A Biblical treatment of the oneness doctrine.

Jezreel · Sep 18, 2009

Just like I am not a democrat or republican, my stance on the Godhead is neither trinitarian or oneness as there are contradictions in both doctrines because man likes to organize the scriptures to back up both doctrines. We know it says, "line upon line and precept upon precept". I have just taken on the simplicity just having faith in the belief that God is mannifest in three ways and that he is the only true and living God, all power is given to the son over heaven and earth and he has the keys of death and of hell. My goodness!! Here is is saying that the devil is not the ruler of hell!! The devil being a ruler of hell is another misconception many people have. Jesus has the keys of death and of hell.

Jezreel · Sep 19, 2009

I forgot to add that all we need to do is believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that he died for our sins and was ressurrected. That gets us saved, not having a big revelation of the Godhead. Sometimes we strain at a gnat and swallow a camel Jesus said.

DeeperStill · Sep 19, 2009

watchmen said:

Only when we see Jesus face to face, will any of us understand perfectly. As a person who assumes to understand things "more perfectly", I'm surprised you missed that one.

******

T

MahogonySnail · Sep 19, 2009

Jezreel I tend to disagree.. the nature of the God-head is fundamentally important to the Christian faith just as is the Creation account of Genesis.. remove the foundations and the rest begins to crumble. Christianity has a long history and although we are in the last days it's not the time to be throwing out key doctrines of the faith and accepting an "anything goes as long as you believe in Jesus". Hey, everyone believes in Jesus...mormons, JW's, Christadelphians, David Koresh's group, world wide church of god's etc..

The problem I have with the oneness and similar doctrines is how they confuse the distinction between members of the God-head, and basically says that the Father died on the cross for our sins, instead of the Son. It's as if God the Father suicides himself on the cross, rather than sending His Son as reflected in the story of Abraham and Isaac.

So I disagree with the idea that it is straining gnats and swallowing camels. That would be in reference to the Pharisees hypcorisy in keeping small matters of the law, but neglecting the bigger ones. The doctrine of the nature of the God head is a matter of sound versus false doctrine.

Now I used to go to a church which was a type of modalist and all of these churches that have a different view , and reject the Trinity , always, have other doctrines or practices which are contrary to accepted Christianity. The spirit of error doesn't just work on one level but on many.

watchmen · Sep 19, 2009

I certainly pray God does not judge you with the standard you place on others to perfectly understand the Godhead, if so you are in big trouble. The doctrine of the Trinity is incorrect plain and simple.

MahogonySnail · Sep 19, 2009

Watchmen this "standard" you speak of is sound doctrine, a simple doctrine of the faith and has been for 1700 years. It's as fundamental as believing God is a man (not mother) and satan is a real evil spiritual being. I don't think God will be judging anyone by how they understood His nature.

Jezreel · Sep 20, 2009

Because persecution only purfied and empowered the body of Christ, Satan devised and created the Roman Catholic Church that has been pretty successful destroying the truth that empowers the true Church, his people. All the other denominations are the daughters of the great whore because they all still hold onto traditions and doctrine from her. Christ's body is scattered throughout all of them and these are wonderful times hearing and seeing his people break free from the bondage of religeon much like Jesus did when he walked the earth, he come to set the people free of not only their sins, but, the false religeous leadership who were oppressing the people. When Jesus taught, "call no man father for you have one father in heaven and call no man teacher because you are all bretheran in HIM, so what does the church fathers do?! They gave men ordained by man, titles such as Father!! They do exactly the opposite of what Christ told them to not do! I am constantly amazed of how simple it is for Satan to use false religeon to deceive multitudes but history has shown over and over, people do not want to speak to God on their own and they like to be told what to do because they are deceived in thinking that they will not be accountable to God, only the leadership will be. The children of Israel were like that. They told Moses that they did not want to speak to God even though all of them were given the opportunity to, they wanted Moses to speak to God and come back and tell them because they were all too "afraid" to speak to God. I am beginning to see that quite possible, that fear was the wrong kind of fear. They were afraid that they would have to be accountable and they wanted to blame Moses etc if mistakes or hardships come up. It made them be more "comfortable". God is bringing people out of their comfort zones right now by allowing pedofilia and other horrible sins in church leadership to be exposed to show what kind of seed it come from. The first organized church made by man come from the seed of Satan and I am not afraid to say and speak the truth about that. Just as God calls her a great Whore, and they are in spiritual sin also with spiritual fornication and adultery, churches that are birthed from the wicked one also have congregations where fornication and adultery are very much a practice and covered up. The spiritual comes first so you can lift up her skirts and see what is going on behind the scenes. Because of what Satan brought in, God is bringing good out of it because his people will seek him in spirit and in truth. This false mixture has tainted our beliefs and thinking and I too do not believe that God is going to judge a person because we don't understand something. To him that knows not to do good and does not do it shall receive few stripes but he that knows to do good and does not do it, shall receive many stripes. Those who willingly deny the truth even though they know the truth, if they do not do what God wants them to do, testify of the truth just to keep a position in the church or to receive a paycheck, they are in deep trouble. If there are church leaders that willingly teach things that they know to be wrong just for a paycheck, the judgement will be much greater. There is a place in hell with the fallen angels. We have to continually pray that God would continue to separate the just from the wicked. There is a separation going on now in the world to see what side we are on. The tares shall FIRST be gathered into bundles to be burned, then, the wheat will be gathered into the barn.

