing to promote the false idea that Christians do not need rules, regulations, laws, and standards based upon God's requirement for them to be holy. While we depend upon the Holy Spirit to make us holy, the Holy Spirit Himself tells us to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12). So we examine the things of this world -- ungodliness and worldly lusts -- and determine to avoid them, as well as the works of darkness.

Ok,maybe you didn't notice you left out any position of grace in your post.

The points you make about legalism are partial truths.
Legalism can be subtle. It thrives in mans heart.it is incubated outside of grace. A legalist is unaware of it's influence.
But someone grace centered is repeled immidiately by that dogma.
What happens is, the legalist has installed in himself a default mode. It is performance DRIVEN. Performance, mainly of others.

Correction is the mainstay. Performance correction.

So,what is NT default mode? Love. Basically, the gifts in operation.

IOW, if left to itself,the christian believer will most likely gravitate the wrong way.

Enter the HOLY SPIRIT.
The bible says,"the letter killeth,but the spirit gives life".

The antidote to legalism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

You think legalism is confined to the Law?
Think again. Peter had to be rebuked openly over circumcision. Yes a Jewish ordinance policeman.

A christian legalist is a christian policeman.
.....all about performance.
If performance is your banner, yep you are indeed a legalist.

 

[heartofdavid]

Talk about subtle.
Back in the late 80's the charismatic wave was receeding big time. The wave was so huge though,the residual was so strong, the churches could get away with coasting along in the spirit.
Well they developed a exercise they called a clap offering.
I refused to participate. I got rebuked.
Well, it seems something else happened,because they only did it once,and they apparently got rebuked by the HOLY SPIRIT.

See how it works?

Without the power,we are walking in human déception

 

[beastslayer1970]

ok, well then it's answered.

Stonesoffire,
As I posted to dcon. I do not take friend requests on chat baords.

It should not break fellowship and certainly no hurt or offense was implied or meant. I just do not do it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Stonesoffire,
As I posted to dcon. I do not take friend requests on chat baords.

It should not break fellowship and certainly no hurt or offense was implied or meant. I just do not do it.

no problem. I think there's an option though that you can change on your profile that won't allow a request to be made.

I think you will still be on my page though. If that's a problem let me know. Alls well.


Nope, not there.

 

[PHart]

Hello Ben. It seems the opposite in my tiny space on this planet. Sure seems to be true that legalism and the 'thou shalt' and thou shalt not' thought is rampant. But it seems to be getting very popular for the "signs and wonders" crowd.

And from my studies it is not "cessationism." It is 3 temporary gifts that will cease. All others(gifts) are in place and function in the Church.

Supernatural knowledge will be done away.

Supernatural prophecy will be done away.

supernatural tongues will cease.

These temporary gifts, that 'filled in the gaps' for incomplete doctrine at the time, would cease when 'the faith' was completely revealed through His written word to us.

And to be technically honest from my studies tongues ceased on their own accord. So they ceased before supernatural knowledge( to witness/evangelize properly without a complete scripture) and prophecy( to teach complete doctrines of the faith without the completed scriptures.)

My wife and I got saved at the same time in 1986. We got hooked up with a Full Gospel church right down the street. Eventually we went forward for the baptism of the Spirit.

One morning sometime after that she told me she spoke in tongues. And I was shocked. I don't remember all the details, but from the other side of the shower curtain (she was in the shower) she started talking in tongues! Now you have to trust me on this but I assure you, given her personality and all, and how it sounded, she was not faking it.

I've heard a lot of tongues in the church, and I pretty much know fake tongues from real tongues. And I guarantee you she had the real thing. Sadly, of all people who really needed that self edifying gift, she did not like the way it sounded and chose not to walk in the gift.

I did not receive the gift of tongues at the laying on of hands for the Baptism of the Spirit. But I know they are real, not only from my wife's experience, but from something that happened to me. One morning at that same church we were all in deep worship in the middle of the song set (the way it used to be done in Charismatic churches, but let's not go there, lol) just before the falling of the Spirit (some of you old timers may know what I'm talking about) and something in my head said 'open your eyes'. I was already looking up but had my eyes closed. So I opened my eyes and I saw these clear, shimmering waves coming down from the ceiling towards the congregation. The instant they touched the heads of the congregation everybody burst out in an explosion of tongue speaking. They all had their eyes closed, and yet it was simultaneous.

So I know the gift of tongues has not ceased. What has ceased is people's faith to receive the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. And the more we teach the body of Christ that they do not exist anymore, the more people in the church will not receive those gifts, and the more the church will say, "See? They have ceased."

 

[PHart]

Talk about subtle.
Back in the late 80's the charismatic wave was receeding big time. The wave was so huge though,the residual was so strong, the churches could get away with coasting along in the spirit.
Well they developed a exercise they called a clap offering.
I refused to participate. I got rebuked.
Well, it seems something else happened,because they only did it once,and they apparently got rebuked by the HOLY SPIRIT.

See how it works?

Without the power,we are walking in human déception

I can't think of too many quicker ways to extinguish the felt presence of the Holy Spirit in worship than to start clapping. The church seems not to know this because I'm guessing, on the whole, they have never experienced the felt presence of the Holy Spirit in worship. If they did they would not be clapping during worship and destroying the moment.

 

[PHart]

So,what is NT default mode? Love. Basically, the gifts in operation.

