What is Moral?
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I see by your "Profile" that you are not a Christian. Given that, let me say that it is a favorite pass time of unbelievers to turn to the Scriptures in the Old Testament.............the First Covenant (Law) to try and dredge up disagreements and push belittlements on believers..........Old, old game played out all over the Internet, and even in Hollywood, and our Universities and Public Schools........See, y'all just never seem to get around to the New Covenant........the New Testament........the Gospel of Jesus Christ............when you do, check back in with me..........
LatentAuthor, your interest in morality and justice is a good thing.
Many human lives have been perpetrators of injustice. Many have been victims of injustice. Many have been both a perpetrator and a victim of injustice.
Only if there is a general resurrection of everyone who has ever lived and a future judgment and sentencing could that mess of past human injustices ever be made right. I've read the entire Bible more than once and I expect it to happen that there will be a general resurrection and things will be made right.
Full justice would be very severe. God will have a knowledge and understanding of points of fact and points of law and righteous standards that I don't have. I know that if full justice and retribution ever came against me, then I would want to cry for mercy. So I cried out to God for mercy early with whatever faith I had before the sight of that day would arrive.
Is mercy Just? Are pardons just? Is forgiveness just? Yes, but only because Jesus made it possible. Psalm 101:1 (paraphrase) - Of mercy and of justice, I will sing.
We humans can know all that we need to know about God but not all that we might want to know. The Bible and nature both give testimony to God's existence and attributes.
Near the end of the Bible in Revelation 15:3, there is this scene in heaven: And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Many human lives have been perpetrators of injustice. Many have been victims of injustice. Many have been both a perpetrator and a victim of injustice.
Only if there is a general resurrection of everyone who has ever lived and a future judgment and sentencing could that mess of past human injustices ever be made right. I've read the entire Bible more than once and I expect it to happen that there will be a general resurrection and things will be made right.
Full justice would be very severe. God will have a knowledge and understanding of points of fact and points of law and righteous standards that I don't have. I know that if full justice and retribution ever came against me, then I would want to cry for mercy. So I cried out to God for mercy early with whatever faith I had before the sight of that day would arrive.
Is mercy Just? Are pardons just? Is forgiveness just? Yes, but only because Jesus made it possible. Psalm 101:1 (paraphrase) - Of mercy and of justice, I will sing.
We humans can know all that we need to know about God but not all that we might want to know. The Bible and nature both give testimony to God's existence and attributes.
Near the end of the Bible in Revelation 15:3, there is this scene in heaven: And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Death reigned from Adam to Moses, without Law in place, and the people were not aware of from God what is right and what is wrong, and was put in place to show us our sinfulness from Moses to Christ. Without Law one is not guilty as in aware of being guilty, yet guilty. So when Law came and I sinned I died and needed forgiveness, shown to me by The Law.
The perfect law was and is in place for the law breaker, and no flesh can obey it in its entirety, perfectly, only Christ did and could, being born of the Virgin Mary as perfect, no one else is, so no one else can.
So Christ came to fulfill it, to bring us to a new Covenant of Love to all, received from Father by the resurrected Christ, yet death was needed first to cleanse the books of the records of wrongs, before a new covenant of Love could take place, where one's sins and lawless acts are behind Father's back never to see again, thanks be to Son.
By Faith in the finished work we are saved by and from God the Father through the Son, completed for you and me at the resurrected Christ, justified in the Spirit of God. Which today is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and Truth.
So by the death of Christ reckon you to be dead to carnal nature, and alive to God through the resurrected Christ in the Spirit right here and right now. God gives this to you if you believe God, a free gift to you, any working for a gift before or after the gift,, makes void the gift. For work and gift do not mix, can't. Just as new wine can't last in old wine skin. when the wine ferments it bursts open the bag and the new wine is lost
So beyond Morals, I choose Value, and Value Father through Son Christ, and thus Father does the work needed in and through me as I stay hidden in Father through Son
Praying this helps in your endeavor
The perfect law was and is in place for the law breaker, and no flesh can obey it in its entirety, perfectly, only Christ did and could, being born of the Virgin Mary as perfect, no one else is, so no one else can.
