Billy Graham, Charles Finney and Pelagius

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Dec 12, 2013
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#61
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I for one believe Mr. Graham has brought a great many to Christ.

[SUP]Mark Chapter 9

38 [/SUP]And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For he that is not against us is on our part.
I think most would agree....especially in his younger years..........but in all fairness....he has stated and done some things that were not biblical and actually quite contrary......not dissing him just being honest with the facts.....

In a say Solomon was the same way....in his younger years very solid and as he aged he began to do things that were contrary....
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#62
I attended First Baptist Church of San Francisco while John Steater was Pastor there. 1968-71.

John Streater introduced Billy Grahm to Ruth while they were at Wheaton College together.

I was attending Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary at the time of the first Oakland crusade of the 70s decade; and Pastor Streater served on the Executive committee of that crusade. Since Pastor Streater was mentoring me at the time, I got to attend most of the executive committee meetings.

I was at the time very distressed at the ecumenicism I observed. Catholics were not only allowed to participate,; but, seekers were referred to Catholic churches 2-1 over evangelical churches. I was also distressed that Jesus as Savior was stressed over Jesus as Lord: as if they could be regarded as separate.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#63
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is not moving people to confess their sins, repent and turn to God?

What do you propose as an alternative?
i'm saying that emotional crowd manipulation is not tantamount to the moving of the Spirit and that self-imposed behavior modification is not equal to redemption.

 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#64
i'm saying that emotional crowd manipulation is not tantamount to the moving of the Spirit and that self-imposed behavior modification is not equal to redemption.
Undoubtedly this is happening in many situations. But there is also the other side of the equation where there is a genuine moving of the Holy Spirit and genuine repentance and salvation. When Jonathan Edwards preached his famous sermon, was that "crowd manipulation"? It is best to leave these matters in the hands of God, since only God see what is real and what is fake.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#65
Undoubtedly this is happening in many situations. But there is also the other side of the equation where there is a genuine moving of the Holy Spirit and genuine repentance and salvation. When Jonathan Edwards preached his famous sermon, was that "crowd manipulation"? It is best to leave these matters in the hands of God, since only God see what is real and what is fake.

the case however is that we have a man ((Mssr. Finney)) who actually argued for and employed decidedly manipulative tactics, thinking ((and saying)) that by purposefully shaping the feelings of his audience he could 'save' anyone - apart from the drawing of God - by cleverness and careful emotional coercion. he specifically set out to manipulate crowds, with the philosophy that this is what should be done. and he became a pioneer & role model.

this is how he comes to be called 'the father of revivalism'

is that good?


enter: pragmatism.
should we do this?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#66
he could 'save' anyone - apart from the drawing of God - by cleverness
* with the definition of 'save' here being verbal assent to a scripted statement followed by some measure of behavior modification contingent on willpower.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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#68
I see Bill Graham as a great man of God who has probably lead more people to Christ than every one on this site combined. Maybe we should thank God for men who take the simple message of the Gospel to thousands of sinners for the single purpose of leading them to Christ.

Thank God for each of his messengers, and I pray that he will continue to raise up people with a deep desire to lead others to Christ.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#69
Forget Finney and any other people for a moment and think about the central issue, i sez.
Here's 25 selected inspirational quotes giving the most acceptable image of Finney, he sez.

*sigh*
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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#70
I may have this wrong, but I thought the lord had his commandments written on our heart, so people in these deep tribal situations would know there is a god and know how to follow him, with out having scriptures in their possession. Like the tribe of the Andaman Island, who no one has been able to contact.

OOPS...... Those commandments are written into the hearts and minds of remnant Israel sometime in the future.

Paul tells us everybody on earth has be told about the Gospel. If they do not know, it is because they were taught a false religion down through the years.

Of course there are those people that tell us it was impossible to tell everyone during that time.? I think I had rather in Paul's BOOK what Jesus told him to write. How about you.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
#71
I attended First Baptist Church of San Francisco while John Steater was Pastor there. 1968-71.

