JEWS

thefightinglamb · Jan 29, 2009

Jews confuse me...and I was wondering what thoughts people have on Jews...

Paul states that Jews are not jews by descent only but the true Jew is inwardly a Jew...but then he says also don't be decieved all Jews will be saved, God has not taken back his promise to their fathers, just as you were once trapped in disobedience and have been shown grace, so they shall be to...So is he still saying it is by natural descent or not?

I do not think there is any Christian who believes that Judas, a jew by descent, was saved; even then he was trapped by the disobedience of betrayal...

So, I am kind of wondering who are the Jews now that Jesus has come? And since Jesus Christ came for the Jews (the lost sheep of Israel) can they be saved without him? And if so, why did he come for them?

Truly, I think when Jesus said the Pharisees and Sadduccees were condemned--he meant it...but most Christians, even on this site I would assume, hold to a view that "Jews" whatever that means are still the chosen ones of God...

Also, Paul and Peter too I believe always made a point to first go to the Jewish synogogues to preach the message of Jesus, then when they rejected the message of Christ they went to the gentiles...why would they go to the Jews first, if they were already appointed?

Lastly, I think any Christian who went to a Jewish synogogue, stood up, and insisted on Jesus Christ crucified would be hated by many if not all in the congregation...what relationship is Christianity to have with the Jews who refuse to accept the Messiah? And is the fellowship between Jews and Christians just a myth? That is, if Jews are actually forced to recognize the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, will they turn on Christians???

Lastly, I sometimes attend a Messianic Jewish service on Friday nights...and they use as their motto a verse from Paul saying (paraphrased) that Jesus came first for the Jew. Thats all they use..they do not add the end of the verse "and also for the gentile." Personally, I was offended by it and do not know if I will ever go back...as they are editing scripture...

So there...Jews confuse me, no matter how complicated a view or a difference between covenants one devises between Christians and Jews...even Paul and Peter stopped living like Jews after conversion--remember how Paul corrected Cephas saying "since you live like a gentile and not like a Jew, would you force these obligations on them? When he separated himself from the gentiles when his Jewish friends came to a the gathering...

May the Lord give someone enough insight to help straighten out this confusion in my life...

tony

Baptistrw · Jan 29, 2009

The Jews are God's chosen people who rejected God and rejected their Messiah and have been punished several times over the last several thousand years. I wouldn't say all Jews will be saved, but apparently after the rapture happens there will be a mass revival of Jews coming to faith in Christ, and there will be 144,000 Jewish evangelists preaching the gospel during the tribulation. The Jews were appointed to hear the gospel first, but they rejected it. Jews need to be evangelized like any other people. But God chose them to be the race of the Messiah and He still has alot of plans for them in the endtimes.

Stratocaster · Jan 29, 2009

thefightinglamb said:

As a Jew by blood and upbringing, I'll try my best to answer your questions.

In the Old Testament times it was still faith by which you were saved, not by your own blood or the blood of any animal. Through faith in Jesus you are part of the Jewish family, since He says anyone who follows His commands is His brother. You are a branch grafted into His tree.

Don't be so hasty to disregard Judas as being among the saved. Only God can judge a person. Although he was Jesus' betrayer, at the "last supper" Jesus allowed Satan to enter him. In one way or another we have all betrayed Jesus and sent Him to the cross; we did it in our hearts, Judas did it physically, yet God judges our hearts and not the physical. The scripture also says he regretted it afterward. Also, in Revelation it says that on the gates of heaven will be written the names of the 12 apostles. That could be Mathias, but it could also be Judas.

Pondering over who is a Jew and who is not is beside the point; Romans talks about there being no difference between Jew and Gentile (in fact it says those very words "there is no difference between Jew and Gentile"). By modern standards, a Jew is a decedent of Israel (Jacob). Jesus makes it quite clear when He says "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". Even Jews need Jesus (Yeshua) to be saved. Scripture makes it clear that no one has been saved through the Law; it has always been by faith. The Law is an outward representation of that faith. Jesus came for many reasons, but as it applied to your question, it's to be that outward representation of faith to us; being the only person to ever fulfill the Law in its whole. Since He fulfilled the Law, faith in Him will save us.

