JEWS

[MahogonySnail]

Personally, I think it is wonderful to help Israelites in whatever way we can because 1) they are God's chosen people and we should respect that, 2) they are a valuable part of the Bible and fulfilling of prophecy so we should help keep scripture, and 3) they are our history and we should respect where we came from.

Isn't it according to your views that those who are blood-related to Abraham are God's chosen people?

If so how can we know for sure that if we support Israel (the country) we are supporitng true blood-related Israelites without DNA testing them or something like that?

What if there are blood-related Israelites in Afghanistan or Iran, yes some even in the Taliban too, does this mean you would also support Afghanistan and Iran or even the Taliban when there are blood-related Israelites in those ?

Since there are more Jews living in the USA than in Israel, does this mean when we support the USA we are supporting God's chosen people?

 

[NazariteNation]

Since there are more Jews living in the USA than in Israel, does this mean when we support the USA we are supporting God's chosen people?

Actually, that has changed in the past year or so. I had just heard a report in the last few days that stated for first time in Israeli history there are now more Jews in Israel than there are in America.

Anyways, folks need to understand that God is indeed behind the current incarnation of Israel 100%. Not only is He gathering His people from the corner of the earth as promised but He is restoring the land also. How can any man or technology be accredited for the return of the seasonal rains which have all but disappeared over the last several hundred years? There's no doubt that God's hand is on Israel and all of those He has gathered together.

Let's not forget His promise to Abraham: "...I bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you..."

 

[NazariteNation]

The answer is simple folks... God is using the Jew to prepare the His headquarters, Jerusalem, for the Millenial Kingdom.

 

[NazariteNation]

I don't believe in "replacement theology" at all. It is that sort of heretical theology that is responsible for Catholicism, The Crusades, Mormonism, Jehova's Witness and the list goes on.

If you all get a chance, do a google search on a man by the name of Mike Evans. He is both a Jew and a Christian who has written a very interesting book about the many decades he spent in the service of our government as an advisor to several presidents and knows the Bush family intimately.

This man actually led George W. to Christ in the 80's however, in his book he talks about how replacement theology on the behalf of the American government is responsible for several huge blunders made in trying to bring peace to the Middle East.

 

[lil-rush]

I am enjoying the convo as well

I am just going to post verse 12 and 19 so you can see what I am trying to say, however I encourage you to read verse 12-19 in context as well.

Eph 2:12 & 19
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

We were strangers and aliens of the commonwealth of Israel, but now we are no longer strangers but fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel AND of the house hold of God.

oh, definitely. I agree with this. Whether Jew or Gentile, if we accept Christ we are all children of the same God and our home is the same place for all believers.

 

[lil-rush]

Responding a little to the long link lil-Rush posted.

(1) I do not think there are CHRISTIANS who hate, there might be people who believe themselves Christians who hate.
(2) I think Jesus (as I said before) forces people to either repent or to hate him...I do not really believe there is a middle ground...and I do not really accept a belief that jews can just remain aloof from accepting Christ and still be favored...
I think the Jews who will be saved may be a 'remnant' that become Christians--if you want to call this replacement theology I don't know...I read all of the link and, yes, while it seems a good idea not to hate jews (or anyone) I do not know how to relate to them...

I have gone to a Messeinic Jewish service and it was pretty awesome...but I believe Christians take on the name of Christ--and this fulfills soooo many prophecies...and am quizotic about what it means to people who are reluctant to do so--and would choose to say they are Messeinic and not Christian.

So was Paul a jew or a Christian? Do jews just become true jews when they believe in Christ or Christians?

I really do not think it is all the offspring of Abraham that are saved, but those who continue in faith...and is there any possibility of continuing in true jewish faith and not believing in Christ?

And lastly, what is the 'disobedience' that some of Israel is locked in that will be forgiven and changed in time by the Lord...

God bless
tony

1. It depends on the circumstances really, but I'm not going to go into that. Overall, this is true that true Christians are not hate-filled.
2. I agree that a person either loves Jesus or doesn't. However, if you cannot accept that Jews can turn their back on God and still be His Chosen People, then you have not been reading the OT enough. God may not be favoring the Jews right now (no one knows what is in the mind of God) but this does not mean He has forsaken them. He made a covenant with the Jews and God does not break covenants. And instead of condemning the Jews for rejecting Christ, would your time not be better spent evangelizing to the Jews?
I'm not talking about Jews that will be saved or not saved. I'm simply stating that Jews are still bound in a covenant with God and still His Chosen People.

The thing is Christians persecuted Jews. Messianics are Jews. Why would they want to be called by the same name of people who persecuted them in the past? Also the title Messianic is the same as the title Christian. Messianic=Messiah. Christian=Christ. Messiah=Christ.

