2Timothy 1:9

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree reed with you, although that's not quite what I was getting at.

You and I both know that our works contribute nothing to our salvation, and that any attempts to do so is futile. But good works in and of themselves do not detract from God's grace regarding salvation. I see them as 2 different entities.

Thats where we differ. I do not see them any different.

If I am doing any deed, morally good or not (according to human standard) and doing them for self gain (gaining/keeping salvation, earning praise of men, looking good etc etc) I am doing a carnal work. A work of human good etc etc.

The defenition of religion as I see it is "earning Gods praise by doing good works" In which case I would ask, What could we possibly do to earn gods praise when we so righteously earn Gods condemnation. And not one iota more than that, ANYTHING we receive from God is of grace, whether it be salvation or a house, a spouse, a job, a car, whatever it may be, Nothing can ever be earned (even our rewards scripture says we will return to the feet of Christ, because we are not worthy)

 

[valiant]

The verse says NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, He has saved AND called us ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE AND GRACE.
Why do you introduce our works of any kind into that verse?

So God is forcing us into this grace? Do we have a choice not to respond?

You have a false idea of grace. Grace is not some magical powder with which we are sprinkled in order to be saved. Grace is God acting in unmerited favour and love. It is GOD Who personally saves by His direct action.
You have a choice to respond, but if God acts by His grace you have no choice not to respond

Can the prince of this world through the lust of the flesh blind our hearts to so great a gift?

He does it to the large majority of people. See 2 Cor 4.4-6.

He did save all and call all into his eternal purpose, but do all chose to respond to his grace through hope faith and love? And if no, why not?

God made provision for salvation for all and offered salvation to all, but He did not save all.

The word 'called' has two meanings in Scripture. The first is a general appeal - 'many are called, but few are chosen'. The second is an effectual call, 'Who has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace'. The first is to all, The second is to those whom He chooses who are revealed by the fact that they respond.

Do not some choose to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season? I thank God for his amazing grace thatmade and thinks of me as his offspring. I don't know to what or where to go if not for God's unfathomable love and workings in my life. I have disobeyed God to much , but he has not thrown me away. If I turn back to him ,he is faithful and cannot deny himself.

Amen.

But look how many don't, for what ever reason, receive this unmerited gift of eternal life. Many would get into predestination .at this point. Some thing I have thought about but is beyond me. I still beleive we have a choice in shared love.

It is a mistake to contrast predestination and choice. Whoever God predestinates, they choose to come to Him. He 'works in us to will and do of His good pleasure' (Phil 2.13).

The scripture is full of vs. warning of falling away, being deceived, the last being worse than the first. lusting after evil things, and the consequenses of lust conceiving and bringing forth sin, and when finished death eternal.

The warnings are necessary in order to guide our lives. But those who are His are kept by Him so that they do not go astray (John 10.27-28; 1 Cor 1.8; Phil 2.6). If they do He seeks them UNTIL He finds them. (Luke 15.4).
.

Even in God's creation we see choice and consequenses to actions. We reap what we sow.

Thank God salvation reverses that situation. When we are His we reap what HE sows.

And all things do work for good to them that love God I do love God and adore him for his perfect plan .I feel I can lean on Jesus, and nothing can separate me from his love, accept maybe me.

The Bible says 'NOTHING' it does not say 'nothing except me'. Thank God that the One Who is responsible for my salvation is no longer me, it is my Saviour.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Self works without God's works is vain. A faith that isn't accompanied by works is just as dead as works that isn't accompanied by faith. God's way involves 2 things (faith and works), and our own isolated way involves only 1 thing (works) all by itself.

To GOD it's Faith in CHRIST alone for salvation and after salvation good works are done because we show our faith by our works.

 

[KohenMatt]

Thats where we differ. I do not see them any different.

If I am doing any deed, morally good or not (according to human standard) and doing them for self gain (gaining/keeping salvation, earning praise of men, looking good etc etc) I am doing a carnal work. A work of human good etc etc.

The defenition of religion as I see it is "earning Gods praise by doing good works" In which case I would ask, What could we possibly do to earn gods praise when we so righteously earn Gods condemnation. And not one iota more than that, ANYTHING we receive from God is of grace, whether it be salvation or a house, a spouse, a job, a car, whatever it may be, Nothing can ever be earned (even our rewards scripture says we will return to the feet of Christ, because we are not worthy)

So if I give a guy on the side of a road a lift to the gas station but the Holy Spirit has not lead me to do that, God is displeased?

I've thinking about this question since last night, but if we truly are God's, is there any good work we can do that is void of the Holy Spirit? John 15:5 says that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. (honest question here)

 

[ember]

Oh well, I tried. The legalists have suceeded in derailing with their law bait.

