What is Moral?

[LatentAuthor]

He is the potter. We are the clay. (Romans 9:21)

So it is our perception that is off that slavery, genocide, and killing gay people are bad things? That these things are good when God tells people to do them?

You don't need to share here but...What is your response to questions you've raised and responses that you've been given?

I find slavery, genocide, and proscriptions to kill gay people immoral, and I have yet to figure out an honest way to reconcile them with the idea of a moral God - hence the question.

 

[jimmydiggs]

So if God commands us to kill men, women, and children it is our moral duty to do so?

Yes. He has done that before.

 

[LatentAuthor]

Yes. He has done that before.

How did you determine that God was good to begin with?

 

[jimmydiggs]

How did you determine that God was good to begin with?

You mean to say, that I must use a scale to determine his goodness?

 

[oldhermit]

So. . .infants had to be killed because of their sin?

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
​

Just in case anyone was unclear, a "suckling" is a baby that is still nursing.

One point you seem to be missing in this is that the Judgment of God is also redemptive. While the nation is destroyed because of its sin, those children who bear no sin still belong to the Lord. This may be a difficult thing for some to grasp but, we need to learn to see death the way God sees death.

slavery,

I think you are confused about the issue of slavery under the Law of Moses.

I. The Ordinance of the Hebrew Slave, Exodus 21:1-6
Slavery was already an existing institution. God does not prohibit the practice of slavery in Israel but, he does give ordinances to regulate it. A Hebrew could be enslaved by the court for the commission of a crime such as theft or, because of poverty, he could sell himself and his family into slavery. This type of slavery was not permitted to be harsh or cruel. These were to be treated as hired servants, not as slaves taken in conquest, Leviticus 25: 39-43. The law of slavery was a good law. It protected the poor from destitution. It offered them an opportunity for survival and not having to become beggars. The limitation of the law protected them against extend and perhaps unwarranted servitude as well as cruel treatment.
A. The purchase obligation of a servant was limited to six years, 1-2.
1. At the end of the six years, he was to go out for free. He does not have to purchase his freedom.
2. This is not in connection with a Sabbatical year but is determined from the time he began his service. However, if the Year of Jubalee occurred during these six years, he could be released even sooner, Leviticus 25:40 but, this seems to be limited to the one who sells himself into servitude because of poverty, not to the one sentenced because of a crime.
3. He was not to be sent out empty, Deuteronomy 15:12-14. This was to ensure him a fresh start so that he might not have to end up once again enslaved.

B. Concerning the wife and children of the slave, 3-4
1. If he comes in by himself, he is to leave by himself.
2. If he came with a wife, he is to leave with his wife. Because she is his property.
3. If his master gave him a wife while in slaves, the wife was to remain with the master. He cannot take that which belongs to the master. She is still the master’s servant.
4. If she bears him children, the children also belong to the master.

C. Concerning the Servant who chooses not to leave, 5-6
1. The choice of leaving could be waved by the servant. He could deny his freedom and choose to remain a servant permanently.
2. He could choose to stay either for love of his master or for love of his family.
3. He was then to be taken before the magistrates. This had to be witnessed as a legally binding agreement between both parties.
4. He must then be literally nailed to the doorpost of the house through the ear. This signified that the servant has now become a permanent part of the master’s house. He was to serve him forever. Josephus and other Jewish commentators suggest that the law of the Jubalee over ruled this contract but, it seems very unlikely as this was a legally binding covenant agreement between the two parties as a "forever" pledge.

II. The Ordinance of Purchasing a Female Servant / Wife / Concubine, 7-11
She is not to be sent away at the end of the six years as the male servant. She occupies a different role in the household. She is married to the master.
A. If she displeases the master, he cannot simply send her away. He must allow her to be redeemed by another Israelite, perhaps even her own father. This latter is probably the least likely of the two possibilities for redemption because poverty would have more than likely been the reason she is sold in the first place, Leviticus 25:39. He does not have the right to sell her to a foreign people because she belongs to the Lord. Notice: it is the master who is being unfair in returning her. She is not regarded as an offender. Because she has no control over herself nor over her master.

B. If her master gives her to his son as a wife, he is then to treat her as a daughter.

C. If her husband should take another wife, she is not to be reduced of food, clothing, or conjugal rights. These are her rights as a wife. Violation of this would constitute a breach of contract and she would be free to go out without having to purchase her release.

genocide, killing gay people was only moral for certain people at certain times?

You do not seem to understand. It is always moral for God to punish sin. Israel was simply the instrument of the judgment of God and it was restricted to the boundaries of the land he promised to give them. God still punishes sin just as he always has. The fact that we are no longer under a divine law that demands us to take the lives of the sinner does not mean that they are not still under the judgment of God. He will deal with them in his own time and under his own terms and he will not answer to man for his judgments.

 

[LatentAuthor]

One point you seem to be missing in this is that the Judgment of God is also redemptive. While the nation is destroyed because of its sin, those children who bear no sin still belong to the Lord. This may be a difficult thing for some to grasp but, we need to learn to see death the way God sees death.

