A Study of the Scriptures: All the Stories in the Bible.

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Jul 22, 2014
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Actually, the meaning here is that an unbaptized, unconverted person is not to take the Passover. The Passover service is a reaffirmation of the commitment one makes at baptism.
See the thread rules in the OP (Original Post). This is not a debate thread. It is a Study Thread, my friend. If you disagree please post or provide a link to another thread to start a debate.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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And they said,
"So do, as thou hast said."

And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said,
"Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth."
In the Old Testament, Abraham made ready 3 measures of fine meal for the Lord & his 2 angels.

In the New Testament, the Lord speaks of 3 measures of meal involving a parable.

"Another parable spake he unto them; 'The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'" (Matthew 13:33).

What is the meaning of the parable?

Well, "leaven" is represented of the gentiles in this New Testament parable here; For the picture we see in Matthew 13:33 "The whole was leavened" (i.e. the fullness of the gentiles) needs to come to it's full completion in God's program of allowing this world enough time to repent before Jesus sets up His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:24b

And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So the kingdom of Heaven will come when the fullness of the leaven as a whole or when the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This a parallel of when of when the Harvest is ready to be reaped, too.

The Harvest is Ready to Be Reaped:

Revelation 14:14-15

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time has come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


Matthew 13:28b-30 NLT and Matthew 13:37-41 NLT

"Should we pull out the weeds?" they asked. "No", he replied, "you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn."

“The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil."


Everyone will have a chance to repent and accept Him until the End.


For the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

For God so loved the world... (John 3:16).
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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In the Old Testament, Abraham made ready 3 measures of fine meal for the Lord & his 2 angels.

In the New Testament, the Lord speaks of 3 measures of meal involving a parable.

"Another parable spake he unto them; 'The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'" (Matthew 13:33).

What is the meaning of the parable?

Well, "leaven" is represented of the gentiles in this New Testament parable here; For the picture we see in Matthew 13:33 "The whole was leavened" (i.e. the fullness of the gentiles) needs to come to it's full completion in God's program of allowing this world enough time to repent before Jesus sets up His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:24b

And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So the kingdom of Heaven will come when the fullness of the leaven as a whole or when the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This a parallel of when of when the Harvest is ready to be reaped, too.

The Harvest is Ready to Be Reaped:

Revelation 14:14-15

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time has come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


Matthew 13:28b-30 NLT and Matthew 13:37-41 NLT

"Should we pull out the weeds?" they asked. "No", he replied, "you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn."

“The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil."


Everyone will have a chance to repent and accept Him until the End.


For the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

For God so loved the world... (John 3:16).
Leaven is a type of sin. The Gentiles were considered unclean. Even Jesus said to the Canaanite woman that the Canaanites were likened unto dogs in Matthew 15:25-28. In fact, in the Old Testament, in order for a Gentile man to enter into God's program of salvation, he needed to repent and accept the Lord, and then be circumcised so as to show that he was a part of the Jewish nation. Even the gospel of the Kingdom first went out to Israel first. But in Christ (With his death, burial, and resurrection), there would end up being no Jew or Gentile; And the gospel would be preached unto all nations. For all would be one in Christ. But the completion of God's program of salvation will not come to an end until everyone (All the Gentiles) has had a chance to repent and accept Him (i.e. Christ).
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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Leaven is a type of sin. The Gentiles were considered unclean. Even Jesus said to the Canaanite woman that the Canaanites were likened unto dogs in Matthew 15:25-28. In fact, in the Old Testament, in order for a Gentile man to enter into God's program of salvation, he needed to repent and accept the Lord, and then be circumcised so as to show that he was a part of the Jewish nation. Even the gospel of the Kingdom first went out to Israel first. But in Christ (With his death, burial, and resurrection), there would end up being no Jew or Gentile; And the gospel would be preached unto all nations. For all would be one in Christ. But the completion of God's program of salvation will not come to an end until everyone (All the Gentiles) has had a chance to repent and accept Him (i.e. Christ).
In other words, when people ask me why is God allowing for all the evil to take place in the world, I say that the Lord is allowing more and more people a chance to repent until the End. That way the Kingdom of Heaven will have all of it's citizens its supposed to have (i.e. The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto leaven placed into 3 measures of meal).

Leaven is a yeast that proofs (or puffs up) bread. Until the world proofs (or puffs up) every last possible person that can receive the gospel in the end times, then Jesus will return to set up His Kingdom.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
Here we see Abraham bringing meat (a calf), milk, and butter unto the Lord and his two angels.

All three of these things is representative of the Word of God. The milk is representative of the basic things within the Scriptures. A babe is an individual who does not yet have an understanding of the deep things within God's Word and they only are capable of showing what the Word says on the surface. This is the milk understanding of the Word. Yet, understanding the milk of the Word (or the basics of God's Word) is necessary before moving onto the meat of the Word. Here is the passage in Scripture that talks about the milk and the meat of God's Word.

Hebrews 5:12-14​

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."


Yeah, but what about the butter? Well, butter is made by the churning of milk, so we need to discover the "churning process" within the Scriptures. For churning is a repeated process that is done over time so as to produce it's intended result.

1 Corinthians 2:13​

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."


We learn about the word of God by comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Going back and forth. A spiritual churning. Spiritual milk is the simple use of the Bible. Spiritual butter is the churning of the spiritual milk or going back and forth throughout the Bible comparing spiritual things with spiritual things.

Here below we find a passage about butter.

Isaiah 7:15​

"Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."


Butter: =
Studying the Bible by comparing spiritual things with spiritual things to reveal the hidden treasures within the word of God.

Honey: =
The word of God and His law.

Eat: =
Taking in the word of God, study.

So the hidden knowledge of God’s words (butter) and His Law (honey) shall he study (eat) that he may know to refuse evil and choose good.

Isaiah 7:14-15​

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good."


Here the Bible prophesied that Jesus or Immanuel would study the Holy Scriptures and compare scripture to scripture so that He could understand (eat) the hidden wisdom of God (butter) and His law (honey). This would obviously lead our Lord to have a meat understanding of Scripture (Of which we see Him use in defeating the devil, and as a part of His Earthly ministry).

Source Used:
https://hystar.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/butter-and-honey-shall-he-eat-isaiah-715/
 
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Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet,

And they said,
"So do, as thou hast said."

And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.
It is interesting that Abraham was allowed by Christ to wash the feet of the Lord and the two angels. This suggests that while they were most likely spirit, they had enough physical substance so as to let Abraham to touch their feet and wash them with water. For they agreed to have their feet washed when they said,

"So do, as thou hast said."


Also, Abraham had offered them food and drink (butter, meat, and milk) and the Lord and the two angels consumed it, too. Again, this changes our popular understanding of what a spirit actually is normally like. It appears that a spirit being can interact with our physical universe enough to even eat and drink certain things. Granted, manna (a physical food) did come down from Heaven (Which is a spiriual place).

However, what adds further to this mystery is that Jesus says that flesh and bones is not like what a spirit has when he said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me have." (Luke 24:39). So the physical qualities of a spirit body versus a physical fleshy body are not exactly the same according to Jesus even though the spirit body may appear to have physical substance at certain times.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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And they said unto him,
"Where is Sarah thy wife?"

And he said,
"Behold, in the tent."
In this case, I believe the angels were asking Abraham where Sarah his wife was at and not the Lord.

And he said,
"I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son."
The Lord tells Abraham,

"Sarah your wife shall have a son"

This was going to be a miracle birth or the having of a miracle child. They were going to have a child past the age of child bearing in their old age. This saying of the Lord is similar of the angel Gabriel saying to Mary that she was going to have a child by way of a virgin birth (i.e. a miracle) when he said,

"You shall bring forth a son."

For both speak of miracle births or promised childs by way of a miracle.

And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying,
"After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"

And the Lord said unto Abraham,
"Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?'
Is any thing too hard for the Lord?"


After the Lord said that Abraham & Sarah will have a son in their old age and she overheard and laughed about it to herself, the Lord then asked Abraham why his wife laughed and why she expressed words of doubt. The Lord then asked,

"Is anything too hard for the Lord?"​

This similar to what the angel Gabriel said when she just told Mary that she would have a virgin birth and that Elizabeth would give birth to a child in her old age when he said,

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."

At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son."

Then Sarah denied, saying,
"I laughed not;"

For she was afraid.

And he said,
"Nay; but thou didst laugh."


(Genesis 18:1-15).


...
Here we see a believer fearing the Lord. Sarah here just denied to the Lord that she did not laugh even though that is what she clearlly did. She lied out of fear. But the Lord corrected her about how she did laugh.

Anyways, I believe this was Sarah's first major or profound encounter with God in her life that led her to trust in the Lord concerning the promise whereby she was able to bear seed by faith when she was past age.

Hebrews 11:11
"Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised."
 
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In the Old Testament, Abraham made ready 3 measures of fine meal for the Lord & his 2 angels.

In the New Testament, the Lord speaks of 3 measures of meal involving a parable.

"Another parable spake he unto them; 'The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'" (Matthew 13:33).

What is the meaning of the parable?

Well, "leaven" is represented of the gentiles in this New Testament parable here; For the picture we see in Matthew 13:33 "The whole was leavened" (i.e. the fullness of the gentiles) needs to come to it's full completion in God's program of allowing this world enough time to repent before Jesus sets up His eternal Kingdom.

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Matthew 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 21:24b

And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So the kingdom of Heaven will come when the fullness of the leaven as a whole or when the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This a parallel of when of when the Harvest is ready to be reaped, too.

The Harvest is Ready to Be Reaped:

Revelation 14:14-15

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time has come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.


Matthew 13:28b-30 NLT and Matthew 13:37-41 NLT

"Should we pull out the weeds?" they asked. "No", he replied, "you’ll uproot the wheat if you do. Let both grow together until the harvest. Then I will tell the harvesters to sort out the weeds, tie them into bundles, and burn them, and to put the wheat in the barn."

