A Biblical treatment of the oneness doctrine.

[watchmen]

Perhaps now you can return to the first post and try to explain those verses listed there in light of your oneness doctrine. How do you answer for those verses.

How do you explain the use of echad instead of yachim in the Schema?



T

There are not scriptures given in the O.P. however I have explained what I believe and given biblical reason for it over and over again

 

[DeeperStill]

Reference only:

"Hear oh Israel the Lord your God, the Lord is one" Deuteronomy 6:4

The original Hebrew reads


"SCHEMA YISREAL ADONI ELUHENU ADONI ESCHAD"


In Hebrew there are two words for one


YACHID - Strongs #3173 which means one in the singular numerical, as in Genesis 21, "take your one and only Son"

ESCHAD - Strongs #259 a compound unity as in Genesis 2, "the man and woman became one flesh", which allows for the existance of more than one entity to exist within the unity
__________________________________________________________________

 

[DeeperStill]

There are not scriptures given in the O.P. however I have explained what I believe and given biblical reason for it over and over again

Who's leg you trying to pull?

You cannot actually tell me you do not see any scriptures listed in the original post.

Here, let me help you out.

1.) Jesus is His own Father ( Acts 13:33 )

2.) Jesus begat Himself (John 3:16 )

3.) Jesus prayed to Himself and thanked Himself for giving the answer ( John 11:41).

4.) Jesus had to go away in order to send Himself back (John 16:7).

5.) Jesus promised those who were with Him on earth that as His own Father in heaven He would give Himself under a different name to them ( Luke 11:13 ).

6.) That Jesus said He was greater than Himself ( John )

7.) That Jesus as His own Father loved Himself ( John :17)

8.) That Jesus gave Himself a commandment which He obeyed ( John 10:18).

9.) That Jesus was the way to Himself ( John 14:6 ).

10.) That Jesus anointed Himself with Himself and accompanied Himself on earth ( Acts 10:38 )

11.) That in the same breath, Jesus said " blasphemy against Him would be forgiven and not forgiven." ( Luke 12:10)

12.) That His will disagreed with itself in the Garden of Gethsemane until He submitted His will on earth to His will in heaven and this struggle between His two wills caused Him to sweat drops of blood just as the struggle to conceive of such a situation may cause the believer to do likewise. ( Luke 22:42 )

13.) That Jesus prayed to Himself to forgive those who crucified Him (Luke 23:34)

14.) That Jesus forsook Himself on Calvary's cross. ( Matthew 27:46 ).

15.) That when Jesus died upon the cross He committed His own spirit unto His own hands ( Luke 23:46 )

16.) That when Jesus left this earth He went to meet Himself. ( John 16:28 )

17.) That Jesus then sat down at His own right hand ( Mark 16:19; Mark 14:62; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; and 1 Peter 3:22)

18.) That Jesus gave Himself all power in heaven and in earth ( Matthew 28:18)

19.) That Jesus is both judge and lawgiver pleading our cause with Himself. ( 1 John 2:1; 1 Tim 2:5; Heb 8:6; 12:24)

20.) That Jesus required His own death on the cross to satisfy Himself and reconcile a lost world to Himself by working in Himself ( 2 Cor 5:18,19 )

* see scriptures listed in Red, one in blue

 

[watchmen]

Reference only:

"Hear oh Israel the Lord your God, the Lord is one" Deuteronomy 6:4

The original Hebrew reads


"SCHEMA YISREAL ADONI ELUHENU ADONI ESCHAD"


In Hebrew there are two words for one


YACHID - Strongs #3173 which means one in the singular numerical, as in Genesis 21, "take your one and only Son"

ESCHAD - Strongs #259 a compound unity as in Genesis 2, "the man and woman became one flesh", which allows for the existance of more than one entity to exist within the unity
__________________________________________________________________

So like a bushel of apples is just one bushel or like my family of four is just one family, is that what your saying?

 

[DeeperStill]

I see you chose to ignore my request to return to the scriptures in the original post. When you are ready to do that, I will return to see your post.

T

 

[watchmen]

I see you chose to ignore my request to return to the scriptures in the original post. When you are ready to do that, I will return to see your post.

