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Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Once more I must post and remind folks how I understand the word Jew.
The word Jew is short for Judah. I know the names in the Hebrew language, but here I am using the transliterated versions for clarity's sake and understanding.
When Leah gave birth to Judah she declared that she would praise the Lord.
Gen 29:35
Then she conceived yet again, bore a son, and said, "This time I'll praise the LORD." So she named him Judah. Then she stopped bearing children.
All who praise Yahweh are Jews by translation. I have known this since I first read the Word in 1969. It is only recently I have studied Hebrew in earnest. So it is evident one does not need be a Hebrew scholar to know why we are all Jews by translation.
With our King being the King of the Jews, I believe this bit of understanding edifies all who believe and love our fellow Jews. Praise the Lord, amen.
Once more I must post and remind folks how I understand the word Jew.
The word Jew is short for Judah. I know the names in the Hebrew language, but here I am using the transliterated versions for clarity's sake and understanding.
When Leah gave birth to Judah she declared that she would praise the Lord.
Gen 29:35
Then she conceived yet again, bore a son, and said, "This time I'll praise the LORD." So she named him Judah. Then she stopped bearing children.
All who praise Yahweh are Jews by translation. I have known this since I first read the Word in 1969. It is only recently I have studied Hebrew in earnest. So it is evident one does not need be a Hebrew scholar to know why we are all Jews by translation.
With our King being the King of the Jews, I believe this bit of understanding edifies all who believe and love our fellow Jews. Praise the Lord, amen.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Let me begin with the principle that only Biblical interpretation of prophetic riddles
is certain and authoritative, as, for example, the Biblical interpretations of Da 2:37-45 and Rev 17:9-18.
All other interpretations of prophetic riddles are private and uncertain.
Regarding the riddle of Isa 11:10-12,
others validly interpret it to mean the return from Babylonian exile, which has been fulfilled.
The authority for private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles is certain NT teaching.
So does your private and uncertain interpretation of the riddle in Isa Isa 11:10-12 agree with Gal 3:16?
If not, your private interpretation is incorrect.
I note that the other interpretation is in agreement with Gal 3:16.
Let me begin with the principle that only Biblical interpretation of prophetic riddles
is certain and authoritative, as, for example, the Biblical interpretations of Da 2:37-45 and Rev 17:9-18.
All other interpretations of prophetic riddles are private and uncertain.
Regarding the riddle of Isa 11:10-12,
others validly interpret it to mean the return from Babylonian exile, which has been fulfilled.
The authority for private and uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles is certain NT teaching.
So does your private and uncertain interpretation of the riddle in Isa Isa 11:10-12 agree with Gal 3:16?
If not, your private interpretation is incorrect.
I note that the other interpretation is in agreement with Gal 3:16.
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Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Thank you for your reply. You are scratching however, where I am not itching. Jews as well as gentiles will be saved the same way through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And in the new Heaven and new Earth messianic Jews will be Indistinguishable with gentile Christians, just as they are today. That is a separate issue to the JEWS being regathered today IN THE LAND as outlined in Isaiah. THAT has to come 1st. THAT is where we are TODAY. Terrible things will continue to happen to Israel and the Jews in God's attempt to have some remnant repent, realize, and accept Jesus.
I don't see Isaiah as a "private and uncertain" interpretation. I am merely believing what the text actually says.
I don't see any contradiction with Gal.3:16 and Isaiah 11:10-12.
Finally, since YOU acknowledge that the 1st regathering occurred after Babylon, and the 2nd hasn't happened yet,and Christian are commissioned to go out to the whole world AND NOT gather in Israel, the questions remain unanswered by you. If what I just wrote is wrong, why does God distinguish between gentiles and Jews in Isaiah?
Thank you for your reply. You are scratching however, where I am not itching. Jews as well as gentiles will be saved the same way through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And in the new Heaven and new Earth messianic Jews will be Indistinguishable with gentile Christians, just as they are today. That is a separate issue to the JEWS being regathered today IN THE LAND as outlined in Isaiah. THAT has to come 1st. THAT is where we are TODAY. Terrible things will continue to happen to Israel and the Jews in God's attempt to have some remnant repent, realize, and accept Jesus.
I don't see Isaiah as a "private and uncertain" interpretation. I am merely believing what the text actually says.
I don't see any contradiction with Gal.3:16 and Isaiah 11:10-12.
