A Positive Eschatology (Post Mill) vs. 2 Timothy 3 - Will Things Get Worse?

[eternally-gratefull]

Just to entertain the idea.... Perhaps this verse in psalms supports Post-mill.

Psalm 86:9
[SUP]9 [/SUP]All nations whom You have made
Shall come and worship before You, O Lord,
And shall glorify Your name.

Question is this, is this referring to the days of King Solomon, when Israel had peace all around her.

Actually, I believe it would have to support pre-mil. There has not been a time in history when all nations have come and worshiped the true God, even in Solomans day. If we look at prophesy concerning events on earth. This does not happen until the actual millenial period. If the mellinial period is now (as some suggest) when do they think this would happen? the world is getting further away from God, not nearer to him.

 

[Abiding]

Actually, I believe it would have to support pre-mil. There has not been a time in history when all nations have come and worshiped the true God, even in Solomans day. If we look at prophesy concerning events on earth. This does not happen until the actual millenial period. If the mellinial period is now (as some suggest) when do they think this would happen? the world is getting further away from God, not nearer to him.

Well that doesnt help...according to rev 20 that doesnt happen. Gog/magog remember?(all nations)

If you cant see it as the church age then its funny that its quoted again in Rev 15:3-4

Why would you think that the text means all the people from these nations?

Or you can fit it into the final state....since the rev text talks about judgement.

 

[Bookends]

Actually, I believe it would have to support pre-mil. There has not been a time in history when all nations have come and worshiped the true God, even in Solomans day. If we look at prophesy concerning events on earth. This does not happen until the actual millenial period. If the mellinial period is now (as some suggest) when do they think this would happen? the world is getting further away from God, not nearer to him.

Lets take a look at the Hebrew word used for nations.

I know you don't trust the online lexicons out there, so you are welcome to give the definition from your source.

» H1471 «


#1471 גּוֹי gowy {go'-ee} rarely (shortened) גֹּי goy {go'-ee}

apparently from the same root as H1465; TWOT - 326e

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)
n pr m

1c) Goyim? = "nations"

Seems to be it could be taken as all nations as we understand it, or it could be referring to the tribes of Israel.
I eagerly await your response.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lets take a look at the Hebrew word used for nations.

I know you don't trust the online lexicons out there, so you are welcome to give the definition from your source.

» H1471 «


#1471 גּוֹי gowy {go'-ee} rarely (shortened) גֹּי goy {go'-ee}

apparently from the same root as H1465; TWOT - 326e

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


n m
1) nation, people
1a) nation, people
1a1) usually of non-Hebrew people
1a2) of descendants of Abraham
1a3) of Israel
1b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)
n pr m

1c) Goyim? = "nations"

Seems to be it could be taken as all nations as we understand it, or it could be referring to the tribes of Israel.
I eagerly await your response.

No, you could be right I guess, I would have to look it up. If my memory serves right, Nation in the OT usually refered to gentiles, or non people of Isreal. But my memory has failed before..lol

But when I look elsewhere in scripture. other prophesies say every tribe nation and tongue will worship God. This can not be taken to mean Isreal. this can only mean every nation on earth. I do not know how more clear that God can be that everyone on earth will worship him, than to say every nation, tribe and language.

 

[Bookends]

No, you could be right I guess, I would have to look it up. If my memory serves right, Nation in the OT usually refered to gentiles, or non people of Isreal. But my memory has failed before..lol

But when I look elsewhere in scripture. other prophesies say every tribe nation and tongue will worship God. This can not be taken to mean Isreal. this can only mean every nation on earth. I do not know how more clear that God can be that everyone on earth will worship him, than to say every nation, tribe and language.

Well maybe that all it means, that every ethnic will be included in the great nation of God's people; All peoples as in all types of people...It might help also to look closer at the verse surrounding it.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

postmillennialism was a popular mainstream view in the 1800s...when it seems like the world was just getting better and better...

it badly fell out of favor after the two world wars and the great depression and the cold war...though the dominionists and new apostolic reformation movement adhere to postmillennialism...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well maybe that all it means, that every ethnic will be included in the great nation of God's people; All peoples as in all types of people...It might help also to look closer at the verse surrounding it.

Which one? there are many verses and many OT prophesies concerning this event. We must take them all into account should we not? And PS. it has to do with the millenium.. So is it now. as in the amill view, or later, as in the pre mil view. This is where interpretation comes to view. we will get different answers I am sure.

 

[crossnote]

Looked at Scripture, looked outside... PostMill? hmmm it looks more like Post Toasties.

 

[zone]

unless you believe in universalism...

people from every kindred tongue and nation are already and have been worshipping the Lord from Calvary on, and even the faithful strangers within the commonwealth of israel worshipped God.

certainly, the Gospel started for the Jew first, then to the Greek (gentile) at Pentecost.
it's amazing to me how we might either forget that Great Day too readily...or assume it has a Latter Rain gap thing waiting to happen (supposedly happening now)

it already happened.