So killing children is okay because they'll go to heaven?

I think you are confused about the issue of slavery under the Law of Moses.

I think you're confused about the issue of slavery as you haven't addressed non-Hebrew slaves which could be enslaved forever.

 

[oldhermit]

So killing children is okay because they'll go to heaven?
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I think you're confused about the issue of slavery as you haven't addressed non-Hebrew slaves which could be enslaved forever.

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Yes. These were usually those taken in conquest but not always so. In the Bible, the issue of the right or wrong of slavery was never an issue. Only in the last couple of centuries have we made it an issue. Even in the NT, those who owned slaves, whether endentured servants or those purchased outside of the Hebrew family and especially those Gentile Christians who owned slaves who were never under the Law of Moses are now instructed in how to treat their slaves and the slaves are instructed how to serve their masters. NOWHERE were they ever commanded to free their slave whether endentured or otherwise. When our social ideologies conflict with scripture, it is never scripture that is in error, it is always our ideology.

 

[reject-tech]

Banned OP, should you return to the thread -

Judges 21:11-12 is about ridding one's self of aggression, mindless submission, keeping innocence about God's character, and living in peace amidst "door to door salesmen."

Not about literally killing men and women and stealing the tweens.

Hope you'll find it.

 

[alexis]

So killing children is okay because they'll go to heaven?
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I think you're confused about the issue of slavery as you haven't addressed non-Hebrew slaves which could be enslaved forever.

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You are making God human. It's not like that. We can not kill anyone because Christ said to love everyone.

If God calls a child home it's horrible for us left here but amazing for the child to be in heaven with Jesus is not bad in anyway. Those children that The Lord takes never suffer no more.

I know you don't believe and I'm not telling you to. It does seem you tend to take a piece of scripture without taking it all into account.

Why does our earthly father punish us? It is the same for God...
He loves us and wants the best for us. By taking a child home from a city of evil and sin is not punishment but love.
However that's done it's gone.

We now have Jesus when born again to Him we are dead to sin..

I so should let you be but I really wish you could see Christianity is purely love! Christ took care of it all just love Him and love everyone like He asks.

I have found so much happiness just from accepting God. I used to be sad and depressed. With Jesus in my heart everything is amazing... My stepmom refuses to allow me to go to church this morning... Instead of being sad or angry. I love her and get out my guitar and sing songs of praise to my little brothers. When she sends me tomy room for trying to "brain wash" them I come on here and find fellowship and love.

Jesus carries all worries and woes... Leaving everything a positive.
Maybe think of a life in happiness and love,
It is easy to obtain all you have to do is knock and He will answer.

 

[RuthHannah]

[QUOTE

You are making God human. It's not like that. We can not kill anyone because Christ said to love everyone.

If God calls a child home it's horrible for us left here but amazing for the child to be in heaven with Jesus is not bad in anyway. Those children that The Lord takes never suffer no more.

I know you don't believe and I'm not telling you to. It does seem you tend to take a piece of scripture without taking it all into account.

Why does our earthly father punish us? It is the same for God...
He loves us and wants the best for us. By taking a child home from a city of evil and sin is not punishment but love.
However that's done it's gone.

We now have Jesus when born again to Him we are dead to sin..

I so should let you be but I really wish you could see Christianity is purely love! Christ took care of it all just love Him and love everyone like He asks.

I have found so much happiness just from accepting God. I used to be sad and depressed. With Jesus in my heart everything is amazing... My stepmom refuses to allow me to go to church this morning... Instead of being sad or angry. I love her and get out my guitar and sing songs of praise to my little brothers. When she sends me tomy room for trying to "brain wash" them I come on here and find fellowship and love.

Jesus carries all worries and woes... Leaving everything a positive.
Maybe think of a life in happiness and love,
It is easy to obtain all you have to do is knock and He will answer.

Do you believe in capital punishment for today ? Is it biblical in the NT ?

 

[oldhermit]

To Lexi - I think you erred in your format. That quote did not come from me.

 

[alexis]

To Lexi - I think you erred in your format. That quote did not come from me.

I messed up in the last statement oldhermit would never say that

It was a quote from LatentAuthor I will try to fix it...

 

[Ugly]

I messed up in the last statement oldhermit would never say that

It was a quote from LatentAuthor I will try to fix it...

There is 5 min limit on editing. Mods won't change it for you.

 

[alexis]

You are making God human. It's not like that. We can not kill anyone because Christ said to love everyone.

If God calls a child home it's horrible for us left here but amazing for the child to be in heaven with Jesus is not bad in anyway. Those children that The Lord takes never suffer no more.

I know you don't believe and I'm not telling you to. It does seem you tend to take a piece of scripture without taking it all into account.

Why does our earthly father punish us? It is the same for God...
He loves us and wants the best for us. By taking a child home from a city of evil and sin is not punishment but love.
However that's done it's gone.

We now have Jesus when born again to Him we are dead to sin..

I so should let you be but I really wish you could see Christianity is purely love! Christ took care of it all just love Him and love everyone like He asks.