John Streater introduced Billy Grahm to Ruth while they were at Wheaton College together.

I was attending Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary at the time of the first Oakland crusade of the 70s decade; and Pastor Streater served on the Executive committee of that crusade. Since Pastor Streater was mentoring me at the time, I got to attend most of the executive committee meetings.

I was at the time very distressed at the ecumenicism I observed. Catholics were not only allowed to participate,; but, seekers were referred to Catholic churches 2-1 over evangelical churches. I was also distressed that Jesus as Savior was stressed over Jesus as Lord: as if they could be regarded as separate.

Speaking to this subject...I saw a video that is probably date 2 years ago and republished this year. regardless of the date, it tells us all the coming One World Government that is spoken of in the Bible. It appears we closed that I first thought.

The Rising of a One World Religion.
....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7m4QVsxoS4
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#72
I attended First Baptist Church of San Francisco while John Steater was Pastor there. 1968-71.

John Streater introduced Billy Grahm to Ruth while they were at Wheaton College together.

I was attending Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary at the time of the first Oakland crusade of the 70s decade; and Pastor Streater served on the Executive committee of that crusade. Since Pastor Streater was mentoring me at the time, I got to attend most of the executive committee meetings.

I was at the time very distressed at the ecumenicism I observed. Catholics were not only allowed to participate,; but, seekers were referred to Catholic churches 2-1 over evangelical churches. I was also distressed that Jesus as Savior was stressed over Jesus as Lord: as if they could be regarded as separate.
yep I read some article, Billy and Franklin were close to catholic

Billy Graham's Catholic Connection

Billy and Franklin Graham Were Seduced by the Vatican and Their Counterfeit Gospel – Soul Refuge
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#73
I participated in the BG Crusade in Vancouver in 1984. I was stationed on the second floor, instructed to send people down to the main floor. I had been a Christian for 4 years. I was naive, to say the least.

I have told this story before, so if you have read it, feel free to pass on it. I was also on the follow up committee for those who had made a "decision" for Christ. We had 100 people for our group of 10 to disciple. We were each given 10 names and phone numbers, of people who made "decisions." We were to phone them, get them into a Bible study with the BG evangelist association. And, to funnel them into a church, preferably ours, although many different denominations were represented. They didn't care which church, just so long as it was a church.

Not one person of my 10 was interested in any follow up, or even accepting a Bible I offered out of my own money. I went to the head of our division, in our neighborhood, discouraged at my failure. She said, not one person in the 100 she was overseeing wanted to follow up. And in fact, almost no one of the thousands who went up, in the whole Lower Mainland of British Columbia was following through.

The Billy Graham Association noted that they perceived the problem, and they were going to make changes. I followed some of his Crusades later on TV, to see the changes, maybe 10 years later, and literally not one thing in the entire program had changed. Even the same songs being sung. Same message, same decisions being made. And probably no one following through.

Why did they not follow up, all those people who supposedly made a decision for Christ? Well, because they were there because of either wanting to see the famous man, a friend who badgered them to go, or maybe a curiousity seeker. But, the well orchestrated program brought the expected thousands to the front. And many cards signed, recorded as a win for the Kingdom of God.

In fact, I do not believe the majority of these people, out of thousands and thousands were in any way, shape or form saved. No, I am not the judge, but a person who goes forward under a well orchestrated emotional appeal, signs a card, without really knowing what they are doing, and totally rejects walking with Christ is probably not saved.

I admit, I became discouraged with this kind of decisional regeneration. I came to call it, "putting my Get-Out-Of-Hell free" card in my back pocket. I guess I can pull it out one day, like maybe Judgement Day, to say I am safe?

I don't know if BG started out a believer with a call to evangelise and went off track, like his friend Charles Templeton, who walked away from God, totally. Or perhaps BG's foundation was not right to begin with, either! But God knows!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#74
Billy Graham was good at keeping it simple "You must be born again"

He did indeed lead many to Christ


I see Bill Graham as a great man of God who has probably lead more people to Christ than every one on this site combined. Maybe we should thank God for men who take the simple message of the Gospel to thousands of sinners for the single purpose of leading them to Christ.