So Christ came to fulfill it, to bring us to a new Covenant of Love to all, received from Father by the resurrected Christ, yet death was needed first to cleanse the books of the records of wrongs, before a new covenant of Love could take place, where one's sins and lawless acts are behind Father's back never to see again, thanks be to Son.
By Faith in the finished work we are saved by and from God the Father through the Son, completed for you and me at the resurrected Christ, justified in the Spirit of God. Which today is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and Truth.
So by the death of Christ reckon you to be dead to carnal nature, and alive to God through the resurrected Christ in the Spirit right here and right now. God gives this to you if you believe God, a free gift to you, any working for a gift before or after the gift,, makes void the gift. For work and gift do not mix, can't. Just as new wine can't last in old wine skin. when the wine ferments it bursts open the bag and the new wine is lost
So beyond Morals, I choose Value, and Value Father through Son Christ, and thus Father does the work needed in and through me as I stay hidden in Father through Son
Praying this helps in your endeavor
Mark 10:3“What did Moses command you?” he replied.
Matthew 19:8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Exodus 32:30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed!They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. ( Moses had did everything out of Love.)
Matthew 16:19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Mark 1:44“See that you don’t tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”
Luke 24:44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Matthew 19:8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
Exodus 32:30 The next day Moses said to the people, “You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.”
31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed!They have made themselves gods of gold. 32 But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
33 The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. ( Moses had did everything out of Love.)
Matthew 16:19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Mark 1:44“See that you don’t tell this to anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the sacrifices that Moses commanded for your cleansing, as a testimony to them.”
Luke 24:44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
It's the Christmas season. Here is the record from the Gospel of Luke of what the angel told a virgin named Mary concerning the child to be conceived in her and birthed:
"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." - (Luke 1:35).
The birth of Jesus was unique as was his person and life.
The Bible is full of accounts of supernatural power beyond common human experience. The devil can produce "lying signs and wonders" but his powers are far short of God's.
"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also THAT HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." - (Luke 1:35).
The birth of Jesus was unique as was his person and life.
The Bible is full of accounts of supernatural power beyond common human experience. The devil can produce "lying signs and wonders" but his powers are far short of God's.
So you are saying that in your view when God commands genocide, slavery, rape, or for people to be executed for things we don't even consider crimes anymore - that this is "full justice"? If you saw these things taking place today, would you not immediately recognize them as immoral? Is your contention that this response is wrong?
( 1) Inerrancy? Here are my Spanish thoughts on that matter: Temas Teológicos: Inerrancia Bíblica o Inerrancia Humana.
( 2) Do you think they were God's decision?
Good! Are we better than God? We had Him to be the world police... I'm not that moral!
( 2) Do you think they were God's decision?
Good! Are we better than God? We had Him to be the world police... I'm not that moral!
R
If you believe that God was serious when He said "Thou shalt not murder", and does not break His own law, then consider the possibility that the gore stories are poetic illustrations of how to do the exact opposite. Used to focus on the intensity in which we are to perform, and to make the instructions excitingly memorable.
They also serve as a filter for the intent and morals of the reader.
No matter who you are and what others tell you, you will always see what you want to see.
So what is the "effect of every vision?"
Not saying some of those stories didn't actually happen, but history does not record literal stoning until a good while after the instructions were given, and archeological and secular historical evidence does not support any group of Israelites actually overthrowing various cities with physical warfare.
They fixed those cities from within with brotherly love, and used the literal violence of other peoples that they observed as examples toillustrate the intensity of God's way of love and peace.
You may not believe it. (probably not) but you can't have it both ways.
If baal is god, worship him, if YHWH is God, worship Him.
And let the true one answer with FIRE.
You probably know that the "field" is where you work on the harvest. And that the wilderness is a place of hardship and uncertainty. And haven't you heard that the "sword" is the word of God that comes from Jesus mouth?