T

You want me to explain 20 different scripture to you? You know what they say and you know what you think that teach. I could care less if you respond to my post or not. You cannot biblically dispute the 4 points I made explaining what Oneness believers believe anyway, so anything you would say would be pointless and mute.

Be blessed deeper

 

[stillearning]

By R.B. Ring
*********

In these last days we rally to uphold the Word of God which will stand forever ( Isaiah 40:8 ) as the only sure foundation for faith, calling upon Christians everywhere to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 3 ).

One of the most rapidly spreading errors of our day is the teaching that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do not exist ; that Jesus alone is all three of the personalities of the Godhead. This not only dishonors the Father whom Jesus says sent Him ( John 4:34; 9:4; 11:42; 17:3; and 1 John 4:9), but the Holy Spirit ( John 14:16,17 ). We are expressly warned to be careful of how we speak of the Holy Spirit ( Luke 12:10).

Those who believe that Jesus alone is God must confess that according to Scripture they believe the following:

1.) Jesus is His own Father ( Acts 13:33 )

2.) Jesus begat Himself (John 3:16 )

3.) Jesus prayed to Himself and thanked Himself for giving the answer ( John 11:41).

4.) Jesus had to go away in order to send Himself back (John 16:7).

5.) Jesus promised those who were with Him on earth that as His own Father in heaven He would give Himself under a different name to them ( Luke 11:13 ).

6.) That Jesus said He was greater than Himself ( John )

7.) That Jesus as His own Father loved Himself ( John :17)

8.) That Jesus gave Himself a commandment which He obeyed ( John 10:18).

9.) That Jesus was the way to Himself ( John 14:6 ).

10.) That Jesus anointed Himself with Himself and accompanied Himself on earth ( Acts 10:38 )

11.) That in the same breath, Jesus said " blasphemy against Him would be forgiven and not forgiven." ( Luke 12:10)

12.) That His will disagreed with itself in the Garden of Gethsemane until He submitted His will on earth to His will in heaven and this struggle between His two wills caused Him to sweat drops of blood just as the struggle to conceive of such a situation may cause the believer to do likewise. ( Luke 22:42 )

13.) That Jesus prayed to Himself to forgive those who crucified Him (Luke 23:34)

14.) That Jesus forsook Himself on Calvary's cross. ( Matthew 27:46 ).

15.) That when Jesus died upon the cross He committed His own spirit unto His own hands ( Luke 23:46 )

16.) That when Jesus left this earth He went to meet Himself. ( John 16:28 )

17.) That Jesus then sat down at His own right hand ( Mark 16:19; Mark 14:62; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; and 1 Peter 3:22)

18.) That Jesus gave Himself all power in heaven and in earth ( Matthew 28:18)

19.) That Jesus is both judge and lawgiver pleading our cause with Himself. ( 1 John 2:1; 1 Tim 2:5; Heb 8:6; 12:24)

20.) That Jesus required His own death on the cross to satisfy Himself and reconcile a lost world to Himself by working in Himself ( 2 Cor 5:18,19 )

The above are only a very few of the many difficulties resulting from belief in the oneness doctrine. The utter folly of this teaching and the resultant confusion will be apparent if you will read

Jesus Himself declared that He knew not the hour of His return to earth, that neither the angels in heaven know it, but the Father only. If Jesus were both the Father and the Son, He knew the hour of His own return and He knew not the hour of His return.( This is ludicrous. ( emphasis mine - DeeperStill)

Jesus Himself declared that it was not His perogative to give power to sit on His right hand and His left hand, that these places would be given to whomever they were prepared for by His Father.

If we conceive of Jesus as being both the Father and the Son as this form of Unitarianism teaches, then we must understand that He both had and did not have the power to designate who should receive the seats of honor in glory. If this statement was made of one and the same person, then a falsehood is involved since He said it was not His to give ( Mark 10:40)

The first Christian martyr, Stephen, saw heaven opened and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Was Stephen seeing double? Was Jesus standing with Himself? Take note here that Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit and saw both God the Father and God the Son. Right there at Stephens death, we see the trinity in function. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How could Stephen be filled with the Holy Spirit and still see God the Father and God the Son standing in heaven if God the Spirit was In Stephen.. unless the true understanding is that God is Triune and not modalistic.

