a Black Pope coming up

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Ugly

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does this site really allow trolls rampant like this?
Offensive posts need to be reported. Anyone can report a post. The mods don't have the time to scan through every single post as it goes up, all day. So they rely on us to police ourselves and if they deem the report justified they will take whatever action they feel is needed. So feel free to report her posts. That little triangle/exclamation point at the bottom of each post. Make to to select the post with the actual offensive comment and not just any random post of someones.
 
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The bible says no one should call themselves " Father," because there is only one Father and he is in Heaven.
Hi oOfallen.

Many Protestants claim that when Catholics address priests as "father," they are engaging in an unbiblical practice that Jesus forbade: "Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9).

To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word "father" in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word "father."

In fact, to forbid it would rob the address "Father" of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.
But in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.
For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).
Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: "I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21).

This type of fatherhood not only applies to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim), it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, "My father, my father!" to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

A Change with the New Testament?

Some Fundamentalists argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men "father" in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.
First, as we’ve seen, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of "father" in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests "father") must be wrong, as we shall see.

Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."
Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher." Even "Mister" and "Mistress" ("Mrs.") are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics for saying "father." But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

So What Did Jesus Mean?

Jesus criticized Jewish leaders who love "the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called ‘rabbi’ by men" (Matt. 23:6–7). His admonition here is a response to the Pharisees’ proud hearts and their grasping after marks of status and prestige.
He was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point) to show the scribes and Pharisees how sinful and proud they were for not looking humbly to God as the source of all authority and fatherhood and teaching, and instead setting themselves up as the ultimate authorities, father figures, and teachers.
Christ used hyperbole often, for example when he declared, "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell" (Matt. 5:29, cf. 18:9; Mark 9:47). Christ certainly did not intend this to be applied literally, for otherwise all Christians would be blind amputees! (cf. 1 John 1:8; 1 Tim. 1:15). We are all subject to "the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life" (1 John 2:16).
Since Jesus is demonstrably using hyperbole when he says not to call anyone our father—else we would not be able to refer to our earthly fathers as such—we must read his words carefully and with sensitivity to the presence of hyperbole if we wish to understand what he is saying.

Jesus is not forbidding us to call men "fathers" who actually are such—either literally or spiritually. (See below on the apostolic example of spiritual fatherhood.) To refer to such people as fathers is only to acknowledge the truth, and Jesus is not against that. He is warning people against inaccurately attributing fatherhood—or a particular kind or degree of fatherhood—to those who do not have it.

As the apostolic example shows, some individuals genuinely do have a spiritual fatherhood, meaning that they can be referred to as spiritual fathers. What must not be done is to confuse their form of spiritual paternity with that of God. Ultimately, God is our supreme protector, provider, and instructor. Correspondingly, it is wrong to view any individual other than God as having these roles.
Throughout the world, some people have been tempted to look upon religious leaders who are mere mortals as if they were an individual’s supreme source of spiritual instruction, nourishment, and protection. The tendency to turn mere men into "gurus" is worldwide.
This was also a temptation in the Jewish world of Jesus’ day, when famous rabbinical leaders, especially those who founded important schools, such as Hillel and Shammai, were highly exalted by their disciples. It is this elevation of an individual man—the formation of a "cult of personality" around him—of which Jesus is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role as master, father, or teacher.
He is not forbidding the perfunctory use of honorifics nor forbidding us to recognize that the person does have a role as a spiritual father and teacher. The example of his own apostles shows us that.

The Apostles Show the Way

The New Testament is filled with examples of and references to spiritual father-son and father-child relationships. Many people are not aware just how common these are, so it is worth quoting some of them here.
Paul regularly referred to Timothy as his child: "Therefore I sent to you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ" (1 Cor. 4:17); "To Timothy, my true child in the faith: grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (1 Tim. 1:2); "To Timothy, my beloved child: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord" (2 Tim. 1:2).

He also referred to Timothy as his son: "This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophetic utterances which pointed to you, that inspired by them you may wage the good warfare" (1 Tim 1:18); "You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:1); "But Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a father he has served with me in the gospel" (Phil. 2:22).

Paul also referred to other of his converts in this way: "To Titus, my true child in a common faith: grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior" (Titus 1:4); "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). None of these men were Paul’s literal, biological sons. Rather, Paul is emphasizing his spiritual fatherhood with them.