Finally, since YOU acknowledge that the 1st regathering occurred after Babylon, and the 2nd hasn't happened yet,and Christian are commissioned to go out to the whole world AND NOT gather in Israel, the questions remain unanswered by you. If what I just wrote is wrong, why does God distinguish between gentiles and Jews in Isaiah?
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
That not what the NT teaches.
The land promise was given to Abraham and his descendants.
If you belong to Christ, you are Abrahams' seed and inherit the promises to Abraham (Ro 4:11; Gal 3:29).
The "first dealing" of the land promise (Canaan) has been fulfilled (Josh 21:43-45; 1Kgs 4:21, 24-25),
as the promise of the return to Babylon, their return to God, the rebuilding of the walls and Temple, etc.
have been fulfilled.
There remains only the "second dealing" (everlasting possession) to all those who believe,
who are in Christ, both OT and NT saints (Ro 4:11; Gal 3:16, 29).
That not what the NT teaches.
The land promise was given to Abraham and his descendants.
If you belong to Christ, you are Abrahams' seed and inherit the promises to Abraham (Ro 4:11; Gal 3:29).
The "first dealing" of the land promise (Canaan) has been fulfilled (Josh 21:43-45; 1Kgs 4:21, 24-25),
as the promise of the return to Babylon, their return to God, the rebuilding of the walls and Temple, etc.
have been fulfilled.
There remains only the "second dealing" (everlasting possession) to all those who believe,
who are in Christ, both OT and NT saints (Ro 4:11; Gal 3:16, 29).
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Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
No, this was not fulfilled at the time of Babylon and that would not be considered a valid interpretation. First, you need to see the context provided in the preceding verses. Verses 3-4 discuss "JUDGMENT" which does not happen until after the Second Coming as Christ did NOT judge when He came before. Verse 4 also discusses the Lord "Striking the Earth with the Rod of His Mouth." We have many passages that discuss this Rod and it is always Post Second Coming.
Verses 6-8 discusses dangerous animals who become safe. This has not happened since at least the time of Noah.
Verse 9 sets the timing:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.
The earth has not been full of the knowledge of the Lord at any point since Isaiah so this is future.
Now look at verses 11-12 again:
11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Notice that the gathering is stated as being, "the second time?" Notice also where they are being gathered from? It isn't Babylon. It is from ALL OVER.
It's debatable if the first gathering was even Post-Babylon or if it happened in 1948. It was following Babylon that many returned but many others stayed in Babylon (Including Daniel) and many more were scattered over the Caucus's Mountains and settled into Northern Europe. The term "Caucasian" actually came from this event. So post Babylon could very well be considered a further scattering and not a gathering although many did return to Israel.
One thing is for sure, Isaiah 11 has not been fulfilled and is not past history. I am 100% certain about that. The following chapters deal with the outcomes of many nations of the enemies of Israel which also have not been fulfilled. There is even a reference to the USA (I believe) in Isaiah 18.
...to a nation tall and smooth of skin, To a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide...
I cannot think of another nation that fits this description better than the USA.
No, this was not fulfilled at the time of Babylon and that would not be considered a valid interpretation. First, you need to see the context provided in the preceding verses. Verses 3-4 discuss "JUDGMENT" which does not happen until after the Second Coming as Christ did NOT judge when He came before. Verse 4 also discusses the Lord "Striking the Earth with the Rod of His Mouth." We have many passages that discuss this Rod and it is always Post Second Coming.
Verses 6-8 discusses dangerous animals who become safe. This has not happened since at least the time of Noah.
Verse 9 sets the timing:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.
The earth has not been full of the knowledge of the Lord at any point since Isaiah so this is future.
Now look at verses 11-12 again:
11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Notice that the gathering is stated as being, "the second time?" Notice also where they are being gathered from? It isn't Babylon. It is from ALL OVER.
It's debatable if the first gathering was even Post-Babylon or if it happened in 1948. It was following Babylon that many returned but many others stayed in Babylon (Including Daniel) and many more were scattered over the Caucus's Mountains and settled into Northern Europe. The term "Caucasian" actually came from this event. So post Babylon could very well be considered a further scattering and not a gathering although many did return to Israel.
One thing is for sure, Isaiah 11 has not been fulfilled and is not past history. I am 100% certain about that. The following chapters deal with the outcomes of many nations of the enemies of Israel which also have not been fulfilled. There is even a reference to the USA (I believe) in Isaiah 18.
...to a nation tall and smooth of skin, To a people terrible from their beginning onward, A nation powerful and treading down, Whose land the rivers divide...
I cannot think of another nation that fits this description better than the USA.
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Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Sorry Erin, I simply don't subscribe to replacement theology. The land promise to Abraham and his descendents continues even through the promises of their prophets where they would be regathered from the four corners of the earth after being mistreated where ever they were driven. We have seen the beginning of this regathering in the 19th century and it continues to this day. Yes in unbelief, but the tribulation will sift them until the remnant will call on the name of the Lord and thus ...
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom. 11:26
Obviously you are entrenched in your position and I in mine and I have little interest in trying to move our immovable stances.
Sorry Erin, I simply don't subscribe to replacement theology. The land promise to Abraham and his descendents continues even through the promises of their prophets where they would be regathered from the four corners of the earth after being mistreated where ever they were driven. We have seen the beginning of this regathering in the 19th century and it continues to this day. Yes in unbelief, but the tribulation will sift them until the remnant will call on the name of the Lord and thus ...
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Rom. 11:26
Obviously you are entrenched in your position and I in mine and I have little interest in trying to move our immovable stances.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
That's a good one!
Agreed.
There is no death in the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21:4), which is eternity.
Sorry I did not make myself clear.
Salvation, and non-distinction between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ and in the new heavens and new earth is not my issue.
My issue is interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Others interpret Isa differently.
Only Biblical interpretations of prophecy are certain and authoritative.
We have no interpretation of Isa stated in the Bible, as we do of Da 2:37-45, or Rev 17:9-18.
So all interpretation of Isa is private and uncertain.
That is the itch I was scratching.
You interpret Isa one way, and others interpret it to mean things entirely different.
We have no authoritative Biblical interpretation of Isa, which is certain,
we have only private and differing interpretations of Isa, with no Biblical authority
declaring which, if any, is correct.
Keeping in mind that others see a different meaning in the same text.
Not exactly. . .I didn't say it was the first return.
Isa 11:16 gives an indication of the first return as the Exodus from Egypt.
The return from Babylon would be the second return.
My engagement is in Biblical interpretation of prophetic riddles.
I don't much engage in personal interpretation of prophecy,
because it would be only private and uncertain as are all the others.
So I am not in a position to answer your questions regarding their meaning.
That's a good one!
Agreed.
There is no death in the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21:4), which is eternity.
Sorry I did not make myself clear.
Salvation, and non-distinction between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ and in the new heavens and new earth is not my issue.
My issue is interpretation of prophetic riddles.
Others interpret Isa differently.
Only Biblical interpretations of prophecy are certain and authoritative.
We have no interpretation of Isa stated in the Bible, as we do of Da 2:37-45, or Rev 17:9-18.
So all interpretation of Isa is private and uncertain.
That is the itch I was scratching.
You interpret Isa one way, and others interpret it to mean things entirely different.
We have no authoritative Biblical interpretation of Isa, which is certain,
we have only private and differing interpretations of Isa, with no Biblical authority
declaring which, if any, is correct.
Keeping in mind that others see a different meaning in the same text.
Not exactly. . .I didn't say it was the first return.
Isa 11:16 gives an indication of the first return as the Exodus from Egypt.
The return from Babylon would be the second return.
My engagement is in Biblical interpretation of prophetic riddles.
I don't much engage in personal interpretation of prophecy,
because it would be only private and uncertain as are all the others.
So I am not in a position to answer your questions regarding their meaning.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Context, relationships, time lines, etc. in prophetic riddles are a matter of interpretation,
which, in the absence of a certain Biblical interpretation (as in Da 2:37-45, Rev 17:8-19),
are based in private and uncertain interpretation of these riddles.
Or. . .if it were the exodus from Eqypt, making Isa 11:10-12 the second gathering.
Yes, private interpretation of prophetic riddles is uncertain.
I understand this is what you think about Isa.
Others think differently.
I also know that only Biblically-stated interpretation of prophecy (as in Da 2:37-45,
or Rev 17:8-19) is certain and authoritative.
All other interpretation is private and uncertain interpretation of riddles.