So, lets put off this false doctrine and stand firm upon the truth which we have been taught and avoid such disputes any longer. Our God is One. He is One "WHAT" , three "WHO's"

Fundamental Truth
The trinity of God is the fundamental fact of the faith which we have been shown from Genesis to Revelations and it cannot be denied. Those who come teaching a different truth have sadly, been mislead by this false doctrine. And we must pray for them that they will have their eyes open to the true biblical understanding of the Godhead. We should not forsake them because most likely they believe themselves to be believing the truth.

However, let me suggest that you really read about the oneness's beliefs. I believe you will see other misunderstandings they believe such as the doctrine of baptism.. and other things.

But You, stand on the truth that you have been taught and avoid contentious and divisive arguments . Do not be swayed and look for fruit of the Spirit, not gifts of the spirit because gifts can be counterfeit but fruit is Love....

T

Jesus is His own Father

13: The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. Acts 3:13

Here we see Jesus has a Father. Peter said his Father is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. All we have to do is find out who HE is. Then we will know who is the Father of Jesus.

Who IS the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob?

13: And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15: And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex. 3:13-15

The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob says he is I AM.

So we can see very plainly that the I AM is the Father of Jesus Christ.

Who is Jesus Christ HIMSELF?

57: Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8: 57-58

There it is. The Father of Jesus is I AM. Jesus is I AM.

Jesus is BOTH the Father and the Son.

Peter said The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob IS the Father of Jesus.

Yet Jesus IS the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

According to the doctrine of Peter Jesus is his own father.

 

[stillearning]

By R.B. Ring
*********

In these last days we rally to uphold the Word of God which will stand forever ( Isaiah 40:8 ) as the only sure foundation for faith, calling upon Christians everywhere to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints ( Jude 3 ).

One of the most rapidly spreading errors of our day is the teaching that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit do not exist ; that Jesus alone is all three of the personalities of the Godhead. This not only dishonors the Father whom Jesus says sent Him ( John 4:34; 9:4; 11:42; 17:3; and 1 John 4:9), but the Holy Spirit ( John 14:16,17 ). We are expressly warned to be careful of how we speak of the Holy Spirit ( Luke 12:10).

Those who believe that Jesus alone is God must confess that according to Scripture they believe the following:

1.) Jesus is His own Father ( Acts 13:33 )

2.) Jesus begat Himself (John 3:16 )

3.) Jesus prayed to Himself and thanked Himself for giving the answer ( John 11:41).

4.) Jesus had to go away in order to send Himself back (John 16:7).

5.) Jesus promised those who were with Him on earth that as His own Father in heaven He would give Himself under a different name to them ( Luke 11:13 ).

6.) That Jesus said He was greater than Himself ( John )

7.) That Jesus as His own Father loved Himself ( John :17)

8.) That Jesus gave Himself a commandment which He obeyed ( John 10:18).

9.) That Jesus was the way to Himself ( John 14:6 ).

10.) That Jesus anointed Himself with Himself and accompanied Himself on earth ( Acts 10:38 )

11.) That in the same breath, Jesus said " blasphemy against Him would be forgiven and not forgiven." ( Luke 12:10)

12.) That His will disagreed with itself in the Garden of Gethsemane until He submitted His will on earth to His will in heaven and this struggle between His two wills caused Him to sweat drops of blood just as the struggle to conceive of such a situation may cause the believer to do likewise. ( Luke 22:42 )

13.) That Jesus prayed to Himself to forgive those who crucified Him (Luke 23:34)

14.) That Jesus forsook Himself on Calvary's cross. ( Matthew 27:46 ).