Having felt very not baptized in the Holy Spirit after going forward (as explained in a post above) God taught me that the gift you have been given will flourish if you first nurture love for others in you by the Holy Spirit. Your love for others will draw the power of the Spirit out of you in the expression of your particular gift.

Talk about dynamos! (however you spell it, lol). When you love others with godly love and seek to reach out to them in that love, the explosive dynamite of the Spirit bursts forth and, and, well........just try it folks. Pray for it and give it a whirl.

 

[heartofdavid]

no problem. I think there's an option though that you can change on your profile that won't allow a request to be made.

I think you will still be on my page though. If that's a problem let me know. Alls well.


Nope, not there.

I will triple friend you.

Lord give her a fresh touch from heaven
Amen

 

[stonesoffire]

My wife and I got saved at the same time in 1986. We got hooked up with a Full Gospel church right down the street. Eventually we went forward for the baptism of the Spirit.

One morning sometime after that she told me she spoke in tongues. And I was shocked. I don't remember all the details, but from the other side of the shower curtain (she was in the shower) she started talking in tongues! Now you have to trust me on this but I assure you, given her personality and all, and how it sounded, she was not faking it.

I've heard a lot of tongues in the church, and I pretty much know fake tongues from real tongues. And I guarantee you she had the real thing. Sadly, of all people who really needed that self edifying gift, she did not like the way it sounded and chose not to walk in the gift.

I did not receive the gift of tongues at the laying on of hands for the Baptism of the Spirit. But I know they are real, not only from my wife's experience, but from something that happened to me. One morning at that same church we were all in deep worship in the middle of the song set (the way it used to be done in Charismatic churches, but let's not go there, lol) just before the falling of the Spirit (some of you old timers may know what I'm talking about) and something in my head said 'open your eyes'. I was already looking up but had my eyes closed. So I opened my eyes and I saw these clear, shimmering waves coming down from the ceiling towards the congregation. The instant they touched the heads of the congregation everybody burst out in an explosion of tongue speaking. They all had their eyes closed, and yet it was simultaneous.

So I know the gift of tongues has not ceased. What has ceased is people's faith to receive the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. And the more we teach the body of Christ that they do not exist anymore, the more people in the church will not receive those gifts, and the more the church will say, "See? They have ceased."

Theres more than tongues that involves speaking Phart. When I asked Holy Spirit to fill me at Explo '72, I felt a wind "step" into me. What I received was worship. Almost on a continual basis for a period of time. It was out of worship, that tongues began.

It began with tongues and prophecy in the beginning. You can take this with a grain of salt, but I would say it's the laying on of hands that will release this in you. If you ask, He gives. We receive just like salvation.

 

[stonesoffire]

I will triple friend you.

Lord give her a fresh touch from heaven
Amen

Thank you ! God bless you!

 

[Mercy4u]

So I know the gift of tongues has not ceased. What has ceased is people's faith to receive the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. And the more we teach the body of Christ that they do not exist anymore, the more people in the church will not receive those gifts, and the more the church will say, "See? They have ceased."

Tongues' are very real. And operating today.

Just not biblical tongues' IMO.

I don't deny the reality of tongues today. I seriously question the validity of them though.

IMO. Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Israel(This people) that God was about to discipline them severely. When the discipline came,the sign ceased.

1 Cor 14

20Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature. 21In the Law it is written, “BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME,” says the Lord. 22So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

Isa 28

11Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue, 12He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary,”
And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen. 13So the word of the LORD to them will be,
“Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,”
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.(70ad the discipline was administered)


14Therefore, hear the word of the LORD, O scoffers,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,

 

[beastslayer1970]

My wife and I got saved at the same time in 1986. We got hooked up with a Full Gospel church right down the street. Eventually we went forward for the baptism of the Spirit.

One morning sometime after that she told me she spoke in tongues. And I was shocked. I don't remember all the details, but from the other side of the shower curtain (she was in the shower) she started talking in tongues! Now you have to trust me on this but I assure you, given her personality and all, and how it sounded, she was not faking it.

I've heard a lot of tongues in the church, and I pretty much know fake tongues from real tongues. And I guarantee you she had the real thing. Sadly, of all people who really needed that self edifying gift, she did not like the way it sounded and chose not to walk in the gift.

I did not receive the gift of tongues at the laying on of hands for the Baptism of the Spirit. But I know they are real, not only from my wife's experience, but from something that happened to me. One morning at that same church we were all in deep worship in the middle of the song set (the way it used to be done in Charismatic churches, but let's not go there, lol) just before the falling of the Spirit (some of you old timers may know what I'm talking about) and something in my head said 'open your eyes'. I was already looking up but had my eyes closed. So I opened my eyes and I saw these clear, shimmering waves coming down from the ceiling towards the congregation. The instant they touched the heads of the congregation everybody burst out in an explosion of tongue speaking. They all had their eyes closed, and yet it was simultaneous.

So I know the gift of tongues has not ceased. What has ceased is people's faith to receive the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. And the more we teach the body of Christ that they do not exist anymore, the more people in the church will not receive those gifts, and the more the church will say, "See? They have ceased."

I do not believe tongues is the "initial" evidence or any other kind of evidence of speaking in tongues at all.

I believe the Love of God shed abroad by the Holy Spirit is the direct evidence of being Baptized in the Holy Spirit. The ongoing evidence is the yoke destroying, burden removing, life changing power of God that manifests upon you for service in the Kingdom.

Without Love you will never, ever receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is really all abut being anointed with Power and the Holy Spirit.