watchmen · Sep 20, 2009

Jezreel said:

This is absolutely true. Cathlicism is the great whore and the protestant denomination that still hold to their doctrines and traditions are the daughters of the whore. The doctrine of the Trinity is one of those doctrines created by the whore (cathoicism) So mahogony if you want to be a daughter of the whore (and yes i remember you are a man) then keep on worshiping your false doctrine, simply because it is tradition. It is a false tradition.

Jezreel · Sep 20, 2009

Mahogany said: The problem I have with the oneness and similar doctrines is how they confuse the distinction between members of the God-head, and basically says that the Father died on the cross for our sins, instead of the Son. It's as if God the Father suicides himself on the cross, rather than sending His Son as reflected in the story of Abraham and Isaac.

We do not believe that the father died on the cross. God cannot die. The son of man died. I think that informers on radio stations like the answer man show give very innacurrate descriptions of what the oneness doctrines are as well as those who teach the trinity, they are so misinformed on what we believe. Where did the heck did they get the idea that we believe that the Father died on the cross!!

Definition_Christ · Sep 20, 2009

Watchmen

Well that is a pretty bold statement, I was wondering if maybe you could prove the Trinity *false* with Scripture? Just to clarify by Scripture I mean, the Word of God; The Holy Bible. Not some alternative doctrine but simply just Sola Scriptura. I am curious to see what you have, because to prove the trinity as a "false tradition" or false doctrine you'd need to deny quite a LOT of Scripture like Jesus praying to the Father, Jesus' baptism etc etc, and you'd probably have to add in a false doctrine to clarify that Jesus wasn't really praying to God but instead Himself or something in that area. That is not Scriptural at all. By Jesus saying the Father and I are one is saying they are in perfect unity. The body of Christ is one, right? That doesn't mean we are all ONE person but ONE being we are many persons that make up the body of Christ. When I see the word 'ONE' in Scripture I have to understand what it truthfully means. For instance when I see Deu 6:4 which says Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad. Does echad which means one mean; in perfect unity? Or One being? or One person? I would just like to see what you have to say as far as proving the Trinity false with Scripture and not an alternative doctrine, rather keep it Biblical and if you could prove that false. I have no problem admitting I am wrong and would love to expand my definition on who God is. To say it's not important to know who God is, is just absurd because that is my purpose in life to get to know God and learn more about Him everyday and how I can glorify Him in any given situation. Well please get back to me Watchmen and I love the fact you hunger and thirst for righteousness and you are always interested in a Biblical discussion God bless you, and God bless you all.

Jezreel · Sep 20, 2009

The word says in Timmothy, Great is the mystery of Godliness forGod was mannifest in the flesh, justified in the spirit, preached unto the gentiles, seen of the angels and received unto glory. That is a scripture. There is no scripture that says, "God is three persons that is co equal and co eternal and so on. That is the controversy. It is a formula man made up. Jesus was the son of man and he prayed to the father. He also did not know the day of the coming of the Lord he said not even the angels in heaven know the day or the hour, not even the son of man. Not only was he the son of God, he is the son of man, the human part of him that is a person. God is a spirit and no man has seen him at any time.

Definition_Christ · Sep 20, 2009

Jezreel said:

The problem I have with your answer is, honestly it's inaccurate for you to say that there is not Scripture that says God is co-equal co-eternal and so on, I assume you are speaking of Jesus? Correct me if I am wrong.If you are saying that which I believe you are then it is completely false. You are correct however when you say Jesus was praying to the Father, and yes Jesus did not know the day or the hour whilst He was on Earth. I again agree that no man has seen God at any time EXCEPT THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. Which is Jesus... You forgot to add that part of the Scripture which is very important especially on this topic. Now what I was talking about before is John 1:1 which states that the Word is co-eternal right? I hope you agree that the Word is Jesus. Okay moving on now as far as co-equal..