I have found so much happiness just from accepting God. I used to be sad and depressed. With Jesus in my heart everything is amazing... My stepmom refuses to allow me to go to church this morning... Instead of being sad or angry. I love her and get out my guitar and sing songs of praise to my little brothers. When she sends me tomy room for trying to "brain wash" them I come on here and find fellowship and love.

Jesus carries all worries and woes... Leaving everything a positive.
Maybe think of a life in happiness and love,
It is easy to obtain all you have to do is knock and He will answer.

This was in response to LatentAuthor not oldhermit as the quote says... I did something wrong and did not catch it soon enough to edit it...

Please don't think oldhermit thinks that way

Also if a mod sees this feel free to delete the post! Thanks and sorry I don't know what I did

 

[oldhermit]

Do you believe in capital punishment for today ? Is it biblical in the NT ?

If we are to avoid contradictions in our application of ethics, we must adopt an ethical standard that is consistent in all circumstances and equitable to all members of society. I contend that the word of God is the only standard by which this need can be satisfied. The application of ethical principles in scripture is never concerned with issues of ethnic, social, political, or economic considerations. Right and wrong are never determined by these factors. Without these prejudices, the application of judgments will always be just and equitable. In the question of capital punishment, how do we decide whether this practice is right or wrong? Some argue that this practice, even in response to a capital crime, is uncivilized, cruel, and barbaric. The deontological argument would contend that the death penalty is a justly retributive measure which addresses the guilt factor. The utilitarian would even argue that it is a deterrent measure and should be imposed. I think both are correct. One valid issue that deontology recognizes is that we do not apply the death penalty in our society equitably. Often, the death penalty seems to be disproportionately determined by one’s social, economic or racial status. I am sure that most would find this an unacceptable application of capital punishment. If capital punishment is an issue of fairness where a life is demanded for a life, why is it not applied fairly across the board? Still, how does one justify the taking of a life under any circumstance?

One popular argument says that taking a person’s life is a devaluation of the individual. If the life is taken, there no longer remains an opportunity for rehabilitation or redemption. This argument misses the point. Justice is not satisfied by the rehabilitation of the murderer but by taking of his life. Failure to exercise the death penalty in the case of a capital crime is not intended to recognize the dignity of the guilty. It is intended to exact retribution. Failure on man's part to uphold the death penalty is instead a failure to recognize the terrible nature of the crime. This brings up the question of who should determine the magnitude of the crime. Since God is the rightful giver and taker of life, perhaps we should allow revelation to influence the decision. The revealed standard demands that a life be taken for a life. “Of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed”, (Gen.9:5,6). This law was given to Noah before the nation of Israel was even born. This law was given as a divine mandate for man to punish the manslayer and was not given to a select group of people as was the Law of Moses. This is a divine mandate to reveal how man should represent the undue taking of a human life. We need to see the seriousness of murder from the eyes of the Creator, not through any human value system. Rationalization for not observing the mandate is a rejection of the revealed standard. Observance of this mandate is predicated upon the understanding that man is created in the image of God. Murder then becomes an affront to the image of God. As far as God is concerned, this cannot go unchallenged. The arguments of rehabilitation and possible redemption call into question the validity of the revelation. These considerations have no value before the mandate of God and do not even figure into it from the vantage point of revelation.

Can the Christian support the death penalty? I believe there are actually two questions here. One is a matter of support while the other is a matter of involvement. I believe that God has granted this judicial mandate of capital punishment to be exercised by world governments. This is a matter appointed to the world powers that God has installed. If a Christian is functioning in a capacity of social authority such as a judge perhaps, then he must carry out the functions of the office he holds. God has assigned this power to such offices and the fact that one is a Christian does not relieve one of this responsibility.

 

[BananaPie]

What most people do not understand is that the Law of Moses NEVER applied to anyone other that the Jews.

​Absolutely. ...and the Lord God called to Moses from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:

'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people, for all the Earth is Mine, and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.'" (Exodus 19:3-6)

Now that there is a New Covenant, not even the Jews are any longer bound by that Old Covenant.

Indeed. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes: for the Jew first, and also for the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

 

[Conotocarious]

If God is not the source of morality, then man is. If man is, we are doomed without hope of salvation.

 

[oldhermit]

I messed up in the last statement oldhermit would never say that

It was a quote from LatentAuthor I will try to fix it...

It is not a big deal. I've done it before myself.

 

[nl]

I find slavery, genocide, and proscriptions to kill gay people immoral, and I have yet to figure out an honest way to reconcile them with the idea of a moral God - hence the question.

In the NT, Ananias and Sapphira gave a large financial gift to the church but they pretended to be more generous than they really were. God struck them dead for it. (Acts 5:1-11).

God is the Sovereign Creator and master potter. Ananias and Sapphira were clay pots. They were married as male and female. It doesn't sound like they were gay sodomites but God judged them swiftly. There are others whom God will judge more slowly. Their judgement is deferred until their natural lives are over.

Prayers: Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner. Lord, have mercy upon LatentAuthor.

 

[jimmydiggs]

This thread is already on his blog.

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