15.) That when Jesus died upon the cross He committed His own spirit unto His own hands ( Luke 23:46 )

16.) That when Jesus left this earth He went to meet Himself. ( John 16:28 )

17.) That Jesus then sat down at His own right hand ( Mark 16:19; Mark 14:62; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; and 1 Peter 3:22)

18.) That Jesus gave Himself all power in heaven and in earth ( Matthew 28:18)

19.) That Jesus is both judge and lawgiver pleading our cause with Himself. ( 1 John 2:1; 1 Tim 2:5; Heb 8:6; 12:24)

20.) That Jesus required His own death on the cross to satisfy Himself and reconcile a lost world to Himself by working in Himself ( 2 Cor 5:18,19 )

The above are only a very few of the many difficulties resulting from belief in the oneness doctrine. The utter folly of this teaching and the resultant confusion will be apparent if you will read

Jesus Himself declared that He knew not the hour of His return to earth, that neither the angels in heaven know it, but the Father only. If Jesus were both the Father and the Son, He knew the hour of His own return and He knew not the hour of His return.( This is ludicrous. ( emphasis mine - DeeperStill)

Jesus Himself declared that it was not His perogative to give power to sit on His right hand and His left hand, that these places would be given to whomever they were prepared for by His Father.

If we conceive of Jesus as being both the Father and the Son as this form of Unitarianism teaches, then we must understand that He both had and did not have the power to designate who should receive the seats of honor in glory. If this statement was made of one and the same person, then a falsehood is involved since He said it was not His to give ( Mark 10:40)

The first Christian martyr, Stephen, saw heaven opened and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Was Stephen seeing double? Was Jesus standing with Himself? Take note here that Stephen was filled with the Holy Spirit and saw both God the Father and God the Son. Right there at Stephens death, we see the trinity in function. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. How could Stephen be filled with the Holy Spirit and still see God the Father and God the Son standing in heaven if God the Spirit was In Stephen.. unless the true understanding is that God is Triune and not modalistic.

So, lets put off this false doctrine and stand firm upon the truth which we have been taught and avoid such disputes any longer. Our God is One. He is One "WHAT" , three "WHO's"

Fundamental Truth
The trinity of God is the fundamental fact of the faith which we have been shown from Genesis to Revelations and it cannot be denied. Those who come teaching a different truth have sadly, been mislead by this false doctrine. And we must pray for them that they will have their eyes open to the true biblical understanding of the Godhead. We should not forsake them because most likely they believe themselves to be believing the truth.

However, let me suggest that you really read about the oneness's beliefs. I believe you will see other misunderstandings they believe such as the doctrine of baptism.. and other things.

But You, stand on the truth that you have been taught and avoid contentious and divisive arguments . Do not be swayed and look for fruit of the Spirit, not gifts of the spirit because gifts can be counterfeit but fruit is Love....

T

Our Father who is God is our Holy Spirit did begat Himself:
Mat 1:18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

[stillearning]

With all due respect and with the love of God there God Almighty has an answer to every one of these questions by R.B. Ring. I believe R.B. Ring is not looking at this through spiritual eyes.

 

[jasperjedi]

Although I consider myself a trinitarian, I think it is most important to say that if you believe in Jesus as the Son of God, that He came to save us from our sins, isn't aht the most important doctrine, the one that makes us christian, It's about God's love for us, no matter how he is comprised of his being(s) He loves us, and died for our sins. I hope what I've stated make sense lol.

 

[watchmen]

Although I consider myself a trinitarian, I think it is most important to say that if you believe in Jesus as the Son of God, that He came to save us from our sins, isn't aht the most important doctrine, the one that makes us christian, It's about God's love for us, no matter how he is comprised of his being(s) He loves us, and died for our sins. I hope what I've stated make sense lol.

Yes I agree even though I am an Oneness believer, what is important is that we know Jesus is God incarnate as the Son, that He died for our sins, and rose again. That is what makes us Christians.