Philippians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus
who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men

Now I don't know how you can get away with saying that if you believe Jesus is not God the Father. Jesus is co-equal with the Father.. I mean how can you say there are no Scriptures that say this when there clearly are. And John 1:1 proves Jesus is co-eternal. If you believe that the Holy Spirit is God than that is 3 again. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Acts 5: 3-4
But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Wow wow, did Peter just say the Holy Spirit is God?? Anyway there are many Scriptures to prove that the Holy Spirit is God and many to prove Jesus is God, and without a doubt many to prove the Father is God. Now three persons.. Hmm let's see the Father is a person(not fleshly, don't be confuse person with human being), Jesus is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person. We can go to the ancient Hebrew text in the OT, the word for God is Elohim, and Elohim is plural.. Hmm go figure. I am monotheistic, I worship ONE God, when I worship Jesus I am worshiping the Father. Vice versa. You cannot separate God from God. In the same way you can't say Jesus is God and yet deny He is co-eternal and co-deity etc etc. Maybe Trinity isn't the correct word to use but I believe that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and they are in perfect tri-unity.

Just some Scriptures to answer to.

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one (1 John 5:7) THREE PERSONS ONE BEING.

Acts 7 54-56
When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.
But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, AND Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Holy Spirit, God AND Jesus..Looks like Stephen who had the Holy Spirit inside of Him saw the Father and the Son, sounds like 3 persons to me. (including the Holy Spirit).

I don't even want to post all the Scriptures in genesis that state "us, our" etc etc. I came to this thread looking for Scriptures that REFUTE the trinity, I am not here to defend it but looks like I am anyway. So Watchmen please get back to me on that last post I had thank you and Jezreel I hope that answers your post, or the parts we disagreed on.

MahogonySnail · Sep 20, 2009

We get the idea that the Father died on the cross, when you make such claims about the Son being the same as the Father. "The Son if the Father" you say. Well if the Son is the Father then the Father died on the cross.

You can't believe both that the Son died on the cross, and that the Son was the Father, without concluding that the Father died on the cross. To deny it would force you into a Trinitarian position which maintains separation between the Father and Son as distinct persons, and to which I would fully agree.

MahogonySnail · Sep 20, 2009

How dare you call anyone "a daughter of the whore". This "whore" that you call Catholicism , you have to thank for being a Christian today. What you say doesn't come from God and you better repent before it's too late, especially considering we both believe we can lose salvation.

watchmen · Sep 20, 2009

Definition_Christ said:

Of course I can , matter of fact I have about 10-20 times in the 5 or 6 threads we have had on the subject lately. Trinitarians do not care what scripture says about the Godhead, because it does not line up with their tradition. I might come back in a little while and give you some scripture. right now the game is on

MahogonySnail · Sep 20, 2009

The bible says:

1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God

Therefore anyone who says that the Father came in the flesh, is not of God, according to 1 Jn 4:3. That Christ came in the flesh is key to understanding that Christ existed with the Father before He was born.

watchmen · Sep 20, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

I thank catholicism for nothing but polluting the truth, and to be honest I not really that thankful that they did that.

watchmen · Sep 20, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

And which side of the argument denies Christ came in the flesh.

MahogonySnail · Sep 20, 2009

Watchmen suggest you and other Oneness proponents read:

http://www.kencollins.com/why-07.htm

The Church formulated the Nicene Creed before it selected certain apostolic writings, called them the New Testament, and declared them to be Holy Scripture. Another way of looking at it is that God chose the people who were bound by the Nicene Creed to affirm the contents of the New Testament, thereby endorsing the theology of the creed. The Nicene Creed is therefore a reliable test of our interpretation of the New Testament. If we are at variance with the Nicene Creed, we are in error. So whoever denies the Trinity must also deny the New Testament, and whoever upholds the New Testament as Holy Scripture must also affirm the Trinity.

In the beginning, the Church did not have a formal creed, nor did it have a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Then it formulated the Nicene Creed to express its doctrines and to serve as a test of orthodox teaching. So for a while there was a Church with the Nicene Creed but, even though it used the books of the New Testament as Holy Scripture, it had no official statement saying that they were. After the Church was bound by the Nicene Creed, it made a formal list of the books in the New Testament. Therefore, whoever attempts to reconstruct the ancient Church with an official list of New Testament books but without the Nicene Creed is reconstructing an imaginary church that never existed. This doesn’t mean their church is invalid, it just means that it isn’t a historic reconstruction, because in any part of Church history in which there was an official list of New Testament books, the Nicene Creed was the official expression of faith and the final test of orthodoxy.

MahogonySnail · Sep 20, 2009

Your arguments about the whore is the catholic church etc sound so rediculous considering the dates we're talking about are early years of Christianity and considering you base your views on the canon of scripture which is closely tied in with the Nicene creed which you reject. Can anyone say, "contradiction"?

A Biblical treatment of the oneness doctrine.

Jezreel

Guest

Jezreel

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Jezreel

Guest

Banned

Jezreel

Guest

Definition_Christ

Guest

Jezreel

Guest

Definition_Christ

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned