A Question about Free Will, Hell and how it is all set up.

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

When you say you have been a Christian for quite some time, what does that mean to you? Because what you have showed us is that you have not placed your trust in God. I am sorry to be so blunt I don't like wasting words What I am getting at is, some people think they are Christian simply because they were born into a Christian home and brought up going to church on Sundays, etc. That does not make one a Christian. Giving mental assent to the things they have been taught, but not truly believed in their hearts, is not enough That is a nominal Christian (in name only), and not a born again believer.

I was a "born again christian", I chose to be baptised when I was an adult. I studied apologetics for 6 years. I was a true and headstrong believer, I had faith and it was unshakeable because of my understanding of God, His will and His doctrine. I understood how it all fit together. Whenever I didn't understand something, all I had to do was consult His word and He would give me an answer. I know there are things that I cannot understand, like how He made life, or how He pulled matter into being. I may not know how He did it, but I can at least understand why.

But I cannot understand why He sends people to Hell when it should be well within his power to make it otherwise.

 

[trofimus]

I would also like to strengthen my faith and my belief. And I would like to do so by gaining a better understanding.

Try to look there:

The Project Gutenberg eBook of Theodicy, by G. W. Leibniz, SUMMARY OF THE CONTROVERSY REDUCED TO FORMAL ARGUMENTS

Some questions or arguments are very similar to yours.

 

[graceNpeace]

I am unsure of what I believe now. Because I cannot understand why God has made a system that would inevitably send people to Hell when his omnipotence would lead me to believe that he has the power to create a system that would send us all to Heaven.

You are forgetting that for God to be God, he must also be perfect in justice!
That means that sin cannot just be ignored....
And neither can human free will....
Yes, God is omnipotent but He made humans in His own image, and that means we have free will, we are not God-driven automatons - we are free to oppose God and most of human-kind does exactly that...

But, in fact, the "system" that God has is truly amazing since since it perfectly satisfies the demand for justice, that sin does not go unpunished, because Jesus Christ, on the cross, took our sins on His shoulders and paid that price for our sin.

God was NEVER just content to let man die and go to Hell.
Through Jesus Christ, He went, and continues to go, to extraordinary lengths to keep us out of Hell!
Salvation is freely offered to all, by grace through faith.
Nothing of merit is required on our part - only to believe in Jesus Christ as the perfect sacrifice for our sin.

God even sends His Holy Spirit to illuminate the hearts and minds of mankind to turn away from a lifestyle of sin and to accept that freely given offer of salvation by grace through faith...

Truly, once the Gospel message is known to one, one is without excuse...

 

[Magenta]

We can understand so many other things about God. We understand that he loves us, that he created us in his image. Why should it be that I am unable to understand why he sends people to Hell?

Those are wonderful things to acknowledge I am happy to hear you say that You do acknowledge that He has given us a choice. That choice is put before you. "Who do you say that I am?" It is the most important question you will ever answer. I know how painful it can feel not knowing. And you do seem sincere in your seeking. I would encourage you to pray about it. Do you pray? Get down on your knees every morning, and ask God to reveal Himself to you in ways you can understand and accept. Get down on your knees again at night and thank Him for every little thing. Do you go to church? Do you have a face-to-face spiritual community that teaches the revealed written Word of God?

I was very close to your age when I started seriously seeking, but I was very rebellious and defiant toward the whole God of Scripture thing. I had a lot of things to overcome, but we can overcome when we place our faith and trust in Him. I wrote some poems you may glean something from. I would hope they encourage you. You can find them here~ http://christianchat.com/christian-poems-poetry/117236-what-love.html​

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Isn't it really true that people send themselves there by choosing to do evil and not love the truth? He's simply allowing them to have what they want.

People may choose sin over God. But they do not want Hell. We cannot fathom how horrible it is, so we cannot truly want it because we do not know what it is it. I'm positive that if anybody gets sent to Hell it will certainly not be what they want.

 

[trofimus]

People may choose sin over God. But they do not want Hell. We cannot fathom how horrible it is, so we cannot truly want it because we do not know what it is it. I'm positive that if anybody gets sent to Hell it will certainly not be what they want.

So, you would expect God to warn us more about hell? It would be serving from fear. Like a tortured person who will say and admit anything just to stop the pain.

 

[LW97]

"With this free will comes the possibility of denying God and being sent to Hell."

If we do that, God will chastise us and try to get us back.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

If we can understand that God is love and that He is omnipotent, then we can imply that hell is somehow part of the creation the loving and omnipotent God would create.

Like black color in a colorful picture. Like low tones in a music. It was somehow necessary for a general image/song to be perfect, thats why God made it. The simple fact that we, from our small planet and from our small physical life are not able to give a specific answer to "why", because we are not able to see things from God´s perspective, does not mean that we should lose our faith in Him. My dog also does not understand many things in my room.

I think the reasoning would be within our understanding. Sending people to Hell when He can just as easily send them to Heaven even though He loves us and wants us all to come into Heaven with Him is a contradiction. And this contradiction denies his omnipotence.

 

[LW97]

You are forgetting that for God to be God, he must also be perfect in justice!
That means that sin cannot just be ignored....
And neither can human free will....
Yes, God is omnipotent but He made humans in His own image, and that means we have free will, we are not God-driven automatons - we are free to oppose God and most of human-kind does exactly that...

But, in fact, the "system" that God has is truly amazing since since it perfectly satisfies the demand for justice, that sin does not go unpunished, because Jesus Christ, on the cross, took our sins on His shoulders and paid that price for our sin.

God was NEVER just content to let man die and go to Hell.
Through Jesus Christ, He went, and continues to go, to extraordinary lengths to keep us out of Hell!
Salvation is freely offered to all, by grace through faith.
Nothing of merit is required on our part - only to believe in Jesus Christ as the perfect sacrifice for our sin.

God even sends His Holy Spirit to illuminate the hearts and minds of mankind to turn away from a lifestyle of sin and to accept that freely given offer of salvation by grace through faith...

Truly, once the Gospel message is known to one, one is without excuse...

amen, that is true

 

[trofimus]

I think the reasoning would be within our understanding.

Not necessarily.

Sending people to Hell when He can just as easily send them to Heaven even though He loves us and wants us all to come into Heaven with Him is a contradiction. And this contradiction denies his omnipotence.

The simple fact that God could save all or eliminate all evil from the beginning (so that nobody would ever sin) does not automatically mean it would be the best way to do things.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Those are wonderful things to acknowledge I am happy to hear you say that You do acknowledge that He has given us a choice. That choice is put before you. "Who do you say that I am?" It is the most important question you will ever answer. I know how painful it can feel not knowing. And you do seem sincere in your seeking. I would encourage you to pray about it. Do you pray? Get down on your knees every morning, and ask God to reveal Himself to you in ways you can understand and accept. Get down on your knees again at night and thank Him for every little thing. Do you go to church? Do you have a face-to-face spiritual community that teaches the revealed written Word of God?

I was very close to your age when I started seriously seeking, but I was very rebellious and defiant toward the whole God of Scripture thing. I had a lot of things to overcome, but we can overcome when we place our faith and trust in Him. I wrote some poems you may glean something from. I would hope they encourage you. You can find them here~ http://christianchat.com/christian-poems-poetry/117236-what-love.html​

I pray, yes. And I also attend a local church. Thank you for your encouragement.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

So, you would expect God to warn us more about hell? It would be serving from fear. Like a tortured person who will say and admit anything just to stop the pain.

No. I am saying that people may choose sin. But they do not want Hell.

 

[Magenta]

People may choose sin over God. But they do not want Hell. We cannot fathom how horrible it is, so we cannot truly want it because we do not know what it is it. I'm positive that if anybody gets sent to Hell it will certainly not be what they want.

Not every Christian accepts the mainstream belief about endless fiery torments in hell. Nor does one necessarily belong to any cult to have a legitimate, Biblically sound alternative to such beliefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stott

 

[trofimus]

No. I am saying that people may choose sin. But they do not want Hell.

Ok, what do you mean by Hell with capital H?

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Not necessarily.



The simple fact that God could save all or eliminate all evil from the beginning (so that nobody would ever sin) does not automatically mean it would be the best way to do things.

It would satisfy his perfect love in that nobody would be sent to Hell.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Ok, what do you mean by Hell with capital H?

Hell as in the place. I capitalize it because it is a noun. Hell is the absence of God's love, the gnashing of teeth and all that.

 

[Gabriel2020]

If you owned a thousand cattle and six hundred of them was dangerous to the other four hundred, what would you do with the six. Hundred dangerous cattle.?

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

If you owned a thousand cattle and six hundred of them was dangerous to the other four hundred, what would you do with the six. Hundred dangerous cattle.?

I would make them safe from themselves and others.

 

[trofimus]

Hell as in the place. I capitalize is because it is a noun. Hell is the absence of God's love, the gnashing of teeth and all that.

What if the glory and significance of saved ones will be greater and greater for eternity and the pain, desperation and significance of damned ones smaller and smaller for eternity?

Its very hard for us to get the right perspective while we are still in this material Universe.

Also, as Magenta says, you do not have to believe that the eternal hell equals eternal physical concious pain. You do not even have to think that the hell as a place is eternal.

 

[Kevin_Bo-Bevin]

Not every Christian accepts the mainstream belief about endless fiery torments in hell. Nor does one necessarily belong to any cult to have a legitimate, Biblically sound alternative to such beliefs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stott

True, some may believe that it is not an awful fiery torment. But this is somewhat tangental to the topic.