Thank God for each of his messengers, and I pray that he will continue to raise up people with a deep desire to lead others to Christ.
 
Sep 14, 2017
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#75
this is what a great number of "sermons" in America are patterned after. the faith, the church, Christianity was not always this way. they called it the 'great awakening' -- and IMHO it was a great falling asleep. now, some people recognize that we are one of the most, if not the most Biblically illiterate generations of believers since the crucifixion and resurrection. that's the fruit. and it's not just 'we don't know the scripture' - it's 'we don't see Christ in the scripture' and worse, we don't even look for Him. hundreds of thousands of people in this country think they are 'saved' because they gave a verbal assent to something never adequately explained & repeated a scripted statement during an emotionally charged moment once in their life, and 'redemption' to them means little more than as much self-imposed behavior modification as their willpower allows.

that's the legacy of 'the great awakening' in America, to my eyes.

is that good?
I guess you don't like George Whitefield either then, do you?
It's sad people don't understand real revival. They think after a revival people ought to be good for at least 30-40 years afterward, when in fact the opposite is true.
Read thru the OT about revivals in Israel. You will find the same thing, it doesn't last long enough to make it to the next king.
The reason that happens is that it rains on the just & the unjust, and because people get "temporarily changed" due to lack of commitment, they will slide back into a worse condition because they don't stick with it.
It goes in cycles... always has, always will.
What happens in the end? The messenger is blamed when the people won't commit.
Showing a lack of responsibility & accepting the blame is what's always been wrong, no matter who preaches it.
Yep, shoot the messenger.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#76
I guess you don't like George Whitefield either then, do you?
It's sad people don't understand real revival. They think after a revival people ought to be good for at least 30-40 years afterward, when in fact the opposite is true.
Read thru the OT about revivals in Israel. You will find the same thing, it doesn't last long enough to make it to the next king.
The reason that happens is that it rains on the just & the unjust, and because people get "temporarily changed" due to lack of commitment, they will slide back into a worse condition because they don't stick with it.
It goes in cycles... always has, always will.
What happens in the end? The messenger is blamed when the people won't commit.
Showing a lack of responsibility & accepting the blame is what's always been wrong, no matter who preaches it.
Yep, shoot the messenger.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

Some falling away in 30 or 40 years? Did you not read what I said? Hardly any followed through 3 or 4 days later! It was a pressured, emotional decision. It was made not because they were touched by the Holy Spirit, but because they were touched by music, presentation and speeches from a famous man. Perhaps it did work in the beginning, back in the 1950's, when people knew the gospel, a lot more than they did 30 years later. Or maybe almost none in the 50's were saved either. Although I have read of people being saved and actually following through from the early days.

I am sure there was a small minority that were saved. But, the fact is, if they were called of God, they didn't need a fancy stadium and music and a pep talk to get saved. Just the gospel. The real gospel!

What concerns me, is how many of those people who made decisions for Christ, but were not truly saved spent the rest of their lives being comfortable, thinking they were going to heaven, when in fact, they never knew God! How many were actually hindered by the wrong information from actually seeking God, finding out what they needed to do to be saved? (Acts 2:37-38) Maybe they never again heard the truth about Jesus. And that is why I am so bothered by what I actually saw at the Billy Graham Crusade.

I was on board! I believed it was the way to reach people. Yet, I saw more people come to Christ in my neighbourhood simply by my being friends, explaining the gospel, and giving them a Bible, then I did in that whole area of people who went to the Crusade. And the people I led to the Lord, I discipled, studied the Bible with them and got them into a church. I did not save them! God did! But, I used biblical methods, as far as I was able. Oh yes, I prayed for them both before they came to Christ and after. I think I that was also vital.
 
Sep 14, 2017
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#77
Angela dear, I wasn't pointing that towards you, I assure you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#79
BTW, Whitfield had a part in what they call 'first great awakening' and Finney what they call 'second great awakening'

i'm pretty sure you are missing my point.