Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

MrsRoseTreasure · Jul 29, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Yes, you're missing something. You're missing prophecy. The word says that the Christians will be grafted into the Jews, not the other way around. At the end, we will all be in Jerusalem, learning the Torah at the feet of Messiah. The promise is for all believers. There will be no "Jews" or "Christians." As Paul saw in his vision, there is one people, one body of believers. There are no "unclean" people. There are people who have things wrong, like the Jews not believing that Messiah has come and gone. Prophecy says they will eventually accept him, and more and more Jews do everyday. Christians have a LOT of things wrong, and that's not what this conversation is about. That doesn't mean they don't have faith, or that they don't truly believe. Being wrong is not the same as being condemned to hell.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

All believers will gather in Jerusalem, and they will hear Messiah speak about his laws and about his paths, and teach us how to live his way. These divisions we make to cause ourselves to be superior to another group of people will become meaningless. The King of the Earth doesn't care what silly labels people make. He's cares about what's in your heart, and what you do in your life.

My god doesn't break his promises. Ever. If he made a promise to Israel, he's going to keep it. He's already doing it. If he made a promise to the multitudes, the goyim, he's going to keep it. If people think their god breaks promises, why do they think he's going to keep his promises to them? Either one believes the words out of his own mouth, or they don't. If they don't they think he's a liar and an oath-breaker.

1still_waters said:

bikerchaz · Jul 29, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

1still_waters said:

What you are missing, I think, is that the Jews,the descendants of Abraham, are just that, the descendants of abraham. When God gave His covenant promises to Abraham Issac and Jacob the consequences were clearly outlined, whether for good or otherwise.
People say God is a God of wrath because of the O.T., but the O.T. only shows someone who is jealous of his wife who blatantly throws the love shown to her back in her husbands face. Time and time again God sent his prophets and the dangers of not accepting His forgiveness were clearly laid out, right through all of Jewish history, and beyond the present.
All through history from AD70 the Jews have been persecuted, Jesus will not return until the two witnesses are dead and shown to be dead, and one of them are the Jews as a nation and a race.
The upshot is, God really loved Abraham, and, everything that the nation and race of the Jews have gone through since they were able to be called a race, has been as a witness to the earth that God exists, and He is real, and He is in charge whether we like it or not, and this world we inhabit will one day come to a shuddering halt. God has certainly not finished with the Jews, Paul said about the grafting on to the stock plant with wild cuttings and they are us, as gentiles we have been grafted on to the stock of Abraham, did not Paul also say "There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, rich or poor all are one in Christ Jesus. Paul again laments that his fellow Jews have as it were missed the boat, and he mentioned he would give his own life if it would bring them back to the fold, they have suffered for what they did to Jesus (nationally), I for one want to see this stop but it will not until "He comes whose right it is".
Try this one and see what the Holy Spirit gives you, Quiet your sole as you do and start reading Isiah from chapter 1 v 1, do not read it verse by verse, but read it paragraph by paragraph through at least the first seven chapters.
God bless

jahsoul · Jul 29, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

PennEd said:

I have to stop you right there. Israel and Judah were actually the split nations. When you read Kings and Chronicles, you will see that after the death of Solomon, the kingdom was split, with Israel taking the norther portion and Judah the southern. These people were actual descendants of Jacob but I digress. And like I explain somewhere else, Semitic doesn't mean religious Jew, but those that speak a certain language family; so by definition, hate towards Muslims is antisemitic and, from your mouth, satanic.

Elin · Jul 29, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

crossnote said:

Elin said:

Well, what I gather from certain NT teaching is this:

I.
"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.
The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but
"and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ." (Gal 3:16)

Conclusion: the promises spoken to Abraham are locked up in Christ.

"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
(Gal 3:29)

Conclusion: All those in Christ inherit the promises to Abraham.

II.
"He (Abraham, v.9) was looking forward to the city with foundations,
whose architect and builder is God. . .
All these people (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were still living by faith when they died.
They did not receive the things promised;"
they only saw them from a distance and welcomed them. (Heb 11:10, 13)

Conclusion: Abraham lived in tents, but he looked forward to the more permanent
home in the city with foundations, the "everlasting possession" promised him.

