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L
No, that was not what your point. You were clearly stating the following in your last 2 sentences: 'God does not start the work, you must first obey the gospel for God to start working in you. God does not randomly chose people to work in so they can then be in the gospel.'
With regard to the new point that you made, it's actually the other way around. Your keeping of His Gospel is the evidence that it was God who has started the good work in you and therefore will finish the good work in you. Why is it so hard?
With regard to the new point that you made, it's actually the other way around. Your keeping of His Gospel is the evidence that it was God who has started the good work in you and therefore will finish the good work in you. Why is it so hard?
There is a KJV that reads
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
I have always taken this scripture as showing a process of events in a Christians life in that we are renewed daily. "Are" is current like right now. "Become" is like a developing within.
There is another version I have that reads
"Whoever therefore is in Messiah is a new creature; old things have passed away; and all things are made new by Elohim (plural for God) who has reconciled us to Himself by Messiah." (The anointed One)
Being born again is the very beginning of a new life, not the finishing of a situation. God bless
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
I have always taken this scripture as showing a process of events in a Christians life in that we are renewed daily. "Are" is current like right now. "Become" is like a developing within.
There is another version I have that reads
"Whoever therefore is in Messiah is a new creature; old things have passed away; and all things are made new by Elohim (plural for God) who has reconciled us to Himself by Messiah." (The anointed One)
Being born again is the very beginning of a new life, not the finishing of a situation. God bless
God does not randomly choose some people out of the blue and work in them so they can then obey the gospel. That puts moral culpability upon God making God at fault for those He is not working in. YOU must first choose to obey the gospel THEN God works in you. If YOU do not choose to obey the gospel then God is not working in you at that is YOUR fault and failure, not God's.
I am not going to add to anyone's speculations, just two cents as food for thought. As a jew, it would be surprising if the thief on the cross was not baptized. John's baptism or the baptisms prior to it. And, if baptized, can we be sure that he fell away, could it not be that he had committed the crimes prior to his baptism and hearing about the Kingdom? Certainly he knew about the Kingdom as per his words to Christ, he also knew his own sin and did not justify it. He had obviously been instructed and had some knowledge.
The thief had better knowledge about Christ than some of Christ's own disciples. From the context in Luke, the thief knew there is a God and God is to be feared. He knew he was guilty yet knew Christ was innocent. He knew that Christ's death was not going to be the end of Christ. He knew that Christ was to have a kingdom and saw his need to be in that kingdom. Again, this does not prove he was a disciple he had heard or been taught about Christ as you said.
If God must first work in a person before that person can then obey the gospel, then you are putting fault, blame, culpability upon God for all those that do not obey the gospel.
God had begun that good work in those Philippians for they had first obeyed the gospel. The gospel tells man to believe and when men believe then God is working in them. Not the other way around, God does not first work in a person to enable that person to believe. You say yourself " it is God who begins the good work in believers" God works in those that ALREADY believe.
Again, some of those in Galatia had left the gospel, Gal 1:6,7 and God was no longer working in them. God worked in them for keeping the gospel and quit working in them when they quit obeying the truth/gospel, Gal 3:1; 5:7.
You understand so little about Gods grace. God has concluded them all (all men) in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32
God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Men refuse to come to God because they love their evil deeds. John 3:18-21
Jesus said no man comes to Me except the Father draw him. He also said that if He be lifted up He would draw all men unto Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Men refuse to come to God because they love their evil deeds. John 3:18-21
Jesus said no man comes to Me except the Father draw him. He also said that if He be lifted up He would draw all men unto Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
L
No, I didn't and that doesn't automatically mean that. Human live in sins and enjoy sins until God starts the work. When God starts the work, the live of the saved men maybe two steps forward and three steps back, but the difference is that men do no longer enjoy sins, instead he hate himself in falling to the sins.
You are wrong, the obedience of the Phillipians to the Gospel is the proof that God is working in them. You are accursed, sorry. It was Paul who said that, inspired by God, that it was God who begins the work in a man. The resurrection of Lazarus by Jesus describes the issue greatly. When Lazarus is dead, can Lazarus hear the word of Jesus? Will Lazarus response and believe in Jesus? No, Jesus had first supernaturally resurrected Lazarus then He call Lazarus to come forth. The same case with sinner, sinners are dead in spirit and will not come to God. Holy Spirit start the works in men by 'resurrecting' the spirit of men and only then He call men to repent and believe. That's the full gospel.
I read Galatians chapter 1, 3 and 5. None points out your conclusion at all. In contrary, such men were actually never been saved to start of with, as mentioned in 1 John 2:19. So again, your claim is contrary to what Paul said in the Philippians and may be blaspheming God. God will not fail the Good Work that He has started on the men He saved. But according to your false gospel, God worked in some men for keeping the Gospel but later on quit working in them just because they quit. That tells much that the god you worship is a weak god. My God is not weak. He is omniscient and omnipotent, and once He started the Good Work in a saved men, He will make sure that He will finish such Good Work as well.
May the Lord's mercy be upon this forum
You are wrong, the obedience of the Phillipians to the Gospel is the proof that God is working in them. You are accursed, sorry. It was Paul who said that, inspired by God, that it was God who begins the work in a man. The resurrection of Lazarus by Jesus describes the issue greatly. When Lazarus is dead, can Lazarus hear the word of Jesus? Will Lazarus response and believe in Jesus? No, Jesus had first supernaturally resurrected Lazarus then He call Lazarus to come forth. The same case with sinner, sinners are dead in spirit and will not come to God. Holy Spirit start the works in men by 'resurrecting' the spirit of men and only then He call men to repent and believe. That's the full gospel.
I read Galatians chapter 1, 3 and 5. None points out your conclusion at all. In contrary, such men were actually never been saved to start of with, as mentioned in 1 John 2:19. So again, your claim is contrary to what Paul said in the Philippians and may be blaspheming God. God will not fail the Good Work that He has started on the men He saved. But according to your false gospel, God worked in some men for keeping the Gospel but later on quit working in them just because they quit. That tells much that the god you worship is a weak god. My God is not weak. He is omniscient and omnipotent, and once He started the Good Work in a saved men, He will make sure that He will finish such Good Work as well.
May the Lord's mercy be upon this forum
How or upon what basis does God use to decide which men He will or will not begin a good work in?
Whose fault is it if God does not work in a particular individual? God's fault or the individual's fault?
Nothing in the context indicates God started working in those Philippians BEFORE they heard, obeyed the gospel.
Gal 1:6,7 they could not be removed from the gospel if they were NEVER in the gospel.
Gal 3:1 they could not quit obeying the truth if they NEVER obeyed the truth.
Gal 5:4 they could not be fallen from grace (past tense) if they were NEVER in grace.
Clearly they were Christians that believed but had fallen away yet nowhere does Paul say God would continue that good work in them.
1 Jn 2:19 does John say they were NEVER of us or they were not of us at the time that went out?
Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"
Acts 15:5 says these Pharisees "believed" so these Pharisees were among them at the church at Jerusalem. Yet in verse 24 these Pharisees proclaiming the false teaching that one must be circumcised to be saved "went out from us"
Whose fault is it if God does not work in a particular individual? God's fault or the individual's fault?
Nothing in the context indicates God started working in those Philippians BEFORE they heard, obeyed the gospel.
Gal 1:6,7 they could not be removed from the gospel if they were NEVER in the gospel.
Gal 3:1 they could not quit obeying the truth if they NEVER obeyed the truth.
Gal 5:4 they could not be fallen from grace (past tense) if they were NEVER in grace.
Clearly they were Christians that believed but had fallen away yet nowhere does Paul say God would continue that good work in them.
1 Jn 2:19 does John say they were NEVER of us or they were not of us at the time that went out?
Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"
Acts 15:5 says these Pharisees "believed" so these Pharisees were among them at the church at Jerusalem. Yet in verse 24 these Pharisees proclaiming the false teaching that one must be circumcised to be saved "went out from us"
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