Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[eternally-gratefull]

That's easy. God chooses us and makes us alive.

Well-maybe that is easy to you. But I would rather like to stick to what I see the word says, And this is not adequate. This is just an opinion. I do not wish to base my eternal life based on opinions.


To me the Bible saysdthere is a process. Things Ike redemption, Justification, Regeneration, Salvation. All all these things fit together to make a person a child of God.

Just saying God elected us and thats it does nto explain the process.

The [/B]gift of repentance is the first act in God saving us.

Yep. But it is not Gods repentance, it is yours. You must repent, or you will remain in your sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well before you are born again EG

when you sin

(assuming you are not yet a new creature)

then youre now a "sinner"

and your name that is in the book of life

will be blotted out


UNLESS you are covered by the imputed righteousness of Jesus



(
Exodus 32:33 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book)


Revelation 3:5
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.




1 John 5:4
“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

That faith grows and grows and grows.and the more it grows. The more our lives start to resemble the saviors.. As we see God at work in our lives.. Our faith is still based on the work of god. Not on our selves.

 

[posthuman]

People are not absolutely spiritualy dead as Calvinists misinterpret the Scriptures.

so you're sticking with a person can be spiritually dead but not really. spiritually, death doesn't really mean death; it's only like stubbing one's toe & having a limp, or a touch of ague. maybe Genesis is a bad translation, and what God meant is that if they ate of the tree of knowledge they would just have a bit of a bellyache. maybe the serpent was right, "you will not surely die" you'll just get a headache.

are you familiar at all with substance dualism and the continuity of germplasm?

If man was absolutely spiritualy dead then we wouldn't read such things as this:
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign Lord .
Ezekiel 14:14 NLT

not sure why you think this has anything to do with what we're discussing.
could you please explain how dead doesn't mean dead is proven by the fact that the presence of these three men - who were not spiritually dead at all - in idolatrous Israel would not dissuade the LORD from working judgement against her?

this directly refers to the presence of righteous Lot in Sodom, and how Sodom was not spared on account of him, but he was removed from it, and Sodom was judged. worse than Sodom! the LORD declares. even if these three men renowned among the Hebrews for their righteousness were among her, He would not relent! the dead in Ezekiel 14 are not Noah , Daniel and Job. the dead are the elders who have been faithless and set up idols in their hearts ((Ezekiel 14:3)) -- and guess what? the presence among them of three of the most righteous men they could think of wouldn't make them alive! dead is dead! those three who have life would not cause the dead to be alive. dead is dead.

 

[Jimbone]

Well-maybe that is easy to you. But I would rather like to stick to what I see the word says, And this is not adequate. This is just an opinion. I do not wish to base my eternal life based on opinions.


To me the Bible saysdthere is a process. Things Ike redemption, Justification, Regeneration, Salvation. All all these things fit together to make a person a child of God.

Just saying God elected us and thats it does nto explain the process.




Yep. But it is not Gods repentance, it is yours. You must repent, or you will remain in your sin.

He is not saying it's Gods repentance,
2 Tim 2:24-25
24 And a servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome, but he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, and forbearing. 25 He must gently reprove those who oppose him, in the hope that God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
He grants us our repentance from what I read here as well,
Acts 5:31
"He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."
Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

I think this one clearly implies it was the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

I agree with so much of what you're saying, but on this matter I truly believe that my repentance was 100% a gift of God to me.



Again I agree with so much of what you are saying, I really think the difference is more a matter of perspective than our "beliefs", but in this matter of repentance I do feel it is pretty clear God is the source of that, without Him we couldn't "get there". However I also believe we live in time/space and from our perspective it seems we choose, or exercise some part in coming to Him, but I think it's also clear that we do NOTHING in regard to receiving salvation at all, including repentance. That's how I see it anyway, but I believe God is absolutely sovereign over EVERYTHING, which I'm sure we all will agree with, but it helps to look up the definition of sovereign. Do you truly believe God is sovereign over EVERYTHING, even what you can't understand?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

No he is not a slave to sin in chapter 7, A slave has no choice, he has to do what his master says, thats why I said, He clan not do what is right or follow the spirit if he is presalvation.

chapter 6 Paul states a point’

CHapter 7 Paul states there is still a battle

Chapt4er is is how we resolve the battles.

But he is. He expressly says so. In ch 6 he said a Christian is no longer a slave to sin which makes this guy Paul is talking about in ch 7 not a Christian. Read the Bible:

...The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
Romans 7:14 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/rom.7.14.NLT

 

[Nehemiah6]

While the scripture teaches that the just shall live by faith it is not our faith.

I am not disagreeing what what you have said but Scripture does say that "The just shall live by HIS faith" (meaning the faith of the one who is justified).

Habakkuk 2:4


King James Bible
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Westminster Leningrad Codex
הִנֵּ֣ה עֻפְּלָ֔ה לֹא־יָשְׁרָ֥ה נַפְשֹׁ֖ו בֹּ֑ו וְצַדִּ֖יק בֶּאֱמוּנָתֹ֥ו יִחְיֶֽה׃

yiḥ·yeh be·’ĕ·mū·nā·ṯōw
בֶּאֱמוּנָת֥וֹ יִחְיֶֽה׃
shall live by his faith

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Read the Book of Hebrews. It sure does!