Paul was a Messianic Jew. No, Jews do not become "true Jews" when they accept Christ. Jews are Jews are Jews. If a person is a Jew then that is that. When a Jew decides Jesus is the Messiah, they become a Messianic Jew. Now a Jew can also turn his back on Jewish beliefs completely and become a follower of the Christian beliefs.

The covenant made with Abraham says nothing of his descendants being saved. The two scriptures in Genesis say Abraham will be a father of a great nation, his descendants will be blessed, they will own the land of numerous peoples. It does not say anything about them being "saved" or getting accepted into God's kingdom. One can assume that BC Jews who followed God prepared a place for themselves in heaven, but that is not at all connected with the covenant.

 

[lil-rush]

Isn't it according to your views that those who are blood-related to Abraham are God's chosen people?

If so how can we know for sure that if we support Israel (the country) we are supporitng true blood-related Israelites without DNA testing them or something like that?

What if there are blood-related Israelites in Afghanistan or Iran, yes some even in the Taliban too, does this mean you would also support Afghanistan and Iran or even the Taliban when there are blood-related Israelites in those ?

Since there are more Jews living in the USA than in Israel, does this mean when we support the USA we are supporting God's chosen people?

Yes. I was using Israelites as a general term.

You do realize that Israelites can be more obsessed with bloodlines than British people, right? I am positive that a vast majority of the Jews in Israel are direct descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel(Jacob). Also, Jews are very stringent in their terms of who can return to Israel in projects that help Jews return to their ancestral homeland. For example, my friend would not be allowed to return because he is Messianic.

No, because prophecy is not directed toward Ishmael's people. It is directed toward Isaac's people. Also, I am speaking specifically of the land of Israel(nation), as well as of the people of Israel(Jacob).

No.

 

[lil-rush]

I don't believe in "replacement theology" at all. It is that sort of heretical theology that is responsible for Catholicism, The Crusades, Mormonism, Jehova's Witness and the list goes on.

If you all get a chance, do a google search on a man by the name of Mike Evans. He is both a Jew and a Christian who has written a very interesting book about the many decades he spent in the service of our government as an advisor to several presidents and knows the Bush family intimately.

This man actually led George W. to Christ in the 80's however, in his book he talks about how replacement theology on the behalf of the American government is responsible for several huge blunders made in trying to bring peace to the Middle East.

I think I shall check this man out.

 

[thefightinglamb]

I do tend to favor Israel as a person but am still confounded by why...

Okay, so do you support all the rituals and such that they still practice--though the reality has come and they know it not...

I know very few Christians who would tell others: you can continue in your way of life, your habits et cetera, and just believe in Jesus and not follow and be saved...

What do you actually believe their rituals do? Anything? Seems superfuluos to me if they miss Jesus.

Paul was a Christian...he had come from a jewish background...he was a jew in the since that it was his bloodline--he no longer followed Jewish ways of life after conversion--neither did Cephas--as Acts writes (when Paul questioned Cephas and said that he lived like the gentiles and NOT like the jews (there is a difference noted here in scripture) how can he enforce jewish customs on the gentiles--when he drew back from the gentiles when he saw jewish background Christians come into the assembly) and called it simply what it was hypocrosy.

Are Jews that follow rituals to reach God (though the reality of Jesus has completed them) are like children still playing summer sports through fall and into autumn--NOT knowing that the time has past, they just continue in 'what they consider' the safety of their customs?

I do not condemn the Jews or anyone--I think anyone who hates Jesus condemns themselves as scripture suggests.

Messienic Jews are saved even if they reject the letters of Paul? Could a Christian exist with such heresy? They have continually been denounced.

Still wondering

Peace to God's people
tony

 

[lil-rush]

I do tend to favor Israel as a person but am still confounded by why...

Okay, so do you support all the rituals and such that they still practice--though the reality has come and they know it not...

I know very few Christians who would tell others: you can continue in your way of life, your habits et cetera, and just believe in Jesus and not follow and be saved...

What do you actually believe their rituals do? Anything? Seems superfuluos to me if they miss Jesus.

I actually posted a thread about following the 613 mitzvot, and whether or not Christians should still follow them. The mitzvot, if one who believes in Christ still believes in following them, are an expression of love to God. By following them you are saying "I know the only way to be saved is through your son, Yeshua, but in this act of obedience I am striving to show you that I am attempting to be God-like and live a holy and pure life for you."

Paul was a Christian...he had come from a jewish background...he was a jew in the since that it was his bloodline--he no longer followed Jewish ways of life after conversion--neither did Cephas--as Acts writes (when Paul questioned Cephas and said that he lived like the gentiles and NOT like the jews (there is a difference noted here in scripture) how can he enforce jewish customs on the gentiles--when he drew back from the gentiles when he saw jewish background Christians come into the assembly) and called it simply what it was hypocrosy.