Acts 2
1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

so already jews who spoke the languages of 'every nation under heaven' received the Good News...it wouldn't be long before the Stone became a great mountain.

so we can easily say the nations worship the Lord right now.
and we know redeemed in heaven are from every nation.

i don't see anything not going according to Plan (A)

 

[Bookends]

Zone, are you saying you can't believe in post-mill if you believe in plan A? The post-mills that I have heard don't believe in a rebuilt temple and a revised Jewish system of worship, but simply think there will be a time of Christendom in where Christ is the main focus in culture of every nation.

I'm trying to argue with you or for the post-mills, I'm sure you know that. But one could say that the Gospel going to all the nations just like the bible says is different having all nations acknowledge Him in His glory.

Personal I still think that psalms 86:9 David is prophesying and foreseeing paradise restored. David is looking forward to that, because in the psalm it seems to me that King David's enemies (King Saul most likely I think) had him on the run..

 

[Kefa52]

............Define worse..............

 

[Abiding]

Ps 86:9 will be fulfilled according to 1 Cor 15
which excludes all pretrib/premil thinking.

 

[crossnote]

Ps 86:9 will be fulfilled according to 1 Cor 15
which excludes all pretrib/premil thinking.

Poof! Just like that?
Pss 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
That verse really got rid of those scondrels

 

[Abiding]

Poof! Just like that?
Pss 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
That verse really got rid of those scondrels

No not the psalm but 1 cor 15. that puts it in context.

 

[zone]

Zone, are you saying you can't believe in post-mill if you believe in plan A? The post-mills that I have heard don't believe in a rebuilt temple and a revised Jewish system of worship, but simply think there will be a time of Christendom in where Christ is the main focus in culture of every nation.

I'm trying to argue with you or for the post-mills, I'm sure you know that. But one could say that the Gospel going to all the nations just like the bible says is different having all nations acknowledge Him in His glory.

Personal I still think that psalms 86:9 David is prophesying and foreseeing paradise restored. David is looking forward to that, because in the psalm it seems to me that King David's enemies (King Saul most likely I think) had him on the run..

hi Bookends.
no, i'm definitely not postmil.
i shiver to think about which "christians" will be sitting in courtrooms and running gov'ts.
if they are the same guys who are lining up to do it - no, no a thousand times no


Dominionism is the alleged movement of politically active conservative Christians in the United States working toward either a nation governed by Christians or one governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law.

The existence of a dominionist movement is challenged, particularly by those in the Christian Right, who generally avoid the label and see the characterizations as misleadingly implying that mainstream conservative Christians subscribe to Dominion Theology, a viewpoint held by a much smaller group of Christians explicitly advocating for a theocracy.

Dominionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems with the common belief that society should be governed exclusively by the law of God, as codified in the Bible. The two main streams of Dominion Theology are Christian Reconstructionism and Kingdom Now Theology. Though these two differ greatly in their general theological orientation (the first is strongly Reformed and Neo-Calvinistic, the second is Charismatic), they share a postmillennial vision in which the Kingdom of God will be established on Earth through political and (in some cases) military means.

Dominion Theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click


the simple postmil utopians (shiny happy fuzzy ending people) i like, even though i don't agree with them, because they are optimists - as long as they don't try to rule the world or hand it over to the Krazy N.A.R. guys.

i do believe the passages which speak of the nations worshipping him forever are the new creation post 2nd Advent.
and i do believe all nations will acknowledge Him in His glory...even the ones (or individuals from them) who are bound carried away.

every knee will most certainly bow.

there's a passage somewhere in the OT (can't think of it right now) which speaks of some slinking toward Him , or having to drawing near to acknowledge Him in His glory, but it's out of fear and hatred...been trying to remember what it is for months.

 

[zone]

thing is in Lutheranism we don't do eschatology from the pulpit.
and little in Bible study.

we say basically the end is nigh because each will die...that's the thing we focus on.
how short our lives are and how important it is to stay focused on Jesus.
remember our great salvation.
and stay together as a family.

 

[RickShafer]

I am can never know which ton you refer to because the ones that I have talked to here all claim they have the truth but none of them agree with each other.

Wasn't Luther a catholic monk, who read a catholic book were he learned the catholic doctrine of grace and believed that's all you need? He was very catholic wasn't he.

Yes, he was, until he read the Bible and started teaching it.
Namely that "the just shall live by faith";
And: "Ye are saved by grace through faith and that (faith) not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast".
Once he started up with that, the head dictator of the incorporated church excommunicated him at the council of Worms.
But Luther had friends in high places - Fredrick the Wise(ruler of Bavaria). The "Holy Roman Emperor" needed Fredrick's troops to help him fight wars, - so Luther lived in Bavaria, wrote, and thrived. - Brings new meaning to the scripture "Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that when you fail, they may bring you into everlasting habitations." - Luke 16:9

 

[Bookends]

a better view of post-millennialism presented here, as well as pre-mill and amill. A good debate.

[video=youtube;ws0vbT4Yu2s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws0vbT4Yu2s[/video]

 

[Abiding]

wasnt much there.

 

[Bookends]

wasnt much there.

That depends on how much someone already knows about these 3 views presented. Anyway, I didn't take the post-mill guy (I forget his name, Doug I think) as being a Christian Reconstructionist or Dominationist as many people want to paint the post-millennialist (that's basically what I got out of it). And I liked his point that the 1st century church wouldn't have 21st century thought that John speaking of "Henry Kissinger" in their reading of the individual beast.