Billy Graham, Charles Finney and Pelagius
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thanks; it's a subject that's tossed about in my mind for a long time, being refined.
Having read your post, I'm surprised that "believe-only' folks weren't jumping all over the very fact you pointed out.
If salvation is a "believe-only" thing...then what are the actions of walking down the aisle, raising your hand, and/or reciting a "sinner's prayer"... except WORKS?
That is quite a superficial way to look at this issue. Responding to the Gospel through faith and repentance cannot be considered works. So everything you have mentioned is simply a response to the Gospel. It is similar to Christ telling those fishermen to drop their nets and follow Him, and their doing so immediately. Were they saved by works because they responded to Christ? When Levi/Matthew the tax collector dropped everything to follow Jesus, was that a work, or was it a response of faith?
When the Gospel is preached, people are exhorted to respond to the Gospel. John the Baptizer exhorted people in the same fashion. That is perfectly legitimate, whether they raise their hands, walk down the aisle, or say the sinner's prayer. You seem to imply that this is all illegitimate, whereas it is not. But you will generally hear Reformed Christians mocking at this, even though they have no Scriptural basis for their mockery.
Having said that, there are many things which Billy Graham (for example) did which were completely illegitimate, such as involving Catholic clergy in his crusades, and failing to direct new believers strictly to Bible-believing churches which would provide for believers' baptism, and teach Bible truth and Gospel truth rather than Catholic or other doctrine.
As to attempting to connect Mr. Graham with Charles Finney and then to Pelagius, that is simply an attempt to smear Christians. We should have better things to occupy us than smear tactics.
When the Gospel is preached, people are exhorted to respond to the Gospel. John the Baptizer exhorted people in the same fashion. That is perfectly legitimate, whether they raise their hands, walk down the aisle, or say the sinner's prayer. You seem to imply that this is all illegitimate, whereas it is not. But you will generally hear Reformed Christians mocking at this, even though they have no Scriptural basis for their mockery.
Having said that, there are many things which Billy Graham (for example) did which were completely illegitimate, such as involving Catholic clergy in his crusades, and failing to direct new believers strictly to Bible-believing churches which would provide for believers' baptism, and teach Bible truth and Gospel truth rather than Catholic or other doctrine.
As to attempting to connect Mr. Graham with Charles Finney and then to Pelagius, that is simply an attempt to smear Christians. We should have better things to occupy us than smear tactics.
Since you bring it up, the testimony of Christ includes His judgments on evildoers and ungodliness. The testimony of Christ during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah were His fiery judgments. If you cannot see that, then you are seeing only half the picture. The entire book of Judges is a condemnation of a nation which was NOT under God. So the testimony of Christ was the subjugation of the Israelities by the Philistines over and over again. Now let me ask you if this Scripture is a testimony of Christ or not?
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
And the LORD struck Benjamin before Israel, so that the sons of Israel destroyed 25,100 men of Benjamin that day, all who draw the sword.
(Judges 20:35)
(Judges 20:35)
He is not "absent"
He is present, and working: and His working is salvation, redemption, the destruction of sin and the preservation of His chosen ones.
You continue to keep missing the point. God was absent from the hearts and minds of the Israelites.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. (Judges 2:11-13)
Otherwise the Book of Judges would have shown righteousness, godliness, harmony, and true worship. What we see there is the exact opposite, so was Satan running the show or God? Even the destruction of Benjamin was essentially contrary to the will of God for the 12 tribes.
11 And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim:
12 And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.
13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. (Judges 2:11-13)
Otherwise the Book of Judges would have shown righteousness, godliness, harmony, and true worship. What we see there is the exact opposite, so was Satan running the show or God? Even the destruction of Benjamin was essentially contrary to the will of God for the 12 tribes.
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To be honest, my implication wasn't that those actions aren't valid. Each obviously accomplishes something. My implication was that there really isn't a "believe-only" salvation (if it includes any action by the person, including confession.). It's always "belief-plus the required action(s)"... the disagreement just arises over what is required in the "plus actions" part. Whether we call those actions or works really doesn't matter to me. They're still in addition to belief...and they're still required.
"Whether they're conscious of it or not, they're part of the body of Christ." Srsly? No wonder our churches are in such the hot mess they're in.
I was watching a Billy Graham crusade from Houston from 1981. I was helping my wife in the kitchen, so I didn't get to hear the whole message, but what I heard of it, it sounded pretty solid. He preached on the cross, repentance, the need of forgiveness of sin, &c. As it was going off, he had given his alter call, and as the credits were rolling down the screen, they were showing ppl coming down from their seats, and some were smiling and nudging each other as they were coming forward. That's just awful. You mean to tell me that ppl who are coming to the Christ are horsing around? When the Lord got a hold on me, man, I was a wreck. I was bawling like a baby, seeing I had offended a thrice holy God. I guess conviction of sins means different things to different folks.
I was watching a Billy Graham crusade from Houston from 1981. I was helping my wife in the kitchen, so I didn't get to hear the whole message, but what I heard of it, it sounded pretty solid. He preached on the cross, repentance, the need of forgiveness of sin, &c. As it was going off, he had given his alter call, and as the credits were rolling down the screen, they were showing ppl coming down from their seats, and some were smiling and nudging each other as they were coming forward. That's just awful. You mean to tell me that ppl who are coming to the Christ are horsing around? When the Lord got a hold on me, man, I was a wreck. I was bawling like a baby, seeing I had offended a thrice holy God. I guess conviction of sins means different things to different folks.
*DISCLAIMER* NOT SAYING ALL who are in the SBC are like this or sold out to these things.......I know there are some who are solid on the truth.
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Ohhhhh!! I had not heard this. Anything to elicit a response I guess.
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I for one believe Mr. Graham has brought a great many to Christ.
[SUP]Mark Chapter 9
38 [/SUP]And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For he that is not against us is on our part.
I for one believe Mr. Graham has brought a great many to Christ.
[SUP]Mark Chapter 9
38 [/SUP]And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]For he that is not against us is on our part.