When they died, the patriarchs were still living in faith in the promised "everlasting possession,"
and not in the fulfillment of the promise.
God did not keep the promise he made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally,
of an "everlasting possession" (Ge 17:8, 48:4).

III.
"And they admitted they were aliens and strangers on earth.
People who say such things (Ge 23:4, 28:4, 47:9) show that they were looking
for a country of their own.
If they had been thinking of the country they had left (Canaan--Ge 12:6-7),
they would have had opportunity to return.
Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one
Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared
a city for them." (Heb 11:13-16)

Conclusion: The patriarchs did not consider God's promise of an "everlasting
possession" to be Canaan, or they would have returned to it.
That country of their own (Heb 11:4) in contrast to Canaan, the country not their own (Ge 15:13),
that better country for which they were looking, in contrast to Canaan, the
country of three famines (Ge 12:10, 26:1, 41:54),
that country of hope and promise (Heb 11:13), was the heavenly country, not Canaan.
The promsied "everlasting possession" was heavenly land (Heb 11:10, 16), not earthly land.

1) So all God's promises are locked up in Christ, including the promise of an "everlasting possession."

2) So God did keep his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession," in the heavenly city
and, therefore, is not ashamed to be called their God because he has kept his promise to them.

3) All God promises are "Yea" and "Amen" in Christ (2Co 1:20).
All those in Christ participate in all the promises of God.

God has no promises to anyone else.

And I'll also ask the question here: have I missed something?

Often when referring to the land, 'seed' is in the plural.

Genesis 13:15-16 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

What is the relevance to Gal 3:16 that the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, Christ, alone.

crossnote · Jul 29, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Elin said:

The promises of Gal 3:16 to the Jews and Gentiles as the Church thru the Seed (Christ) are spiritual blessings but do not include land or national blessings which were included to Abraham and his seed (pl). Point being, there are two dealings going on.

Hoffco · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

God has only one eternal covenant for His chosen people in Christ. Paul does not change the promises to Abraham ,Paul only clarifies the deal made to Abraham. This one eternal covenant is the Cov. of Grace, spelled out in Romans 8:29-30, mentioned in Hebrews 13:20, "the everlasting (eternal) covenant",In Jesus blood. it includes all the elect of all nations, tribes and tongues. The Bible knows only one RACE, The Human race. They are seen in Rev. 7:9 as the GM. Love to all, Hoffco

RachelBibleStudent · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

the biggest difficulty that usually comes up right away in discussions of this topic is misunderstanding about what 'replacement theology' actually is...many people assume that anything that isn't dispensationalism must be some form of replacement theology...when really in the scriptural alternative to dispensationalism nothing is actually 'replaced' at all!

the main issue here is understanding what the biblical definition of 'israel' is...here are some scriptures that make it clear...

exodus 12:48..."But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it."

this verse indicates that anyone could join the israelite community and gain all of the 'native born' rights of an israelite...such as the right to celebrate the israelite feasts...by becoming circumcised...that is by entering into the covenant between God and israel...

we are familiar with God's prohibition against israelites intermarrying with people from the surrounding nations...

deuteronomy 23:3-4..."No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the Lord; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the Lord, because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you."

similarly there was a prohibition against israelites marrying the people who were already living in the land before their arrival...

deuteronomy 7:3-4..."Furthermore, you shall not intermarry with them; you shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor shall you take their daughters for your sons."

however we know of cases where israelites -did- intermarry with moabites and canaanites...and in fact there are moabite and canaanite women in the lineage of the messiah...namely...

ruth 4:13..."So Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife, and he went in to her. And the Lord enabled her to conceive, and she gave birth to a son."
matthew 1:5..."Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse."

so why were these two women exceptions to the rule against intermarriage with gentiles? the answer is in these passages...