Paul and Peter went to the Jews first because they were following Christ's example. In acts, right before Jesus ascends, says "you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of theearth.". In saying that, Jesus lays a foundation of where He wants you to witness. To Paul and Peter, Jews, Jerusalem is their home. Jesus wanted them to witness where they are most comfortable, among the Jews. He also wanted them to witness in Judea, a broader area of where they call home, Samaria, which was close to home but uncomfortable, and the ends of the Earth, where they had never been before.

Having grown up in a traditional Jewish synagogue, I can tell you that if you preached the name of Jesus you would probably be thrown out, possibly even spit on. Rabbis are still very fearful of the idea of Jesus being the Christ. To them it means giving up their traditions and what they have known for their entire lives. They still need the gospel preached to them though. The messianic synagogue is a good medium for them, since they still hold the values and important traditions of Jewish people, but with Yeshua Hamashiach (Jesus the Messiah) at the center of it all. Like all denominations, they don't have perfect theology, but are still accepted, loved, and used by God.

I hope this all helps, ask anything else if you'd like me to clarify =)

thefightinglamb · Jan 29, 2009

The reason I (as I think all Christians) must doubt Judas Iscariot's salvation is because of the words of the LORD, "It were better had he not been born." If he were saved, I do not believe this statement could be true in any sense, as salvation would have emptied whatever else opposed it.

Perhaps, I stated my confusions awkwardly...

Okay, so, does the favor of the Lord still rest on the Jews, even though they oppose Jesus? The answer I would think would be no as, what can you count as a blessing if you renounce the Son, even as Paul said he counted all things as loss (including his Jewish heritage) but to gain Christ...

But the main issue I am trying to discern is about things like "Israel" as a resurrected nation...I recently had a younger Christian tell me with potency those who bless the Lord's people will be blessed and thats why America must or should insist on supporting Israel (the state's) side in war and was surprised that I did not know this; and I felt ignorant and didn't know what to say. I do not concern myself much with end times because I think the Lord will come in his own time, and we know neither the day nor the hour (Jesus in some mysterious way seems to say that He doen't even know but only his father in heaven in one verse I believe)...

I would probably join the military but for Jesus's words those who live by the sword die by the sword, modern translation: 'those who live by the gun shall die by the gun'. And I see Israel as a nation using weapons to try to control Gaza, which I see as legitimate as a nation but not following the Lord's commands...

I kind of think what the Jews have in Israel now is what they wanted from Jesus, and not himself, so I am kind of quixotic about whatever spiritual powers are at work overthere--note I do not support the muslims in Gaza but if Israel kills citizens are they any more just? What if they kill many more? It is the same with the US; so many of our citizens were killed in the two towers, but does it justify how many civilians we have killed in Iraq or Afganistan? IN both cases I know it is complicated and I do not know what is the solution to hidden terroists using civilians as armor...

I do not even know if Christian principles could truly govern a nation in this world right now. What would have happened if instead of using military advancements to avenge ourselves of 9/11, the whole nation got on its knees and prayed for all those hell bent muslims that seek to tear us apart? What if we did the unthinkable and forgave them? Instead of avenging ourselves sevenfold??? Would not God have inclined to that rightous prayer and done something great over there? What if the unthinkable happened and Bin Laden became a second Paul? Saul thought his mission to destroy Christians was no more or less righteous than Bin Laden's twisted ideas of religious righteousness through Jihad...

My thoughts are even more confused on Israel? For Gaza bombing Israel is unacceptable as Obama likes to say...but I really don't know what or if Israel as a nation is or will ever be truly Jewish (I don't even know what this is still--hence if it still implies the Lord's favoritism in natural descent to some of Abraham's seed--and thus on this nation of Israel that has formed)...and if so if it is those who are in the nation who will turn to the Lord in the final days as Baptist says...