While I wouldn't consider Paul a Messianic Jew in the traditional sense since he wasn't particularly obsessed with keeping the 613 mitzvot, he also never rejected his Jewish lineage so he was technically Messianic.

Are Jews that follow rituals to reach God (though the reality of Jesus has completed them) are like children still playing summer sports through fall and into autumn--NOT knowing that the time has past, they just continue in 'what they consider' the safety of their customs?

perhaps it is still summer, and everyone else is just jumping the gun by thinking autumn has come.

I do not condemn the Jews or anyone--I think anyone who hates Jesus condemns themselves as scripture suggests.

And so it should be our goal to lead them from condemnation and into the light. It seems like many Christians(and this is a generalization) are obsessed with pointing out how Jews are wrong and how Jews don't deserve God's blessing anymore. All I am saying is that our time could be better spent trying to lead Jews to conversion than making up silly doctrines like Replacement Theology.

Messienic Jews are saved even if they reject the letters of Paul? Could a Christian exist with such heresy? They have continually been denounced.

One need not accept Paul as scripture to be saved. The thing is that some Messianics see Paul as contradicting the OT, so they choose the OT over some Paul. They think the lessons he teach are good lessons (about as good as any noteworthy Rabbi's might be) but they do not see Paul's writing as infalliable sot they do not accept him as scripture.

This is not all Messianics' beliefs of course. Many Messianics accept Paul as scripture.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I am enjoying the convo as well

I am just going to post verse 12 and 19 so you can see what I am trying to say, however I encourage you to read verse 12-19 in context as well.

Eph 2:12 & 19
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

We were strangers and aliens of the commonwealth of Israel, but now we are no longer strangers but fellow citizens of the commonwealth of Israel AND of the house hold of God.

oh, definitely. I agree with this. Whether Jew or Gentile, if we accept Christ we are all children of the same God and our home is the same place for all believers.

Cool, I am glad we have found some common ground.

 

[lil-rush]

haha. It was bound to happen sooner or later I suppose.

 

[MahogonySnail]

so lil-rush
to be God's chosen you must a) be blood-line descended, and b) be Jewish (aka the religion). Is that correct?
Because I know some Muslims who have Jewish ancestry and just wondering if we consider them God's people too or only the Jews living in Israel.
Thankyou.

 

[thefightinglamb]

No, I think the point needs to be clarified if Jews are trapped in disobedience and God will free them when he will; or as you said they need to be converted or believe in Jesus...if God traps them in their blindness then why did Paul preach Christ to the jews? And didn't Jesus say he came for the jews? What is the relevance or ramifications of them not accepting him if they are indeed still his people?

I think both jews and gentiles come together under the name Christian--I do not think that is replacement, so much as two people coming to gether under one name, Jews with saving faith are not replaced so much as joined. So its affirming the true faith of believing gentiles that believe in Jesus and also of the gentiles, and neither matters anymore...it is arduous to try and decipher between Jesus jews and Christians...and if they are still divided by those terms then they truly were never made into one people, right?

Answer this: Is there ANY way possible that a jew can have sincere (true) faith in God and NOT recognize his Son? Seems impossible if God had a Son and they believed in that God that they could miss him, or impossible that God would not show Jews with faith his Son...it is hard for me to think that jews can believe in the true God and not accept his Son and still claim to be God's people...

And it isn't that I am correcting jews as trying to understand where exactly there are spiritually...

 

[thefightinglamb]

I meant believing jews and gentiles, not believing gentiles and gentiles.

What term other than Christian is there for both jews and gentiles that come to God?

 

[lil-rush]

so lil-rush
to be God's chosen you must a) be blood-line descended, and b) be Jewish (aka the religion). Is that correct?
Because I know some Muslims who have Jewish ancestry and just wondering if we consider them God's people too or only the Jews living in Israel.
Thankyou.

Pretty much, yes. except one need not live in Israel to be God's chosen people.

 

[lil-rush]

No, I think the point needs to be clarified if Jews are trapped in disobedience and God will free them when he will; or as you said they need to be converted or believe in Jesus...if God traps them in their blindness then why did Paul preach Christ to the jews? And didn't Jesus say he came for the jews? What is the relevance or ramifications of them not accepting him if they are indeed still his people?

If I deny my father, leave his house, and turn my back on him, am I not still his daughter? Israel(the people) is the epitome of the Prodigal son. They left their father, but their father never left them. He is waiting on the road, watching diligently for the return on His wayward children. What father would God be if He turned His back on His children simply because they do not accept His son?

I think both jews and gentiles come together under the name Christian--I do not think that is replacement, so much as two people coming to gether under one name, Jews with saving faith are not replaced so much as joined. So its affirming the true faith of believing gentiles that believe in Jesus and also of the gentiles, and neither matters anymore...it is arduous to try and decipher between Jesus jews and Christians...and if they are still divided by those terms then they truly were never made into one people, right?