joshua 2:11..."When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the Lord your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath."
ruth 1:16-17..."But Ruth said, 'Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. Thus may the Lord do to me, and worse, if anything but death parts you and me.'"

especially compare rahab's confession of faith with the words of moses to the israelites...

deuteronomy 4:39..."Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other."

so a gentile could become part of the israelite community and enter into the covenant through faith in the God of israel...

conversely it was possible for an ethnic israelite to be -excluded- from the israelite community and from the covenant for acts demonstrating -unfaithfulness- to the God of israel...for example...

genesis 17:14..."But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."
leviticus 18:29..."For whoever does any of these abominations, those persons who do so shall be cut off from among their people."

the apparent fact that comes out of scripture is that israel was never an -ethnic- community at all...nobody was excluded from israel merely on the basis of gentile ethnicity...and likewise nobody was entitled to inclusion in israel solely because of abrahamic ancestry...

instead israel even in the old testament was a -faith- community...a community made up of everyone...whether abrahamic or gentile...who put their faith in the God of israel and chose to bind themselves in covenant to israel's God...

the new testament emphasizes this truth even more strongly...for instance...

ephesians 2:19-22..."So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."

so the church did not 'replace' israel...instead God's israel and God's church are the -same thing-...the church has always been israel and israel has always been church...

even the greek word for 'church'...ekklesia...means an assembly called out...compare that with references to 'the assembly' in the old testament scriptures referring to israel...such as deuteronomy 23:3-4 that i quoted above...

the organic unity of israel and the church is a direct implication of this verse...

ephesians 4:4-5..."There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

if there is only one body and one faith...then israel and the church cannot be two separate bodies treated differently by God as in dispensationalism...nor can they be two separate bodies such that one replaces the other in God's plan as in the -real- replacement theology that actually is taught by some...

israel and the church have always been one faith community...always encompassing both genetic descendants of abraham and also gentiles in unity of faith in God and christ...and they are the sole 'people' with whom God's plan of salvation is concerned...

so the biblical truth is not 'dispensational' theology or 'replacement' theology...the biblical truth is -unity- theology!

RachelBibleStudent · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

here is one more scripture passage that clearly demonstrates what i am saying...it comes just a little bit before one of the verses i quoted in my previous post but i forgot to include it...

ephesians 2:11-16..."Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called 'Uncircumcision' by the so-called 'Circumcision,' which is performed in the flesh by human hands—remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."

crossnote · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

1. Israel is a nation and was treated as such...Church is an assembly made up of many nations.
2. Israel started with Abraham...Church at Pentecost
3. The 144000 are from specific tribes of Israel...Church has no such thing in the trib.
4. No Scriptures or oracles came from the Gentile sector of Israel or the Church only from the lineage of Jacob..,

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Hoffco · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

To RachelBible Student, The Church has never been Israel and Israel has never been the same as the Church. The Israel of God is the Church. The nation of Israel has never been the same as the Church. The Church was within the nation of Israel in the old Testament, that is, after the nation was formed; But before the nation was a Nation , The Church of Jesus Christ was Adam and Eve and Abel and all the elect from them on in all of history, to the present. The Church did not begin at Pentecost. A Gentile could become a member of the nation of Israel, But, unless God saved him, He would not be a member of God's Church. In the New Testament God took all the Jewishness of the Church of God away for ever. Now the externals have nothing to do with membership in the Church of God. The Church has always been the invisible universal body of Christ, with a visible body of fellowship on earth. God is ordering all things in the world to day and His main objective is to punish Israel for their sin of rejecting Jesus their Messiah and to cut off the Gentiles and to save a host of Jews at Jesus' return. Then to give Isreal a glorious1,000 yrs, of rule over the world in Jesus kingdom, centered in Jerusalem. Love to all, Hoffco

Ukorin · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

crossnote said:

1. Israel is a nation and was treated as such...Church is an assembly made up of many nations.
2. Israel started with Abraham...Church at Pentecost
3. The 144000 are from specific tribes of Israel...Church has no such thing in the trib.
4. No Scriptures or oracles came from the Gentile sector of Israel or the Church only from the lineage of Jacob..,

Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 9:3-4 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Wasn't Luke a Gentile? He wrote a lot of Scripture.