No crossnote...they have not derailed anything but their own thinking

I praise God for the truth of the word that God has given to us

The simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ begins our journey but the Holy Spirit pulls back the curtain for those who want to enter in and fellowship with God

God has called us and He has determined both the reason and the way....we cannot take away from His glory and we cannot undo what He has already done

I say walk in the Spirit and appreciate both the beauty and the truth of the word and put on some 'bug spray'

 

[ember]

But the topic was 2Tim 1:9 ..I didn't see a law/grace topic in that. It is all unconditional grace. There are three here who managed to bait the rest.

Listen...if no one else paid attention and sat up, I did and that is scripture I am familar with!

But I see I am not the only one...so....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if I give a guy on the side of a road a lift to the gas station but the Holy Spirit has not lead me to do that, God is displeased?

I've thinking about this question since last night, but if we truly are God's, is there any good work we can do that is void of the Holy Spirit? John 15:5 says that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. (honest question here)

No, That has nothing to do with it, If there is a guy on the road, God tells us to help.

The question is, what was your fraim of mind, God, give me the strength and tools to serve this guy as you desire, for I can not do it on my own, and do not want to mess it up..and I do not expect on thing in return.

Or, I will help this guy, and get many rewards for it (both temporal and eternal)

What is your motivation.

 

[ember]

What you fail to see is that James was talking about being seen as justified BY THE EYES OF MEN. He was not talking about being justified before God. God does not need to see works to know whether faith is genuine or not.

ya hoo! and we have a winner!


DING! DING! DING!

and amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So if I give a guy on the side of a road a lift to the gas station but the Holy Spirit has not lead me to do that, God is displeased?

I've thinking about this question since last night, but if we truly are God's, is there any good work we can do that is void of the Holy Spirit? John 15:5 says that apart from Jesus, we can do nothing. (honest question here)

by the way, you did not answer the question, I will pose it again.

What could we possibly do to earn gods praise when we so righteously earn Gods condemnation. And not one iota more than that, ANYTHING we receive from God is of grace, whether it be salvation or a house, a spouse, a job, a car, whatever it may be, Nothing can ever be earned (even our rewards scripture says we will return to the feet of Christ, because we are not worthy)

 

[crossnote]

by the way, you did not answer the question, I will pose it again.

What could we possibly do to earn gods praise when we so righteously earn Gods condemnation. And not one iota more than that, ANYTHING we receive from God is of grace, whether it be salvation or a house, a spouse, a job, a car, whatever it may be, Nothing can ever be earned (even our rewards scripture says we will return to the feet of Christ, because we are not worthy)

And thus 'eternally-gratefull'

 

[ember]

That as a brother in the Lord, the Holy Spirit gives me strength to do all things. Or do you automatically infer that anyone who keeps any part of the the law does so void of the Holy Spirit?

No...the Holy Spirit does NOT give you strength to do ALL things!

let's look at that verse in context:

10I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

Paul was speaking about God giving him sufficiency to live by His Spirit regardless of the circumstances

The verse does NOT mean we pick and choose and then God gives us the strength and it most assuredly does not mean He gives us strength to keep any or all parts of the law....anyone who imagines themself capable of doing such a thing, is under the curse of the law and does not understand what Christ has fullfilled YOUR obligation means

It means we have all sufficiency IN Christ to live according to HIS will as we submit to Him and respond to what He calls us to do

You have taken that verse so far out of context, that it hurts to read the meaning you place upon it

Until people understand that EVERYTHING comes from God, and we do NOTHING for Him that is actually for Him, in our own strength, they will not know the rest in Christ we are promised

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And thus 'eternally-gratefull'

We have to remain this way or Satan will come after us, I get legalistic alot myself. I want praise from people when I do things, especially when I have a great teaching at church I spent so much time on, if I do not get it, I can get hurt. And thats never good..

What I have learned over the years, is I need to be told a teaching is good, when I know deep inside it is horrible and did not go as I wanted it to. Not when I think I did good. because it was never me to begin with, it was God. When i relied on self. thats when It went bad..

 

[KohenMatt]

by the way, you did not answer the question, I will pose it again.

What could we possibly do to earn gods praise when we so righteously earn Gods condemnation. And not one iota more than that, ANYTHING we receive from God is of grace, whether it be salvation or a house, a spouse, a job, a car, whatever it may be, Nothing can ever be earned (even our rewards scripture says we will return to the feet of Christ, because we are not worthy)

There is nothing we can do for anything, except believe and repent.

 

[KohenMatt]

No, That has nothing to do with it, If there is a guy on the road, God tells us to help.

The question is, what was your fraim of mind, God, give me the strength and tools to serve this guy as you desire, for I can not do it on my own, and do not want to mess it up..and I do not expect on thing in return.

Or, I will help this guy, and get many rewards for it (both temporal and eternal)

What is your motivation.

Exactly.

Now replace the doing good to the guy on the side of the road example, taking care of someone else's possessions, lending money, paying workers, helping people work, loving strangers, feeding the poor, helping people's animals, making your property safe with others, with the Sabbath, Feast days, kosher, etc.