 

[stillearning]

Yes I agree as well. I believe it is imortant to know who our eternal Father is and what He did for us. It is amazing the Our Father our Holy Spirit made a fleshly body "Son of God" like yours and mine, felt what we feel, and expirienced something that i am sure we cannot even fathom by taking the punishment from man whom He Created and He knew this was going to happen, He felt every bruise, and cut. He broe our sins, redeemed us from our transgressions, made a way that we can live without sin. our Fathers gift to us is SALVATION and that Gift has a Name Jesus He is not just the Son of God but He is our Father Eternaly and forever, Praise Him in all of His fullness.
God bless AGAPE

 

[Jezreel]

The godhead dwells in Jesus Christ, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit after the tradition of men and rudiments of the world and not after Christ, for in HIM DWELLS ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY AND HE IS THE HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER. (Collosians 2:38, 39) The doctrine of trinity, a man made formula that devises to try to explain the diety of Christ, puts Jesus in the Godhead, instead of the Godhead in Jesus Christ and brings confusion of understanding. It is afundamental doctrine from the Roman Catholic Church. The Father is a spirit, no man has seen him at any time. Jesus is a person, the son of God whom the fullness of the Godhead dwells in, and, the Holy spirit is a spirit, not a person, making the Godhead mannifest in three ways. Just as man cannot grasp the concept in our minds of the greatness of what eternity is like because we dwell in time, I don't think any of us have yet a fullness of the revelation of the Godhead. If I am wrong about anything or believe in any way that is wrong, I always pray that God would mould my mind and heart and spirit to be willing to believe the way he wants me to believe, even if I am considered a heretic for it. I used to believe that speaking intongues was evidence of the baptism of the holy spirit, I do not believe that way anymore. We have all been "churched" and because of that, it has hindered the body of Christ. What is happening in our economy, God is going to use it to remove hirelings and false sheperds who do it for a paycheck. Strangers shall stand and feed the flock of God. Judgement start first at the house of God and at us. There will be judgement and destruction upon the system of organized religeon that glorifies man rather than God. His people are scattered throughout Babylon and Christ said, "come out of her my people". None of us know it all. I pray that God would humble my heart everday and give me a revelation of his truths and count all other things as dung.

 

[DeeperStill]

2 John.

7)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

9)

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the *Doctrine of Christ , does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has *BOTH the Father and the Son.

10) I anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, Do Not Receive him into your house nor greet him; 11) for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^

* BOTH = str #2532 = Kai " Cumulative force, as in this and also that.
Word: cumulative
Definitions: Adjective: Increasing by successive addition (Example: "The benefits are cumulative")

This is not "first one and after that, then the other, It is In addition to the Father, The Son Also, "Both"

 

[watchmen]

Well you got at least two things right in your post Jezreel.
#1 All the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Christ Jesus for He was and is th eFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.
#2 The Trinity is a man made system devised by those who would become the Roman catholic church, and not the true teaching of scripture.

 

[Young_Gideon]

2 John.

7)

For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

9)

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the *Doctrine of Christ , does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has *BOTH the Father and the Son.

10) I anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, Do Not Receive him into your house nor greet him; 11) for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^

* BOTH = str #2532 = Kai " Cumulative force, as in this and also that.
Word: cumulative
Definitions: Adjective: Increasing by successive addition (Example: "The benefits are cumulative")

This is not "first one and after that, then the other, It is In addition to the Father, The Son Also, "Both"

Wow, those are definitely great verses to post. I don't see how any Bible believing Christian could disagree with that.

 

[watchmen]

Wow, those are definitely great verses to post. I don't see how any Bible believing Christian could disagree with that.

The thing is Oneness believers do not disagree with those verses, we simply understand them more perfectly.

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcjW3DSbMeI

Who is Jesus Christ of Nazereth?

He is God the Great Father become flesh for the salvation of mankind.

 

[Young_Gideon]

The thing is Oneness believers do not disagree with those verses, we simply understand them more perfectly.

You understand "them" more perftectly than who? I was saying Bible believing Christians. But if you are a Oneness believer and you happen to believe the Bible, well... Now I am just wondering how you interpret those verses?

 

[watchmen]

You understand "them" more perftectly than who? I was saying Bible believing Christians. But if you are a Oneness believer and you happen to believe the Bible, well... Now I am just wondering how you interpret those verses?

I got ya, Oneness understand those verse more perfectly than trinitarians. But you are correct all bible believing Christian should believe those verses, and every verse of scripture for that matter.