Spiritual Fatherhood

Perhaps the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul’s statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

Peter followed the same custom, referring to Mark as his son: "She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark" (1 Pet. 5:13). The apostles sometimes referred to entire churches under their care as their children. Paul writes, "Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you; for children ought not to lay up for their parents, but parents for their children" (2 Cor. 12:14); and, "My little children, with whom I am again in travail until Christ be formed in you!" (Gal. 4:19).

John said, "My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1); "No greater joy can I have than this, to hear that my children follow the truth" (3 John 4). In fact, John also addresses men in his congregations as "fathers" (1 John 2:13–14).

By referring to these people as their spiritual sons and spiritual children, Peter, Paul, and John imply their own roles as spiritual fathers. Since the Bible frequently speaks of this spiritual fatherhood, we Catholics acknowledge it and follow the custom of the apostles by calling priests "father." Failure to acknowledge this is a failure to recognize and honor a great gift God has bestowed on the Church: the spiritual fatherhood of the priesthood.
Catholics know that as members of a parish, they have been committed to a priest’s spiritual care, thus they have great filial affection for priests and call them "father." Priests, in turn, follow the apostles’ biblical example by referring to members of their flock as "my son" or "my child" (cf. Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).
All of these passages were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and they express the infallibly recorded truth that Christ’s ministers do have a role as spiritual fathers. Jesus is not against acknowledging that. It is he who gave these men their role as spiritual fathers, and it is his Holy Spirit who recorded this role for us in the pages of Scripture. To acknowledge spiritual fatherhood is to acknowledge the truth, and no amount of anti-Catholic grumbling will change that fact.

Peace
 
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SantoSubito

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The bible says no one should call themselves " Father," because there is only one Father and he is in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

Just as Paul was a father to the Corinthians, so are the Pope and clergy fathers to us today.

Vicar of Christ - the title has put Popes in the authority to speak on behalf of Christ; which is why the Catholic Church has been able to enforce whatever it's papacy dictates over the clear history of time.
Such is the nature of a hierarchical structure, but only when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, on matters of faith and morals.

An earthly representative of Christ - lol the only " representatives " of Christ were the disciples Jesus hand selected himself and entrusted with his truth. Not some mere men who somehow found a way to convince the world that Peter handed over his authority.
Apostolic succession has a long and well documented history. You should look into it.


Seriously - just do some basic Christian history. Even catholics I've spoken to talk about the corruption of certain Popes and how that specific pope wasn't really a holy person. No. Not at all.
A bad Pope doesn't negate the office, just like a bad president doesn't negate the office. Popes are men and can be led astray.

The Catochism is a clever way the church sugarcoats the fact that it thinks it knows the truth of God, when really they know about as much as anyone picking up the bible and reading it, and interpreting it themselves from the perspective of a mere mortal.
Catechism, it's the book that contains the definitive teachings of the Church, complete with exhaustive references to the Bible, the Early Church Fathers, and Encyclicals. I'd figure you would be glad that Catholics had such a document that is so heavily cross referenced to scripture.

Only God knows the truth of his works, and until Christ himself comes to present that truth, what mere man or mere church lead by men without God's divine guidance can speak so boldly?
You just answered your own question, the Church is ultimately guided and led by God, not men.

Then after they died - the devil came and sowed his seed amongst the righteous.
You think all these Christian denominations that say they have the " truth of God," are all correct?


I believe that one has God's truth, and I also believe in Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

What man would overstep the authority of God to set himself up as God besides a wicked spirit?

What's so obvious too is that the church can easily manipulate the people because it persuades the people to put their faith in a person than actually in God.


The Pope is not God, he is the Earthly head of the Church and the bishop of Rome, but he is not God.

Because if you hold to God, Catholocism and mainstream Christianity is really contradictive and hypocritical.
They aren't really. Generations upon generations of the faithful would agree with me on that to.

And sketchy. The Catholic church completely got rid of the 2nd commandment from the ten commandments, and it's the commandment they violate the most.
It's not eliminated, it's grouped in with the commandment against worshiping false gods. Don't know if you're aware but the Bible doesn't have a divinely inspired numbering for the commandments.


The priest commit unholy acts and molest children, being excused by the pope,
Priests commit these acts at a slightly lower rate than other Christian clergy, actually. The Pope has also routinely condemned the actions of the men that have committed these acts.

people are taught to confess their sins to sinners
James 5:16 "Confess your faults (sins) one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Words in parentheses are mine.

the saints and mary are prayed too when the bible says the only mediator to God is Christ and Christ only; not Jesus's physical mother nor his disciples.
Same verse applies: James 5:16 "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

We believe the Saints can pray for us, as they are still part of the Church.