Context, relationships, time lines, etc. in prophetic riddles are a matter of interpretation,
which, in the absence of a certain Biblical interpretation (as in Da 2:37-45, Rev 17:8-19),
are based in private and uncertain interpretation of these riddles.
Or. . .if it were the exodus from Eqypt, making Isa 11:10-12 the second gathering.
Yes, private interpretation of prophetic riddles is uncertain.
I understand this is what you think about Isa.
Others think differently.
I also know that only Biblically-stated interpretation of prophecy (as in Da 2:37-45,
or Rev 17:8-19) is certain and authoritative.
All other interpretation is private and uncertain interpretation of riddles.
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Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
A bit more hydro-cortisone may be needed from you to assuage my itch. Forgive my untech savvy inability to grab and highlight certain parts of your reply, but how could they have been "regathered" the 1st time after Egypt, when their wasn't even a nation of Israel yet, they went to Egypt of their own free will to escape famine (all 70 of them), and MOST of all, the SECOND regathering speaks about recovering the JEWS from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH? How could that apply to after the Babylonian captivity?
If God is finished with the Jews who haven't repented and accepted Jesus, why have they been persecuted lo these 2 millenia, like no other people on Earth? Satan continues to persecute them today. Why? He should be happy with the Jews today. There is anti-semitism in every nation on Earth. Why? They are less than 1% of the gobal pop. The hatred of the Jews makes no sense unless you understand that it is satanic.
AND MOST OF ALL THE JEWS ARE BACK IN THE LAND. AND IT"S CALLED ISRAEL. you can literally go to Israel TODAY
The problem with this "replacement theology" stuff is it plays right into the mistreatment and persecution by the anti-semites.
A bit more hydro-cortisone may be needed from you to assuage my itch. Forgive my untech savvy inability to grab and highlight certain parts of your reply, but how could they have been "regathered" the 1st time after Egypt, when their wasn't even a nation of Israel yet, they went to Egypt of their own free will to escape famine (all 70 of them), and MOST of all, the SECOND regathering speaks about recovering the JEWS from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH? How could that apply to after the Babylonian captivity?
If God is finished with the Jews who haven't repented and accepted Jesus, why have they been persecuted lo these 2 millenia, like no other people on Earth? Satan continues to persecute them today. Why? He should be happy with the Jews today. There is anti-semitism in every nation on Earth. Why? They are less than 1% of the gobal pop. The hatred of the Jews makes no sense unless you understand that it is satanic.
AND MOST OF ALL THE JEWS ARE BACK IN THE LAND. AND IT"S CALLED ISRAEL. you can literally go to Israel TODAY
The problem with this "replacement theology" stuff is it plays right into the mistreatment and persecution by the anti-semites.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Hey, guy,
I don't do "replacement theology," and I don't do interpretation of prophetic riddles,
because they can be interpreted in more than one way.
So I'm not the one to ask to explain them.
I do what whose meaning is certain and unequivocal in the Bible.
And no one is less tech savvy than I am.
Hey, guy,
I don't do "replacement theology," and I don't do interpretation of prophetic riddles,
because they can be interpreted in more than one way.
So I'm not the one to ask to explain them.
I do what whose meaning is certain and unequivocal in the Bible.
And no one is less tech savvy than I am.
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F
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Israel is under attack as God said it would be in the last days. "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem." Zechariah 12:2
Today Jews from around the world are being returned to Israel. The Word of God tells us that it is Christians (believing Gentiles) who will bring them home. "Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders." (Isaiah 49:22)
Operation Tarshish is a ministry which God has raised up to bring His Covenanted Peoples, the Jews, home to Israel, the Land He swore on oath to give them.
"I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:2-3
If you feel that you're one of those 'Gentiles' that God spoke about take a look at Operation Tarshish:
Tarshish Home page
Israel is under attack as God said it would be in the last days. "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem." Zechariah 12:2
Today Jews from around the world are being returned to Israel. The Word of God tells us that it is Christians (believing Gentiles) who will bring them home. "Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders." (Isaiah 49:22)
Operation Tarshish is a ministry which God has raised up to bring His Covenanted Peoples, the Jews, home to Israel, the Land He swore on oath to give them.
"I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:2-3
If you feel that you're one of those 'Gentiles' that God spoke about take a look at Operation Tarshish:
Tarshish Home page
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Well, what I gather from certain NT teaching is this:
I.
