JEWS

[onwingsaseagles]

Christians are in no way, shape, or form Jews. We are Christians. We do not replace the Jews. We simply believe Jesus is the Messiah. This does not make us a special chosen people. God never said specifically to us that we are His Chosen People. It would be saying that God does not keep covenants if someone says we Christians are now the Chosen People. God made a specific covenant with Abraham that he would be the father of a Chosen People. The Chosen People are the Jews. God made a specific covenant and God is not a God that goes back on His word just because Israel goes back on theirs.

Yes, I do believe that Jews will not go to heaven unless they accept Christ as their Messiah, but heaven has nothing to do with Jews being God's Chosen People.

If you do not believe that believing Gwentile have become grafted into Israel if you do not believe we have become citizens of Israel with the saints then how do you explain either of these two passages?

Romans 11:17-24
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

[MahogonySnail]

I've wondered this.. if lil-rush is right that Jews are God's Chosen people ,
then isn't it better for us to convert to Judasim first before converting to Christ? Afterally it is simply a religion, and blood-line ancestry is a moot point.
So let's convert to Judaism first, then we become God's Chosen people and then we believe in Christ.

 

[lil-rush]

Here you go: http://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

I don't agree with everything said on that page, but it gives a good argument for why replacement theology is wrong. The Covenant was made with Abraham and his direct descendants. It wasn't a "spiritual descendants" thing. It was all blood-line.

The funny thing is, people say that just because many Jews do not accept Christ as their savior this somehow means they no longer deserve the covenant. I ask what does merit have to do with God? Honestly, if anything was based on merit with God we'd all be going to h*ll. And then there is the fact that Israel turned its back on God numerous times in the OT, yet you never see a Christian commenting on that and saying Israel should have lost the covenant in the OT because of their wayward ways. People, make up your minds! Either they lose the covenant for being wayward, or they don't. You can't have both.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Here you go: http://therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

I don't agree with everything said on that page, but it gives a good argument for why replacement theology is wrong. The Covenant was made with Abraham and his direct descendants. It wasn't a "spiritual descendants" thing. It was all blood-line.

The funny thing is, people say that just because many Jews do not accept Christ as their savior this somehow means they no longer deserve the covenant. I ask what does merit have to do with God? Honestly, if anything was based on merit with God we'd all be going to h*ll. And then there is the fact that Israel turned its back on God numerous times in the OT, yet you never see a Christian commenting on that and saying Israel should have lost the covenant in the OT because of their wayward ways. People, make up your minds! Either they lose the covenant for being wayward, or they don't. You can't have both.

You do not have to ignore scripture to disprove ''replacement theology'' I do not believe the church has replaced Israel as God's people. I believe what the Bible says, believing Gentiles have become members of Israel and are included with believing Jews as the Israel of God.


You did not respond to the passages of scripture that show us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into Israel and have also become citizens of Israel with the Israeli saints.

Romans 11:17-24
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

 

[MahogonySnail]

So lil-rush when you say "Jew", are you referring to the religion, or the blood-line ancestry? It seems like the latter to me.
Because there are many people in the Jewish religion who do not have blood-line ancestry to Abraham.
And there are many people with blood-line descent from Abraham who are now Muslims (are Muslims God's chosen people too? )


But the apostle Paul taught things that are directly opposite to your claim that it is about blood-line ancestry. Romans 9:6-9 makes clear that those merely with blood-line ancestry are not the children of God. The promises of Abraham are made to those who have faith in Christ, Jew or gentile.
Paul taught if a person is Christ's they are of Abraham's seed, whether Jew or not.
Gal 3:28 There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is no male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

 

[thefightinglamb]

The household of God doesn't necessarily just mean Israel...It doesn't seem to...the tree they are broken off of and we grafted into isn't the Jews but Christ himself...and lastly, as Christians both jews and gentiles come together into one people and our fellow citizens...

 

[onwingsaseagles]

The household of God doesn't necessarily just mean Israel...It doesn't seem to...the tree they are broken off of and we grafted into isn't the Jews but Christ himself...and lastly, as Christians both jews and gentiles come together into one people and our fellow citizens...

Right of Israel, read verse 12 and see what it tells us we were forieners and strangers of (The Commonwealth of Israel) and verse 19 tell of we are not longer forieners , and strangers, but citizens with the saints. So what are we now citizens of? verse 12 told us (The Commonwealth of Israel)

 

[thefightinglamb]

Interesting would wonder if you would draw a difference between believing Jews and Christians? I do believe the 'commonwealth of Israel' or the heavenly Jerusalem is the same thing as Christians just, don't you?

I know at the messinic Jew church I went to they called Christians 'their friends' but seemed to differentiate between messenic jews and Christians...which offended me personally...