Linda70 · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

Ukorin said:

Way of Life Encyclopedia
LUKE

(luminous). Writer of the Gospel of Luke and of the book of Acts; companion of Paul. "Luke, to whom this Gospel has been uniformly attributed from the earliest ages of the Christian church, is generally allowed to have been `the beloved physician' mentioned by Paul (Colossians 4:14) and as he was the companion of that Apostle, in all his labors and sufferings, for many years (Acts 16:12; 20:1-6; 27:1-2; 28:13-16; 2 Timothy 4:11; Philemon 1:25), and wrote `the Acts of the Apostles,' which concludes with a brief account of St. Paul's imprisonment at Rome, we may be assured that he had the Apostle's sanction to what he did; and probably this Gospel was written some time before that event, about A.D. 63 or 64, as is generally supposed. He would appear, from Colossians 4:10-11, and his intimate acquaintance with the Greek language, as well as from his Greek name (Lucas), to have been of Gentile extraction; and according to Eusebius and others, he was a native of Antioch. From the Hebraisms occurring in his writings, and especially from his accurate knowledge of the Jewish rites, ceremonies, and customs, it is highly probable that he was a Jewish proselyte, and afterwards converted to Christianity. Though he may not have been, as some have affirmed, one of the seventy disciples, and an eye-witness of our Savior's miracles, yet his intercourse with the Apostles, and those who were eye-witnesses of the works and ear-witnesses of the words of Christ, renders him an unexceptionable witness, if considered merely as an historian; and the early and unanimous reception of his Gospel as divinely inspired is sufficient to satisfy every reasonable person" (Torrey, R.A., ed. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge. 27th ed. Westwood: Fleming H. Revell Company, nd.). The Scriptures were given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit (John 14:25-26; 16:11-14; 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Linda70 · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

[video=youtube;kG8K__soNvQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG8K__soNvQ[/video]

The Seven Reasons To Support Israel: Joyce Kaufman

PennEd · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

I think some of my Beloved Christian brothers and sisters sometimes forget that Jesus CONTINUES to be Jewish, but has allowed us gentiles to be grafted in.

2Thewaters · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

1still_waters said:

Those who follow JEsus and separate from sin and repent and follow the Bible

2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Cor 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Cor 7:2 Receive us;

2Thewaters · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

1still_waters said:

Those who follow JEsus and separate from sin and repent and follow the Bible

2 Cor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Cor 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
2 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Cor 7:2 Receive us;

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

those who SEPARATE from their old man and live a new life of purity in Jesus blood have the promises and are given power to continue rightously

2 Pet 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

jahsoul · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

PennEd said:

Might need to reread that chapter. Christians aren't grafted into anything Jewish. Matter of fact, Paul didn't even mention anything regarding Jews or being Jewish. The whole chapter was spoken about the Children of Israel. Note, all Israelites were not Jews...

crossnote · Jul 30, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

jahsoul said:

Romans 11:1 So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul called himself a jew...

Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Often the Scripture makes a general distinction, either jew or gentile, that is done in Rom 9-11...

Romans 10:12, 21 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Thus in Rom 11 Israel and Jew are used synonomously.

vic1980 · Jul 31, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

RachelBibleStudent said:

Yes unity amen completly agree

Ephesians 2

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

God Bless

JaumeJ · Jul 31, 2014

Re: Who gets the promises?: Jews Church? : "Replacement theology": Other thoughts

The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who is hung on a tree!"
Gal 3:14
This happened in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the gentiles through the Messiah Jesus, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Keep in mind the promise to Abraham refers to Messiah as the Gate of Abraham's descendants' enemies. Reason reveals the children of Israel are inside the Gate awaiting the Gentiles to come in. I speak of believing peoples, for there are those who say they are, and they are not rather they are a synagogue of Satan.

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