Is is really just "the physical descent" that still makes a Jew? Are their rituals anything more than vain practices anymore?
Paul is strange to me as well on his Jewish rituals...He says they are vain, but then just before he gets arrested when Jewish authorities came to him and said he was disregarding the law of Moses, he goes through a ritual of cutting hair and other things to proof he is still a Jew and then seems to suggest Jews 'should continue in this practice'?
Side note: Why in the meeting among Christians that decided that circumcision was not needed, did one of the few things they insist on the gentiles to refrain from food polluted by idols...and the meat of strangled animals and of blood (Acts 15:20)??? Seems like Jewish customs, yet they make the narrow list of requirements by the council, though physical circumcision did not?
Is blood, all blood, some type of spiritual and physical element still?

A lot of this may be wrong but thats where I am at right now.
May the Lord be with you.

as I am baffled,
tony

lil-rush · Jan 29, 2009

The way I was taught(and I am no expert on this topic) was that one can be either Jewish by decent, but not Jewish in religion; or one can be both Jewish by decent and by practice in religion; but no one can become Jewish racially if they are not born Jewish. However one can adopt Jewish beliefs and practice Judaism.

I do not think Christians are "spiritual Jews" or anything of the sort. Also, through out the OT the Hebrews repeatedly abandoned God, but were still His chosen people. He made a covenant with the Jewish people and God is not a god that breaks covenants. They are still His chosen people even if they do not accept His son, or even if they do not practice the Jewish customs. Does this mean they will all end up in heaven? No. Unless they are Messianic they will not be going to heaven. The NT says there is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ.

And, off topic, but Strato do you not feel the need to spell God and Lord as G-d and L-rd?

Slepsog4 · Jan 29, 2009

As an ethnic group any Jew who comes to obedient faith in Jesus can be saved. But nationally God judged them in AD 70 when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem just as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24.

pagie · Jan 30, 2009

I am a christian I dont consider myself to be a Jew, I dont think it is important if I am a jew or not. I think it is important that Jesus is a jew, because the promise was to be to Abrahams seed-Jesus, if I recieved Jesus who was jewish I recieve all that is of him and that which was rightfully his is mine since it is he who lives in me, but as a man im not jewish and as a christian I am a citisen of heaven just like Jesus is I also dont believe that Jews who reject christ are chosen people for the same reason that the Jew who rejects atonement and passover cant recieve forgiveness through the blood, how much more since Jesus blood was the blood to cancel sin once for all and is that which atonement and passover points to, the real genuan artical. JESUS CHRIST

pagie · Jan 30, 2009

Everything that was a prommise in the bible referst the the mesiah and the festival-feasts spescial days sabath, birthright of the first born, circumcision, all refers to christ I dont believe anything counts weather it be jew, gentile, me, or doctrine, Law, denomination, creed, race, skin color. a passover is still a passover though its actual avent has been revieled in christ, a day of atonement is still a day of atonement though its actual event is revieled in christ, a sabath is still a sabath but the actual event is revieled in christ and likewise a Jew is still a Jew but its actuality and that which is promissed and all that a Jew is, is fullfiled in christ

Margarita · Jan 30, 2009

FYI

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=XplSownBqw8&feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuWOi56Wq0&feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9_yApGEpmKk&feature=related

MahogonySnail · Jan 30, 2009

the majority of people blood-related to the biblical Jews would be Muslim today, not Jewish. There's some in Afghanistan and many other places. No Jewish person today living in Israel can really claim to be blood-related ancestrally from the original Jews. The Hebrews of the bible had African blood but today Jews are more from eastern origin than african hence their pale sort of skin. Jesus and other Jews of their time were probably darker brown due to the african influence.

MahogonySnail · Jan 30, 2009

p.s. "no Jewish person " should be "few" Jewish persons .

NazariteNation · Jan 30, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

I think Mahogany is right for the part. If you look at most folks that profess to be Jewish today, there are Russian Jews, African, Jews, Asian, Jews, etc. all of which show various physical characteristics credited from the lands in which they come from so it's pretty safe to say that most Jewish bloodlines are now heavily mixed with that of Gentiles.