"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but
"and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (Gal 3:16)
Conclusion: the promises spoken to Abraham are locked up in Christ.
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
(Gal 3:29)
Conclusion: All those in Christ inherit the promises to Abraham.
II.
"He (Abraham, v.9) was looking forward to the city with foundations,
whose architect and builder is God. . .
All these people (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were still living by faith when they died.
They did not receive the things promised;"
they only saw them from a distance and welcomed them. (Heb 11:10, 13)
Conclusion: Abraham lived in tents, but he looked forward to the more permanent
home in the city with foundations, the "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) promised him.
When they died, the patriarchs were still living in faith in the promised "everlasting possession,"
and not in the fulfillment of the promise.
God did not keep the promise he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally ("you," Ge 17:8,
26:3, 35:12) of an "everlasting possession."
III.
"And they admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.
People who say such things (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9) show that they were looking
for a country of their own.
If they had been thinking of the country they had left (Canaan--Ge 12:6-7),
they would have had opportunity to return.
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one
Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared
a city/land for them." (Heb 11:13-16)
Conclusion: The patriarchs did not consider God's promise of an "everlasting possession"
to be Canaan, or they would have returned to it.
That country of their own (Heb 11:4) in contrast to Canaan, the country not their own (Ge 15:13),
that better country for which they were looking, in contrast to Canaan, the
country of three famines (Ge 12:10, 26:1, 41:54),
that country of hope and promise (Heb 11:13), was the heavenly country, not Canaan.
The hope of the promised "everlasting possession" was not earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10),
but was heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
This authoritative and certain explanation of the land promise in Heb 11:6-13
must be reckoned with in order to have a Biblical understanding of the promise to Abraham.
IV.
1) So all God's promises are locked up in Christ, including the promise of an "everlasting possession."
2) So God did keep his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession," in the heavenly city/land
and, therefore, is not ashamed to be called their God because he has kept his promise to them.
3) All God's promises are "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ (2Co 1:20).
All those in Christ participate in all the promises of God.
God has no promises to anyone else.
So the answer to your question above
"Do all who trust in Jesus get the land forever?"
is yes, they get the everlasting possession of the heavenly land of the promise.
And I'll also ask the question here: have I missed something?
< BUMP >
NB: Objections to the above are addressed
here, here, here,
here, here, here,
here, here.
Well, what I gather from certain NT teaching is this:
I.
"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but
"and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (Gal 3:16)
Conclusion: the promises spoken to Abraham are locked up in Christ.
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
(Gal 3:29)
Conclusion: All those in Christ inherit the promises to Abraham.
II.
"He (Abraham, v.9) was looking forward to the city with foundations,
whose architect and builder is God. . .
All these people (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were still living by faith when they died.
They did not receive the things promised;"
they only saw them from a distance and welcomed them. (Heb 11:10, 13)
Conclusion: Abraham lived in tents, but he looked forward to the more permanent
home in the city with foundations, the "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4) promised him.
When they died, the patriarchs were still living in faith in the promised "everlasting possession,"
and not in the fulfillment of the promise.
God did not keep the promise he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally ("you," Ge 17:8,
26:3, 35:12) of an "everlasting possession."
III.
"And they admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.
People who say such things (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9) show that they were looking
for a country of their own.
If they had been thinking of the country they had left (Canaan--Ge 12:6-7),
they would have had opportunity to return.
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one
Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared
a city/land for them." (Heb 11:13-16)
Conclusion: The patriarchs did not consider God's promise of an "everlasting possession"
to be Canaan, or they would have returned to it.
That country of their own (Heb 11:4) in contrast to Canaan, the country not their own (Ge 15:13),
that better country for which they were looking, in contrast to Canaan, the
country of three famines (Ge 12:10, 26:1, 41:54),
that country of hope and promise (Heb 11:13), was the heavenly country, not Canaan.
The hope of the promised "everlasting possession" was not earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10),
but was heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
This authoritative and certain explanation of the land promise in Heb 11:6-13
must be reckoned with in order to have a Biblical understanding of the promise to Abraham.
IV.
1) So all God's promises are locked up in Christ, including the promise of an "everlasting possession."
2) So God did keep his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession," in the heavenly city/land
and, therefore, is not ashamed to be called their God because he has kept his promise to them.
3) All God's promises are "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ (2Co 1:20).