No, it doesn't.

 

[preacher4truth]

"In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely only need a band-aid, and maybe some neosporin." - Genesis 2:17, Pelagian version.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Peachy keen. So you deserve it.

Then you don't need God, because you saved yourself.

Not anymore than a homeless person eating in a soup kitchen says he fed himself.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, it doesn't.

What a childish response...

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Oh, I do get AG and CC aren't fond of Calvinism. BUT, Devo says he was trained in AG, and goes to CC, and yet he doesn't even understand what he was trained in. Neither teach the crap he's laying down as "fact." He's got his own very-special beliefs that absolutely no other denom or nom have.

He's saying he was trained in something while proving even that training didn't stick with him.

Point it out. But you can't because you're just making a baseless drive-by personal attack.

 

[posthuman]

You are misinterpreting those verses you posted because none of them say man is absolutely spiritually dead. I have shown you from the OT only 4 examples of people who were not absolutely spiritually dead and you ignored them.

you have brought us citations of people who are alive, not people who are dead.

if you want to back up the idea that dead doesn't mean dead in spiritual terms, you need to show us how in Eden Satan was correct and God was wrong. show us an example in scripture of someone proclaiming the risen Lord Christ while their heart is full of evil. show us wickedness being declared righteousness. to back up your claim, you need to show us in scripture where sons of Belial are simultaneously called the children of God. you need Cain to kill Abel and concurrently present an acceptable sacrifice. you need there to be no cherubim and flaming sword at the gates of the garden.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's easy. God chooses us and makes us alive.




The [/B]gift of repentance is the first act in God saving us.

Of course, and it's perfectly biblical. But they're not going to believe that! They claim Soli Deo Gloria but don't really believe that at all. God chooses, and that is a fact, and he hasn't chosen each and every person who ever lived and leave it up to their free will vote.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

you have brought us citations of people who are alive, not people who are dead.

if you want to back up the idea that dead doesn't mean dead in spiritual terms, you need to show us how in Eden Satan was correct and God was wrong. show us an example in scripture of someone proclaiming the risen Lord Christ while their heart is full of evil. show us wickedness being declared righteousness. to back up your claim, you need to show us in scripture where sons of Belial are simultaneously called the children of God. you need Cain to kill Abel and concurrently present an acceptable sacrifice. you need there to be no cherubim and flaming sword at the gates of the garden.

The Bible never says OT saints were regenerated. That's just you reading the Bible with your Calvinist colored glasses.

 

[tourist]

At this moment in time, every single person who has posted on this thread has disagreed with Devo. Every. Single. Person. Whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist. Whether WoFer or not. Every. Single. Person.

So, of course, we're all wrong and he's all right.

Apparently, we're all lost and deceived and only he is capable and spiritual enough to show us the way, his way of course, but not God's.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, they were saved because they had faith in the promised Messiah. The Holy Spirit as a regenerative agent didn't appear until Pentecost in the 1st cent AD. But that doesn't fit your Calvinist order of salvation so you have to make up stuff like OT people were regenerated BEFORE they could do anything pleasing to God.

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.[1 Timothy 1:3-7]

True love of God comes from a pure heart, a heart transformed by His effacacious grace wrought in their heart. The OT saints were saved, had faith in their God, loved Him. None of this is possible unless they had the new birth.

But this sums you up to a tee..."They want to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confindently affirm."

I had you pegged from scat. You are unteachable, and you have zero clue about the very doctrine you are teaching here. You're just like what Jacob prophesied about Reuben, "You are as stable as water."

 

[BillG]

In my view the above is wrong, wrong, wrong.
One is born “saved”. You lose your “saved” status by your unjust works.
You can on the other hand be forgiven if you repent.

Can you define 'unjust works please'

 

[posthuman]

The Scriptures never say that. You are making Christ's death unnecessary If OT people were already regenerated.

you're making God temporally confined if He was unable to reveal Himself and show mercy to mankind before He walked among us in the form of flesh. "The Well of Living Water" is before all things.

 

[posthuman]

Job, " I KNOW my redeemer LIVES!"

Not will some day live. I think it's fair to say OT redeemed are saved by believing in Christ, same as us.

"they drank of the same Spiritual Rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ"

amen

 

[DevotiontoBible]

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.[1 Timothy 1:3-7]

True love of God comes from a pure heart, a heart transformed by His effacacious grace wrought in their heart. The OT saints were saved, had faith in their God, loved Him. None of this is possible unless they had the new birth.

But this sums you up to a tee..."They want to be teachers of the Law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confindently affirm."

I had you pegged from scat. You are unteachable, and you have zero clue about the very doctrine you are teaching here. You're just like what Jacob prophesied about Reuben, "You are as stable as water."

I know exactly what I am saying. Calvinists say regeneration happens before someone has faith and that is backwards from Biblical truth.