I think the covenant is faithful even as the prophets say that (just like the gentiles) only a remnant of Israel (yes bloodline I believe, but seem from God's perspective its probably I type of people)shall be saved (though as I said before Pauls comment not to doubt but that all jews were to be saved, that they are now locked in disobedience just as we once were, and God will take pity on them (some of them?))...

You would conclude that we become true Israelites when we believe in Christ?

Just asking...and yes they still confuse me.
No one has talked of 'the nation that has become Israel.' And addressed what that means--because there is where much of my confusion lies in Christians that see that physical land and nation as still receiving favor from God?

Were the descendants favored when the city was ramsacked (judged by God) in about 70 ad?
Do some of you think the holocaust (which wasn't more gruesome this God's past judgment on Israel) to be because they failed to accept his Son? And if so what punishment could a whole nation receive?

 

[lil-rush]

Onwings, both of the scriptures you posted are addressed in the link I provided.

Mahogony, I am referring mostly to Hebrews of the line of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Romans 9:6-9 supports me on this, because Paul is saying also that it is only the children of the promised child (Isaac) who are blessed. As for Galatians 3:29, the seed of Abraham could very well be referring to the fact that Christ is a direct descendant of Abraham so now we are technically "spiritual" seed of Abraham in that we are spiritual seed of Christ. God adopts us into His family when we accept His son as our own.

For the record just to keep things straight, y'all do realize I am talking about Genesis 12:1-3 and 15:18-21 when I am speaking of the Chosen People and The Covenant, right?

Thefightinglamb, is "the nation that has become Israel" a Biblical term? If so, reference please, so I can look it up and see what you are talking about.

 

[thefightinglamb]

I am referring to the jews that make up the state of Israel near Palestine...in the middle east.

I am wondering the connection between this and the Jews of the Bible; and what relation Christians are to have with that state? If they are obligated to it or not? As I said before a young Christian, (about physically 14 years old) seemed suprised when I did not know that we were...

 

[lil-rush]

Personally, I think it is wonderful to help Israelites in whatever way we can because 1) they are God's chosen people and we should respect that, 2) they are a valuable part of the Bible and fulfilling of prophecy so we should help keep scripture, and 3) they are our history and we should respect where we came from.

There are other reasons, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment. I'm sure if I went and asked dad he could give me a few good reasons.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Onwings, both of the scriptures you posted are addressed in the link I provided

"On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included.

The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as "grafted in" (Rom. 11:17); "brought near" (Eph 2:13); "Abraham's offspring" (by faith) (Rom. 4:16); "heirs" to Abraham's promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and "partakers" (Rom 15:27).


These statement made in the link you gave do not oppose what I have said tit confirms what i have been saying. Why do you accept what this site says and reject what I have said it is very similar.


The fact remains and you cannot refute it without denying scripture that the verses I gave prove that we have #1 been grafted in and #2 become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel with the saints. Once again the site you gave does not oppose this teaching it says the same as I am saying.

P.S. I do not believe we have replaced or usurped Israel but have been grafted into and or included with them in the promises. This is exactly what the site you gave was saying. (They were chosen we are partakers ''Adopted'' because of our faith)

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Interesting would wonder if you would draw a difference between believing Jews and Christians? I do believe the 'commonwealth of Israel' or the heavenly Jerusalem is the same thing as Christians just, don't you?

I know at the messinic Jew church I went to they called Christians 'their friends' but seemed to differentiate between messenic jews and Christians...which offended me personally...

I think the covenant is faithful even as the prophets say that (just like the gentiles) only a remnant of Israel (yes bloodline I believe, but seem from God's perspective its probably I type of people)shall be saved (though as I said before Pauls comment not to doubt but that all jews were to be saved, that they are now locked in disobedience just as we once were, and God will take pity on them (some of them?))...

You would conclude that we become true Israelites when we believe in Christ?

Just asking...and yes they still confuse me.
No one has talked of 'the nation that has become Israel.' And addressed what that means--because there is where much of my confusion lies in Christians that see that physical land and nation as still receiving favor from God?

Were the descendants favored when the city was ramsacked (judged by God) in about 70 ad?
Do some of you think the holocaust (which wasn't more gruesome this God's past judgment on Israel) to be because they failed to accept his Son? And if so what punishment could a whole nation receive?

Thefightinglamb, the short answer is no i see no difference between us and Messianic Jews in god's eyes. The difference is they still practice Judaism while also worshiping Christ. To you other question ''have we become Israel upon believing in Christ?'' The biblical answer is YES

 

[lil-rush]

"On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell will not overcome it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is built on the testimony and understanding of Peter, who is Jewish. Ephesians 2:11-14 indicates that Israel and the Jews (we) were chosen, but Gentiles (you) were also included.