It's so blatantly obvious how messed up the churches are, and there is literally know accurate biblical standing that defends the Pope's authority; if anything it speaks out against the Pope's position.
It seems you have set yourself as a Pope unto yourself. Well thats what it seems like if you read between the lines of the phrase "accurate Biblical standing", since that usually means "interpretations that I agree with".

On a side note - the very icon for your profile picture, a crusade shield, a red pagan cross from the blood of the slaughtered.
So apparently the color of the Cross makes it pagan? The red cross is meant to represent the blood of Christ.

Pax Christi.
 
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weakness

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​ This has been quit a discussion! A "black" pope being the anti-Christ, to the man of sin,a nation of "blacks", to an attack of catholic doctrine. What a ride.Oh then there is Nostradamus, and his prophesy. Before I got on here today ,I was just thinking whether I should sign in or not. The last few times I was on, the discussions seemed so " off the wall, dominated by untruth and pride, I was wondering what was the use.I thought it would take a book just to clear up the misinformation and the untruth of scriptural misinformation. But after seeing this I'll really have to think again. I ask myself, what is the point and sense of all this? How are some,maybe most, of our disscussions profitable and edifying ? Or if they can be on a forum like this? My own coments included. Somtimes I see something of value (in my opinion). Seems like I am learning patients and longsuffering ,mercy and acceptance of others but,almost never any thing doctrinal . It is like God is teaching me in spite of the disscussions.I guess that is good though.Praise the Lord , and God might be speaking to someones elses heart too. Well I was going to comment but this is all that came out. Glory to the only wise and true God and father of our Lord jesus Christ . And may he teach us to abound in his love one toward another amen
 
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7seven7

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Maynard and SantoSubito, my true brothers in Christ,

Seems i have found myself a couple more fathers, teachers, doctors, misters etc etc. You know what i mean! God bless you and continue to guide you both on that beautiful road you're walking, and guide the rest of us through the wisdom He has so graciously given to you. I only just recently came back to the church after years of faithlessness, and was almost convinced that the catholic church was the work of satan by the chaplain i was talking to in prison. Of course, he was the only religious figure we had access to and after the private revelation i had, i was just enjoying speaking about Christ to anyone i could. But when i started looking into the history of the church and all her teachings, slowly i started realising how foundationless all these rediculous accusations of her really were, but only through study of scripture and of the catechism, through fellow brothers and sisters in Christ like yourselves, and of course especially through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thankyou.

Your brother, Charlie (or Charbel by birth).
 
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iamthelordsforever

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Just like i showed you in my last comment brother, you have been taking one line out of a whole chapter of writing and taking it COMPLETELY out of context to make your point. this seems to be a common practice of people trying to defile the catholic church. I can do the same thing with writings from protestant writings and others. Mate, you have to read the WHOLE lot in order to make sense of that one line. 2000 years of catechesis and doctrine fits together all as one, not as little bits. God bless.
Centuries of oppression by the Catholic Church fits together as one as well.
 
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7seven7

Guest
Centuries of oppression by the Catholic Church fits together as one as well.
lol ok. so we're not talking about doctrines anymore? If you're not satisfied that one argument against the catholic church is sufficient, you turn to a completely different one. End of discussion for me. God bless you bro. I still love u. Really.
 
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Maynard and SantoSubito, my true brothers in Christ,

Seems i have found myself a couple more fathers, teachers, doctors, misters etc etc. You know what i mean! God bless you and continue to guide you both on that beautiful road you're walking, and guide the rest of us through the wisdom He has so graciously given to you. I only just recently came back to the church after years of faithlessness, and was almost convinced that the catholic church was the work of satan by the chaplain i was talking to in prison. Of course, he was the only religious figure we had access to and after the private revelation i had, i was just enjoying speaking about Christ to anyone i could. But when i started looking into the history of the church and all her teachings, slowly i started realising how foundationless all these rediculous accusations of her really were, but only through study of scripture and of the catechism, through fellow brothers and sisters in Christ like yourselves, and of course especially through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Thankyou.

Your brother, Charlie (or Charbel by birth).
Praise God! And welcome home, Charlie!
Awesome story you have. The sacramental life in Christ's own Church is truly blessed and powerful and wonderful. God bless you on your journey.
 