All those in Christ participate in all the promises of God.
God has no promises to anyone else.
So the answer to your question above
"Do all who trust in Jesus get the land forever?"
is yes, they get the everlasting possession of the heavenly land of the promise.
And I'll also ask the question here: have I missed something?
< BUMP >
NB: Objections to the above are addressed
here, here, here,
here, here, here,
here, here.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
Sorry PennEd,
Israel has ALREADY been returned to the land TWICE. This is all that Isaiah 11 says
Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
The Babylonian captivity is the SECOND return to the land. If people would ACTUALLY take what the Bible clearly says you would know that. In fact the Bible clearly tells us they had ALREADY returned the first time. All these people had ALREADY lived in the promised land. Abraham,Issac,Jacob (Israel),his twelve sons (tribes). They left the promised land because of a famine.
Genesis and Hebrews 11 tells us that Abraham,Issac and Jacob(Israel) all LIVED in the promised land.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
It is so simple if a people lived in a place,left that same place and came back to that place they have RETURNED to that place.
Sorry PennEd,
Israel has ALREADY been returned to the land TWICE. This is all that Isaiah 11 says
Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
The Babylonian captivity is the SECOND return to the land. If people would ACTUALLY take what the Bible clearly says you would know that. In fact the Bible clearly tells us they had ALREADY returned the first time. All these people had ALREADY lived in the promised land. Abraham,Issac,Jacob (Israel),his twelve sons (tribes). They left the promised land because of a famine.
Genesis and Hebrews 11 tells us that Abraham,Issac and Jacob(Israel) all LIVED in the promised land.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
It is so simple if a people lived in a place,left that same place and came back to that place they have RETURNED to that place.
Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts
At this time in the Church Age, God is working through a called out assembly of born again Bible believing Christians who have been given the ministry of reconciliation to reach the lost with the Gospel.
Well it depends on which promises you are referring to. There are promises given to the Nation of Israel that Christians do not get. Also, there are promises given to the Body of Christ (the Church) which are separate from the promises made to Israel.
We (the Body of Christ) get the Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom (i.e. Mind of Christ, New Glorified Body, New Jerusalem, and all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:3).
Israel at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble; and at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ gets completely converted as a Nation (Rom. 11:26) (Zech. 12:10). And Israel will receive the physical promises which God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of physical land (Gen. 15:18; Psa. 105:6-11).
Therefore, Israel gets the Kingdom of Heaven (physical Kingdom, physical promises and blessings, physical land and real estate). The Jews will inherit the New Earth for all Eternity. The Body of Christ inherits New Jerusalem. The Gentiles in Eternity inherit outer Space.
Both saved Jews and saved Gentiles. (Gal. 3:28-29 & Col. 3:11).
A very important thing to note is the difference between Israel, God's chosen people. And the Church, which is a mystery (Eph. 3:4, 9; 5:32).
The Church is NOT spiritual Israel. Christians are NOT spiritual Jews. The Church has not replaced Israel. God still has a future for the Nation of Israel.
At this time in the Church Age, God is working through a called out assembly of born again Bible believing Christians who have been given the ministry of reconciliation to reach the lost with the Gospel.
Well it depends on which promises you are referring to. There are promises given to the Nation of Israel that Christians do not get. Also, there are promises given to the Body of Christ (the Church) which are separate from the promises made to Israel.
We (the Body of Christ) get the Kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom (i.e. Mind of Christ, New Glorified Body, New Jerusalem, and all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:3).
Israel at the end of the time of Jacob's trouble; and at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ gets completely converted as a Nation (Rom. 11:26) (Zech. 12:10). And Israel will receive the physical promises which God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of physical land (Gen. 15:18; Psa. 105:6-11).
Therefore, Israel gets the Kingdom of Heaven (physical Kingdom, physical promises and blessings, physical land and real estate). The Jews will inherit the New Earth for all Eternity. The Body of Christ inherits New Jerusalem. The Gentiles in Eternity inherit outer Space.
Both saved Jews and saved Gentiles. (Gal. 3:28-29 & Col. 3:11).
A very important thing to note is the difference between Israel, God's chosen people. And the Church, which is a mystery (Eph. 3:4, 9; 5:32).
The Church is NOT spiritual Israel. Christians are NOT spiritual Jews. The Church has not replaced Israel. God still has a future for the Nation of Israel.