The Church is related to Israel and partakers of the covenants, promises, and hopes, but we have not been called to usurp them. Our relationship is as "grafted in" (Rom. 11:17); "brought near" (Eph 2:13); "Abraham's offspring" (by faith) (Rom. 4:16); "heirs" to Abraham's promise as adopted sons (Gal. 3:29) and "partakers" (Rom 15:27).


These statement made in the link you gave do not oppose what I have said tit confirms what i have been saying. Why do you accept what this site says and reject what I have said it is very similar.


The fact remains and you cannot refute it without denying scripture that the verses I gave prove that we have #1 been grafted in and #2 become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel with the saints. Once again the site you gave does not oppose this teaching it says the same as I am saying.

P.S. I do not believe we have replaced or usurped Israel but have been grafted into and or included with them in the promises. This is exactly what the site you gave was saying. (They were chosen we are partakers ''Adopted'' because of our faith)

Sorry, I was of the belief that I was explaining why I don't believe in the Replacement Theology, and I also stated I don't agree with everything written on that webpage. I just used it as concise example of flaws in the Replacement Theology.

As for Christians inheriting the promise of Abraham, I don't think I have specifically agreed or disagreed with that idea as of yet on this thread. I'll admit my posts are leaning toward rejecting such an idea, and that is because I am leaning toward believing that we do not become God's chosen people or inherit the convenant when we become Christians. However, as of right now I have not done enough research on the matter to say what I believe either way.

Back to Romans 11: 17-23, that grafting could be taken to mean grafting into the family of God. It does not necessarily have to be grafting into the Hebrew nation.

 

[lil-rush]

Thefightinglamb, the short answer is no i see no difference between us and Messianic Jews in god's eyes. The difference is they still practice Judaism while also worshiping Christ. To you other question ''have we become Israel upon believing in Christ?'' The biblical answer is YES

Also, some Messianic Jews do not accept Paul as scripture, or believe in the Trinity.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Also, some Messianic Jews do not accept Paul as scripture, or believe in the Trinity.

Does that make them not Christians? and if so which part not accepting Paul's writing or not believing in the Trinity or both?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Back to Romans 11: 17-23, that grafting could be taken to mean grafting into the family of God. It does not necessarily have to be grafting into the Hebrew nation.

And Ephesians 2:11-9, doe sit or does it not specifically say that we as Gentile have become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel through our faith in Christ?

 

[lil-rush]

Does that make them not Christians? and if so which part not accepting Paul's writing or not believing in the Trinity or both?

Messianics generally don't consider themselves Christians to begin with. They are simply Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah. I'm sorry could you reword your second question? I'm having troubles understanding it. X_X

And Ephesians 2:11-9, does it or does it not specifically say that we as Gentile have become citizens of the commonwealth of Israel through our faith in Christ?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "citizens of the commonwealth of Israel" but it appears to me that the scripture is saying Gentiles are now part of the family of God through the blood of Jesus.

I'd just like to add I am enjoying this conversation. It's making me research quite a bit, and I do enjoy learning new things about the Bible through research.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "citizens of the commonwealth of Israel" but it appears to me that the scripture is saying Gentiles are now part of the family of God through the blood of Jesus.

I'd just like to add I am enjoying this conversation. It's making me research quite a bit, and I do enjoy learning new things about the Bible through research.

I am enjoying the convo as well

I am just going to post verse 12 and 19 so you can see what I am trying to say, however I encourage you to read verse 12-19 in context as well.

Eph 2:12 & 19
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

We were strangers and aliens of the commonwealth of Israel, but now we are no longer strangers but fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel AND of the house hold of God.

 

[thefightinglamb]

Responding a little to the long link lil-Rush posted.

(1) I do not think there are CHRISTIANS who hate, there might be people who believe themselves Christians who hate.
(2) I think Jesus (as I said before) forces people to either repent or to hate him...I do not really believe there is a middle ground...and I do not really accept a belief that jews can just remain aloof from accepting Christ and still be favored...
I think the Jews who will be saved may be a 'remnant' that become Christians--if you want to call this replacement theology I don't know...I read all of the link and, yes, while it seems a good idea not to hate jews (or anyone) I do not know how to relate to them...

I have gone to a Messeinic Jewish service and it was pretty awesome...but I believe Christians take on the name of Christ--and this fulfills soooo many prophecies...and am quizotic about what it means to people who are reluctant to do so--and would choose to say they are Messeinic and not Christian.

So was Paul a jew or a Christian? Do jews just become true jews when they believe in Christ or Christians?

I really do not think it is all the offspring of Abraham that are saved, but those who continue in faith...and is there any possibility of continuing in true jewish faith and not believing in Christ?

And lastly, what is the 'disobedience' that some of Israel is locked in that will be forgiven and changed in time by the Lord...

God bless
tony