Katy-follower

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The "Black Pope" is the HEAD pope and also head of the Illuminati. It has nothing to do with race. The RCC pope answers to the Black Pope....just fyi

Maggie
The Black pope is the Jesuit General. The Jesuits are a military religious order, basically the army of the Papacy. One of their missions is to destroy protestantism, since they believe anyone not holding to the authority of Rome is considered a heretic. They want all to submit to Roman authority and it's teachings.

Look at the state of protestantism today. Many have embraced Roman teachings. The protestant prosperity gospel is a renewal of the catholic doctrine of indulgences. Conditional salvation is another catholic teaching that has crept it's way into the churches. Some protestant churches have even embraced the catholic Eucharist and sacraments.

Apostasy has infiltrated the churches. It's like cancer.

All this must mean Christ's return is near!!! :)


Yeah, the term Black pope is nothing to do with race. The white pope is the figure head and always wears white, whereas the Jesuits tend to wear black mostly.

Benedict with Adolfo...

en-white-pope-black-pope.jpg


Jesuit General Congregation...

911-34_02.jpg
 
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Abiding

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Now tell them who gives orders to the Black Pope.:p
 

JimJimmers

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2012
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A bad Pope doesn't negate the office, just like a bad president doesn't negate the office. Popes are men and can be led astray.

If you believe that, you are not a true Catholic, as the Catholic Church holds that The Pope is infallible on all matters of faith and morals. A bad Pope doesn't negate the office, but a declaration of a man's infallibility is un-biblical and ungodly.
 
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systemdown101

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I believe the next Pope will be a Kryptonian.

 
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Papal Infallibility

If you believe that, you are not a true Catholic, as the Catholic Church holds that The Pope is infallible on all matters of faith and morals. A bad Pope doesn't negate the office, but a declaration of a man's infallibility is un-biblical and ungodly.
Papal Infallibility
The Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability." They imagine Catholics believe the pope cannot sin. Others, who avoid this elementary blunder, think the pope relies on some sort of amulet or magical incantation when an infallible definition is due.

Given these common misapprehensions regarding the basic tenets of papal infallibility, it is necessary to explain exactly what infallibility is not. Infallibility is not the absence of sin. Nor is it a charism that belongs only to the pope. Indeed, infallibility also belongs to the body of bishops as a whole, when, in doctrinal unity with the pope, they solemnly teach a doctrine as true. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18).


Vatican II’s Explanation

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith" (Lumen Gentium 25).
Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."
The infallibility of the pope is not a doctrine that suddenly appeared in Church teaching; rather, it is a doctrine which was implicit in the early Church. It is only our understanding of infallibility which has developed and been more clearly understood over time. In fact, the doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts: John 21:15–17 ("Feed my sheep . . . "), Luke 22:32 ("I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail"), and Matthew 16:18 ("You are Peter . . . ").

Based on Christ’s Mandate

Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, "Rome has spoken; the case is concluded" (Sermons 131, 10).

Some Clarifications

An infallible pronouncement—whether made by the pope alone or by an ecumenical council—usually is made only when some doctrine has been called into question. Most doctrines have never been doubted by the large majority of Catholics.
Pick up a catechism and look at the great number of doctrines, most of which have never been formally defined. But many points have been defined, and not just by the pope alone. There are, in fact, many major topics on which it would be impossible for a pope to make an infallible definition without duplicating one or more infallible pronouncements from ecumenical councils or the ordinary magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church.
At least the outline, if not the references, of the preceding paragraphs should be familiar to literate Catholics, to whom this subject should appear straightforward. It is a different story with "Bible Christians." For them papal infallibility often seems a muddle because their idea of what it encompasses is often incorrect.
Some ask how popes can be infallible if some of them lived scandalously. This objection of course, illustrates the common confusion between infallibility and impeccability. There is no guarantee that popes won’t sin or give bad example. (The truly remarkable thing is the great degree of sanctity found in the papacy throughout history; the "bad popes" stand out precisely because they are so rare.)
Other people wonder how infallibility could exist if some popes disagreed with others. This, too, shows an inaccurate understanding of infallibility, which applies only to solemn, official teachings on faith and morals, not to disciplinary decisions or even to unofficial comments on faith and morals. A pope’s private theological opinions are not infallible, only what he solemnly defines is considered to be infallible teaching.
Even Fundamentalists and Evangelicals who do not have these common misunderstandings often think infallibility means that popes are given some special grace that allows them to teach positively whatever truths need to be known, but that is not quite correct, either. Infallibility is not a substitute for theological study on the part of the pope.
What infallibility does do is prevent a pope from solemnly and formally teaching as "truth" something that is, in fact, error. It does not help him know what is true, nor does it "inspire" him to teach what is true. He has to learn the truth the way we all do—through study—though, to be sure, he has certain advantages because of his position.