"And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword."
Do you believe that when you are judged according to your works, all the books will be "opened" ?
Can you smell what the "rock" is "cooking" ?
They also serve as a filter for the intent and morals of the reader.
No matter who you are and what others tell you, you will always see what you want to see.
So what is the "effect of every vision?"
Not saying some of those stories didn't actually happen, but history does not record literal stoning until a good while after the instructions were given, and archeological and secular historical evidence does not support any group of Israelites actually overthrowing various cities with physical warfare.
They fixed those cities from within with brotherly love, and used the literal violence of other peoples that they observed as examples toillustrate the intensity of God's way of love and peace.
You may not believe it. (probably not) but you can't have it both ways.
If baal is god, worship him, if YHWH is God, worship Him.
And let the true one answer with FIRE.
You probably know that the "field" is where you work on the harvest. And that the wilderness is a place of hardship and uncertainty. And haven't you heard that the "sword" is the word of God that comes from Jesus mouth?
"And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword."
Do you believe that when you are judged according to your works, all the books will be "opened" ?
Can you smell what the "rock" is "cooking" ?
2
Moral is not in the Bible
The definition of Moral changes with time so that the enemy can make homosexuals moral and christians immoral...
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
It is better not to talk about morality but rather the will of God in the holy Bible.
The definition of Moral changes with time so that the enemy can make homosexuals moral and christians immoral...
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
It is better not to talk about morality but rather the will of God in the holy Bible.
2
When I was a boy there arose a false gospel of situation ethics, it really made sense!
If you are starving its ok to steal, etc etc depending on your situation.
This WAS a trap for the world
I wasnt good at the Bible and didnt catch the error
Deu 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.
Situation ethics
Judg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Situation ethics
and this is the sure result of situation ethics
Psa 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
Psa 36:3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
We need to be either right or wrong
gray zones are from the enemy.
God will make all things work out if you hold fast to the truth
Moral discussions can help nobody because the sinners arent going to change
if they were they would come to the right
the only thing that can happen is weak christians will be taken into a once saved always saved sinning church and perish.
The sure result of once saved always saved is
The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
They dont have to scour their lives their faults their flaws
they dont have to beg for sanctificatio and change their ways
they dont have to repent
and
they dont go to heaven for none that are not sanctifying themselves by prayer and pleading will make it.
the way is narrow and the majority will stone you for the truth.
If you are starving its ok to steal, etc etc depending on your situation.
This WAS a trap for the world
I wasnt good at the Bible and didnt catch the error
Deu 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.
Situation ethics
Judg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Situation ethics
and this is the sure result of situation ethics
Psa 36:2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
Psa 36:3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
We need to be either right or wrong
gray zones are from the enemy.
God will make all things work out if you hold fast to the truth
Moral discussions can help nobody because the sinners arent going to change
if they were they would come to the right
the only thing that can happen is weak christians will be taken into a once saved always saved sinning church and perish.
The sure result of once saved always saved is
The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
They dont have to scour their lives their faults their flaws
they dont have to beg for sanctificatio and change their ways
they dont have to repent
and
they dont go to heaven for none that are not sanctifying themselves by prayer and pleading will make it.
the way is narrow and the majority will stone you for the truth.
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Yet every one of these is proscribed by God in the Old Testament - hence my original question:
If God is absolutely moral, and scripture inerrant, then why are there so many direct commands from God in the OT - such as allowing slavery, death sentences for things we don't even consider crimes anymore, genocide, and rape - that we would immediately recognize as immoral today?
R
Depends totally on how you feel about how a righteous god should behave himself if he claims to be righteous, which means only and always doing what is right. And how you feel about your fellow man, whether you have hope for them all, some, or self alone.
And how he might conceal himself almost totally from people that embrace immoral intent, and reveal himself to different degrees to those who embrace moral intent.
And how he might conceal himself almost totally from people that embrace immoral intent, and reveal himself to different degrees to those who embrace moral intent.