That's not to say there aren't any true Jews by blood out there however, if there are, they are in the vast minority. Regardless, I believe that the bible anticipates this. In most prophetic scripture referring to "the last days", scripture tends to refer to the nation of Israel rather than Jews themselves ("my people").

However, one shouldn't be deceived by replacement theology. There are promises in the bible to the nation of Israel that have yet to be fulfilled regardless of how pure the bloodline is of those who live there. The church has, by no means whatsoever, replaced Israel, in essence, we have merely been "grafted in".

MahogonySnail · Jan 30, 2009

Yet Gentiles have been "grafted in" and joined Israel in the one tree of "faith in Christ". ,the Jews have been broken off because of unbelief and they need to be grafted in again by faith in Christ. And once a Jew has faith in Christ I suppose that makes them Christian. Or perhaps we christians have become the Jews.

Slepsog4 · Jan 30, 2009

LOL. You are joking aren't you.

Have you ever studied the biblical lineage of Jesus... the Semitic line? The table of nations also does not support an African influence.

lil-rush · Jan 30, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Christians are in no way, shape, or form Jews. We are Christians. We do not replace the Jews. We simply believe Jesus is the Messiah. This does not make us a special chosen people. God never said specifically to us that we are His Chosen People. It would be saying that God does not keep covenants if someone says we Christians are now the Chosen People. God made a specific covenant with Abraham that he would be the father of a Chosen People. The Chosen People are the Jews. God made a specific covenant and God is not a God that goes back on His word just because Israel goes back on theirs.

Yes, I do believe that Jews will not go to heaven unless they accept Christ as their Messiah, but heaven has nothing to do with Jews being God's Chosen People.

MahogonySnail · Jan 30, 2009

Actually at the bottom of this table of nations there is an interesting section about why and how an African influence came about:
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGham.htm

B L A C K B L O O D I N I S R A E L?

* Genesis 12:16

MahogonySnail · Jan 30, 2009

ok dont worry about it, the link is there its at the bottom of the page.

So since Jesus was descended from Abraham and the Jews , I believe he would have had African influence.

Also, depictions of Jews dating from the 3rd centuary show them as dark-skinned or olive colored.
I believe the correct term is "afro-asiatic". They would have appeared more chocolate brown than caucasian. And Jesus would have looked like any of his disciples.

Slepsog4 · Jan 30, 2009

There is nothing in Gen. 12:16 that indicates negro bloodline among the Israelites. Even the linked article only shows the division of the sons of Noah. It does not indicate that those in Egypt, etc. are part of the subsequent blood line. There is a direct bloodline from Adam, to Seth, to Noah, to Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob, to Judah, to David, to Jesus.

thefightinglamb · Jan 30, 2009

lil-Rush--you do not think possibly that when God said that Abraham would be the father of many nations--though in the Old Testament it referred to the Israelites, that in the New Testament just as Paul writes he is the father of us to who believe and put our faith in Jesus.

Abraham even in Jewish culture I believe is the father of the tribes and covenant by faith...He is the greatest witness of faith we have prior to Jesus, probably...and it is by this as I think Pauls suggests that we fall into the same family if we have the same faith...I do not believe we become Jews...but I also don't think the covenant is broken by God if it is still to people of faith...are you telling me that it is just some of that physical 'seed' or offspring that are Jews and favored still? How can you be favored and reject the Christ? If you do believe this you like them are apt to fall into idolatry of sperm and ovals...and forget it is by faith and not by birth that one was? a Jew and it is only by faith that one is a Christian.

Thats what I see but they confuse me as I have said--so I may be wrong...

God bless
tony

MahogonySnail · Jan 30, 2009

The point is, they would not be without the influences of the black blood line. Particularly considering that they all intermarried with the cultures around them. They were enslaved in Egypt for 400 years afterall, they did not intermarry and mix with the Egyptians and only bred within themselves? And a mixed multitude left Egypt as it says in Exodus.

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