Peter Not Infallible?

As a biblical example of papal fallibility, Fundamentalists like to point to Peter’s conduct at Antioch, where he refused to eat with Gentile Christians in order not to offend certain Jews from Palestine (Gal. 2:11–16). For this Paul rebuked him. Did this demonstrate papal infallibility was non-existent? Not at all. Peter’s actions had to do with matters of discipline, not with issues of faith or morals.
Furthermore, the problem was Peter’s actions, not his teaching. Paul acknowledged that Peter very well knew the correct teaching (Gal. 2:12–13). The problem was that he wasn’t living up to his own teaching. Thus, in this instance, Peter was not doing any teaching; much less was he solemnly defining a matter of faith or morals.
Fundamentalists must also acknowledge that Peter did have some kind of infallibility—they cannot deny that he wrote two infallible epistles of the New Testament while under protection against writing error. So, if his behavior at Antioch was not incompatible with this kind of infallibility, neither is bad behavior contrary to papal infallibility in general.
Turning to history, critics of the Church cite certain "errors of the popes." Their argument is really reduced to three cases, those of Popes Liberius, Vigilius, and Honorius, the three cases to which all opponents of papal infallibility turn; because they are the only cases that do not collapse as soon as they are mentioned. There is no point in giving the details here—any good history of the Church will supply the facts—but it is enough to note that none of the cases meet the requirements outlined by the description of papal infallibility given at Vatican I (cf. Pastor Aeternus 4).

Their "Favorite Case"

According to Fundamentalist commentators, their best case lies with Pope Honorius. They say he specifically taught Monothelitism, a heresy that held that Christ had only one will (a divine one), not two wills (a divine one and a human one) as all orthodox Christians hold.

But that’s not at all what Honorius did. Even a quick review of the records shows he simply decided not to make a decision at all. As Ronald Knox explained, "To the best of his human wisdom, he thought the controversy ought to be left unsettled, for the greater peace of the Church. In fact, he was an inopportunist. We, wise after the event, say that he was wrong. But nobody, I think, has ever claimed that the pope is infallible in not defining a doctrine."
Knox wrote to Arnold Lunn (a future convert who would become a great apologist for the faith—their correspondence is found in the book Difficulties): "Has it ever occurred to you how few are the alleged ‘failures of infallibility’? I mean, if somebody propounded in your presence the thesis that all the kings of England have been impeccable, you would not find yourself murmuring, ‘Oh, well, people said rather unpleasant things about Jane Shore . . . and the best historians seem to think that Charles II spent too much of his time with Nell Gwynn.’ Here have these popes been, fulminating anathema after anathema for centuries—certain in all human probability to contradict themselves or one another over again. Instead of which you get this measly crop of two or three alleged failures!" While Knox’s observation does not establish the truth of papal infallibility, it does show that the historical argument against infallibility is weak.
The rejection of papal infallibility by "Bible Christians" stems from their view of the Church. They do not think Christ established a visible Church, which means they do not believe in a hierarchy of bishops headed by the pope.
This is no place to give an elaborate demonstration of the establishment of a visible Church. But it is simple enough to point out that the New Testament shows the apostles setting up, after their Master’s instructions, a visible organization, and that every Christian writer in the early centuries—in fact, nearly all Christians until the Reformation—fully recognized that Christ set up an ongoing organization.
One example of this ancient belief comes to us from Ignatius of Antioch. In his second-century letter to the church in Smyrna, he wrote, "Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8, 1 [A.D. 110]).
If Christ did set up such an organization, he must have provided for its continuation, for its easy identification (that is, it had to be visible so it could be found), and, since he would be gone from earth, for some method by which it could preserve his teachings intact.
All this was accomplished through the apostolic succession of bishops, and the preservation of the Christian message, in its fullness, was guaranteed through the gift of infallibility, of the Church as a whole, but mainly through its Christ-appointed leaders, the bishops (as a whole) and the pope (as an individual).