Both Messianic Jews and Christians are Christ-followers, but their beliefs are different so it is easier to give them two different names for clarification sake. It is the same as calling one Christian a Southern Baptist and another a Lutheran.

Answer this: Is there ANY way possible that a jew can have sincere (true) faith in God and NOT recognize his Son? Seems impossible if God had a Son and they believed in that God that they could miss him, or impossible that God would not show Jews with faith his Son...it is hard for me to think that jews can believe in the true God and not accept his Son and still claim to be God's people...

I believe Jews and Christians worship the same God (as opposed to the Muslim God). We both worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is necessary that Jews would reject Jesus, because it fulfills prophecy.

And it isn't that I am correcting jews as trying to understand where exactly there are spiritually...

spiritually they are half-way there, but half-way isn't good enough. Once they accept Christ as their savior than they are spiritually secure.

 

[thefightinglamb]

Colossians 2:16

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassions, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Also wondering if you or others believe that Jews who believe in Christ have a choice rather to become Messenic Jews or Christians that is totally up to them...

Don't you kind of think the term Messeinic Jew is kind of like either messeinic Gentile (that believes in the Jesus) or as Paul writes those of us who are jews by birth and not Gentile Sinners? So those are two type of people if you will...but Christian is something different is is both jews and gentiles who believe together, right?

God bless
tony

ps. what happened to stratsomaster or whatever his name was that used to be a Jew--he would have been really helpful on much in this discussion? Like when he came to Christ--did he chose? If not we would know...

 

[lil-rush]

I think you posted the wrong scripture reference. It's Colossians 3:12. I think there is a difference between the chosen spoken of in Colossians and the Chosen spoken of in Genesis and Deuteronomy (7:6-8).

lt's definitely a choice as to what you want to believe. Some Jewish converts cast aside all their Jewish customs and assimilate into the Christian religion. Others hold to their Jewish customs and beliefs and become Messianic Jews.

I have a friend who was raised Jewish until he was about 12 I believe and then his parents converted. And by converted I mean they started going to church on Sunday, no longer keep the 613 Mitzvot, etc. He, however, was reluctant to accept Christ as the messiah at first. When he finally did, he still kept to his Jewish beliefs. He follows the 613 mitzvot as best he can, he does not believe in working on the Sabbath(which is Saturday), he has a Hebrew Bible, types God, Lord, etc with a "-" in place of the o, so as to not use the Lord's name in vain, doesn't believe Paul is scripture, doesn't believe in the trinity, etc. So, his parents are now what we consider Christians and he is a Messianic Jew.

 

[Stratocaster]

ps. what happened to stratsomaster or whatever his name was that used to be a Jew--he would have been really helpful on much in this discussion? Like when he came to Christ--did he chose? If not we would know...

Quite a bit of posting since my I last delved into this thread

I havent had time to read everything, but there was some talk about a messianic congregation. It's been my experience that many messianic Jewish synagogues have tried too hard to conform to Jewish traditions and customs, while grafting it together into a faith in Christ, and end up with some pretty shaky theology. There is one here where I live, and thankfully they have a much better grasp on what it means to be a true "Jew for Jesus" than many others of the same denomination.

There was one question I had to ask them though. I never found anything in scripture (old testament or new) that allured to the concept of a yamica (keepa, ect. The small round covering Jewish people put on their heads). I was always raised being told it's tradition; that we wear them to say that we are unrighteous in the eyes of God, so we cover our heads to humble ourselves. In Christ we have been made righteous though, and there is a verse in 1Corinthians that says that men should not pray with their heads covered. Yet the congregation still wears the yamicas. I asked them why that is, and they never got back to me about it. I kept asking, and they never had an answer. Maybe one of you has an answer?

Anyway, I'm not sure what the discussion is about Jews coming to Christ (having not read everything yet) but basically, I was on this bus trip. I didn't talk to many people for a while, I just kind of watched people interact with each other. I was always taught that Jesus (Yeshua) was a false prophet, but they never really explained why. I knew that my people had been waiting for a messiah, but I didn't question it much. On that bus trip I started to realize all the things God had done in my life and how I had ended up on that bus as a result of it. I felt this emptiness about my life, and I saw that all my other Jewish friends there also had that emptiness. It made me think about what I was doing wrong. I had been "a good jew" my whole life, but I still didn't really feel like God was who the torah says He is. I also saw Christians around me who, although I didn't talk to them about God, seemed to have that fullness in the area I was empty. I started thinking about the idea of a messiah, and came to the conclusion that it must be Christ. I prayed to Christ for the first time on that bus, and two week later I decided to accept Him into my life to be my Lord.

I hope that helps =D