All of these things, all of the Law can (and should) be done with the right frame of mind and motivation, knowing that it is the Holy Spirit that is leading us, knowing that doing them doesn't earn us anything except being obedient to our God. Do some people abuse it? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it's not good to do them at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is nothing we can do for anything, except believe and repent.

and we can only do that once, Sadly it takes many a whole lifetime to get to that point. even people who been in church their whole lives.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly.

Now replace the doing good to the guy on the side of the road example, taking care of someone else's possessions, lending money, paying workers, helping people work, loving strangers, feeding the poor, helping people's animals, making your property safe with others, with the Sabbath, Feast days, kosher, etc.

All of these things, all of the Law can (and should) be done with the right frame of mind and motivation, knowing that it is the Holy Spirit that is leading us, knowing that doing them doesn't earn us anything except being obedient to our God. Do some people abuse it? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it's not good to do them at all.

Ya had me until you got to sabbath feast day and kosher.

All those things were serving others, the last three were serving self. (although we need a day of rest, based on our make-up so I will grant you that one, plus it was commanded outside and before the law so is still in effect)

Why would the HS want you to do those things, when they have already been fulfilled. Jesus instituted them so when the messiah came the people doing them could be ready, Are you still waiting on your savior to come? Or has he not already come and fulfilled those things?

 

[KohenMatt]

Ya had me until you got to sabbath feast day and kosher.

I thought that one might trip you up, haha.

All those things were serving others, the last three were serving self. (although we need a day of rest, based on our make-up so I will grant you that one, plus it was commanded outside and before the law so is still in effect)

Each of these things has nothing to do with serving self. They are serving and celebrating God's work. (I love celebrating each of these holidays, but the focus is always on God's work.)

Why would the HS want you to do those things, when they have already been fulfilled. Jesus instituted them so when the messiah came the people doing them could be ready, Are you still waiting on your savior to come? Or has he not already come and fulfilled those things?

You do them to celebrate what God has done. I don't do the Day of Atonement in order to be atoned for. I celebrate the Day of Atonement in thanks of the atonement already given to me by Messiah. While I disagree with the days, why do people do easter or christmas? Hasn't Jesus already risen from the dead? Hasn't he already born? Hasn't He fulfilled these things already? Then why do folks still celebrate it?

Remembrance and thanksgiving.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought that one might trip you up, haha.

Each of these things has nothing to do with serving self. They are serving and celebrating God's work. (I love celebrating each of these holidays, but the focus is always on God's work.)

Well it all sounds good. But there are better things I think we should be doing. It is one thing if we have a jewish heritage and background and do it for our families who need it, It is another thing if we just do it, again why?

You do them to celebrate what God has done. I don't do the Day of Atonement in order to be atoned for. I celebrate the Day of Atonement in thanks of the atonement already given to me by Messiah. While I disagree with the days, why do people do easter or christmas? Hasn't Jesus already risen from the dead? Hasn't he already born? Hasn't He fulfilled these things already? Then why do folks still celebrate it?

For our kids, and because many people come to Christ on these days so for them also?

Remembrance and thanksgiving.

still can't see it.. To much religion, not enough serving, God gave us a thing of remembrance, we do not do it often enough, Maybe we need to do it more, a the rest of our tradition less. and get on with the work of God. I am reminded of my sin and grace every day, I do not need a whole bunch of things to remind me more, If anything that would just give me a reason to boast of all the things I do.

 

[KohenMatt]

Well it all sounds good. But there are better things I think we should be doing. It is one thing if we have a jewish heritage and background and do it for our families who need it, It is another thing if we just do it, again why?

Better things than honoring God? To be sure, there are other ways of honoring God than just these particular laws and days, like serving others. But if all are done to honor God, they are the same. And why do we do it? Because God told His people to do them.

For our kids, and because many people come to Christ on these days so for them also?

Exact same reasoning as the days I'm talking about. People come to Christ on these days as well and my kids are blessed by them.

But the other question remains: Why do people celebrate easter and christmas when they've already been fulfilled? Why do people celebrate Passover and the Day of Atonement when they've already been fulfilled? The motivation for both is the same: Remembrance and celebration.

still can't see it.. To much religion, not enough serving, God gave us a thing of remembrance, we do not do it often enough, Maybe we need to do it more, a the rest of our tradition less. and get on with the work of God. I am reminded of my sin and grace every day, I do not need a whole bunch of things to remind me more, If anything that would just give me a reason to boast of all the things I do.

The issue is though, all of reasons you mention about the pitfalls of celebrating these Biblical feast days exist just as much with communion, easter and christmas. We can't discount God's feasts days just because people are doing them wrong. What was the reason God commanded those days? How did he command them to be celebrated?

I agree with you though, we do need to focus more on the remembrance than the tradition. But if you're wondering if we should remember more and do tradition less, how is one set-apart day to do so a bad thing? Obviously, we should remember every day, but having an additional set-apart day doesn't negate that, but only adds to it.

And I don't see how remembering my sin and the grace given to me on a daily basis gives me a reason to boast.