It is the Holy Spirit who prevents the pope from officially teaching error, and this charism follows necessarily from the existence of the Church itself. If, as Christ promised, the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church then it must be protected from fundamentally falling into error and thus away from Christ. It must prove itself to be a perfectly steady guide in matters pertaining to salvation.
Of course, infallibility does not include a guarantee that any particular pope won’t "neglect" to teach the truth, or that he will be sinless, or that mere disciplinary decisions will be intelligently made. It would be nice if he were omniscient or impeccable, but his not being so will fail to bring about the destruction of the Church.
But he must be able to teach rightly, since instruction for the sake of salvation is a primary function of the Church. For men to be saved, they must know what is to be believed. They must have a perfectly steady rock to build upon and to trust as the source of solemn Christian teaching. And that’s why papal infallibility exists.
Since Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church (Matt. 16:18b), this means that his Church can never pass out of existence. But if the Church ever apostasized by teaching heresy, then it would cease to exist; because it would cease to be Jesus’ Church. Thus the Church cannot teach heresy, meaning that anything it solemnly defines for the faithful to believe is true. This same reality is reflected in the Apostle Paul’s statement that the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). If the Church is the foundation of religious truth in this world, then it is God’s own spokesman. As Christ told his disciples: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
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I for one have never confused infallibility with impeccability, either of which is an alarming description of any person who is propped up to be the representative of Christ on earth in this age, since any member of His Body represents Him on earth always bearing in mind that He ONLY is the Head of the Body of Yeshua, Christ on this earth in this age.
To prop up any man with these attributes applied by men is blasphemy, simple and true.
You may play with words all you would like, but others do not like. Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, amen!
 
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7seven7

Guest
I for one have never confused infallibility with impeccability, either of which is an alarming description of any person who is propped up to be the representative of Christ on earth in this age, since any member of His Body represents Him on earth always bearing in mind that He ONLY is the Head of the Body of Yeshua, Christ on this earth in this age.
To prop up any man with these attributes applied by men is blasphemy, simple and true.
You may play with words all you would like, but others do not like. Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, amen!
Mate, did you not understand what all that mean? It wasn't applied by men. It was applied by Christ Himself! lol He wasn't playing with words like alot of christians do, He quoted the appropriate passages straight out of the bible. It made perfect sense. Read it again maybe? i dunno. God bless.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,234
6,529
113
I for one have never confused infallibility with impeccability, either of which is an alarming description of any person who is propped up to be the representative of Christ on earth in this age, since any member of His Body represents Him on earth always bearing in mind that He ONLY is the Head of the Body of Yeshua, Christ on this earth in this age.
To prop up any man with these attributes applied by men is blasphemy, simple and true.
You may play with words all you would like, but others do not like. Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, amen!
Mate, did you not understand what all that mean? It wasn't applied by men. It was applied by Christ Himself! lol He wasn't playing with words like alot of christians do, He quoted the appropriate passages straight out of the bible. It made perfect sense. Read it again maybe? i dunno. God bless.

My response is according to the Word. There is no justification in mankind giving such titles to any man other than the Lord. Anyone believing any man is infallible or impeccable, again, other than our Lord, is groping in darkness.
 
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Abiding

Guest
I for one have never confused infallibility with impeccability, either of which is an alarming description of any person who is propped up to be the representative of Christ on earth in this age, since any member of His Body represents Him on earth always bearing in mind that He ONLY is the Head of the Body of Yeshua, Christ on this earth in this age.
To prop up any man with these attributes applied by men is blasphemy, simple and true.
You may play with words all you would like, but others do not like. Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, amen!

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
 
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Donkeyfish07

Guest
The Black pope is the Jesuit General. The Jesuits are a military religious order, basically the army of the Papacy. One of their missions is to destroy protestantism, since they believe anyone not holding to the authority of Rome is considered a heretic. They want all to submit to Roman authority and it's teachings.
Technically, almost all protestants submit to Roman teachings by accepting and observing Sunday as the Sabbath day, not Saturday. The Catholic Church took it upon themselves to change it and claimed authority to do so, and most protestants don't even know that. Observance of Christmas and the practice of placing Christmas trees in the home is an old pagan tradition that predates the birth of Jesus (although it was not called Christmas in earlier times) that was incorporated into Christianity by Rome. They changed the name and gave it a facelift is all. Most protestants don't know that either. Rome is still doing a good job of keeping people in ignorance unfortunately.