“The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels.

Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil."


Everyone will have a chance to repent and accept Him until the End.


For the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

For God so loved the world... (John 3:16).
Oh, and if anyone is interested, here is a good commentary on Matthew 13:33, too.




Source Used:
https://books.google.com/books?id=a...page&q=Eve and three measures of meal&f=false
 
Jul 22, 2014
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In other words, here is the meaning behind the "Parable of the Leaven in the 3 measures of meal":

1. Woman = Eve (The mother of all living).

2. Leaven = Sin

3.. 3 Measures of Meal (Bread) = Eve, Adam, and Seth
(Who give birth to the entire world including the Gentile church).

4. Kingdom of God = The gentiles who repented all the way up to the point of the End of the World.​

Bread proofs (poofs up) or rises because of the yeast.
Sin poofs up or rises within mankind until the End and more and more Gentiles will repent and become citizens of the Kingdom of God. Hence, the Kingdom of God ls like a woman who puts leaven into 3 measures of meal until it is whole (full or complete). Until the time of the Gentiles comes in until the End of the World.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Story #9 - Lot's Story (Continued).

~ What is Your Lot in Life?
~ (Continued)

Act 1 - (Family Troubles - Continued)

~ Part 2: ~
- (A Lot In Trouble):

And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of nations; That these made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, (Genesis 14:1-2).

And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, ... and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim; (Genesis 14:8).

And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain. And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way. And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.

And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which is on the left hand of Damascus. And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people.

(Genesis 14:10-16).


...
Edit Correction:

Story #9 - Lot's Story (Continued).

~ What is Your Lot in Life?
~ (Continued)

Act 2 - (A Lot in Trouble - Part 1)


Edit Note Correction:

Looking back on Lot's Story: I noticed that when looking at the whole of his story, that his rescue by Abraham from being taken captive by the King of Sodom would be Act 2 or the "Conflict" of Lot's Story. Act 1 is the "Set Up" of the Story and that would have been when Lot left Abraham over their not being enough land for the both of them. Act 2 would continue with Abraham praying for Lot to be saved from God's Judgment that was going to come upon Sodom. In other words, Lot keeps getting into trouble wth Sodom and Abraham keeps having to go thru "conflict" to save him.

So the above I quoted should say "Act 2" and not "Act 1."

If you are interested on my Commentary on this part of Lot's Story, you can check that out here.
 
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Story #9 - Lot's Story (Continued).

~ What is Your Lot in Life?
~ (Continued)

Act 2 - (A Lot in Trouble - Part 2)

And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

And the LORD said,
"Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

And the LORD said,
"Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

And Abraham drew near, and said,
"Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

And the LORD said,

"If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."


And Abraham answered and said,
"Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which
am but dust and ashes: Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five?"

And he said,
"If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it."

And he spake unto him yet again, and said,
"Peradventure there shall be forty found there."

And he said,
"I will not do it for forty's sake."

And he said unto him,
"Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there."

And he said,
"I will not do it, if I find thirty there."

And he said,
"Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there."

And he said,
"I will not destroy it for twenty's sake."

And he said,
"Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there."

And he said,
"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."

And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


(Genesis 18:16-33).
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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looks like Abraham figures that God will find 10 righteous people...

I wonder if God and Abraham are using the same ideas about righteousness?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Story #9 - Lot's Story (Continued).

~ What is Your Lot in Life?
~ (Continued)

Act 2 - (A Lot in Trouble - Part 2)

And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

And the LORD said,
"Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

And the LORD said,
"Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

And Abraham drew near, and said,
"Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

And the LORD said,

"If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."


And Abraham answered and said,
"Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which
am but dust and ashes: Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five?"

And he said,
"If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it."

And he spake unto him yet again, and said,
"Peradventure there shall be forty found there."

And he said,
"I will not do it for forty's sake."

And he said unto him,
"Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there."

And he said,
"I will not do it, if I find thirty there."

And he said,
"Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there."

And he said,
"I will not destroy it for twenty's sake."

And he said,
"Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there."

And he said,
"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."

And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


(Genesis 18:16-33).
Genesis 18 is the first time we see Intercessory Prayer in the Bible. Intercessory Prayer is simply praying on the behalf of another or others. Yes, Abraham is actually talking face to face with a Pre-Incarnate form of Christ. However, we have to realize that prayer is merely only a form of communication with God; And we know Abraham communicates to the Lord so as to save his nephew Lot from the coming Judgment that is about to hit Sodom and Gomorrah. In fact, we see many forms of intercessory prayers thru out the Holy Scriptures and we can learn a great deal about each of them. Abraham bargained with God in His prayer. It was a back and forth conversation between himself and the Lord; And he was trying to save the city (in order to save Lot) by making the claim that if there be enough righteous people in the city then surely the Lord will not destroy it. The question is: Why didn't the Lord just reveal the answer of how many righteous are in the city? Why didn't the Lord just immediately say the last line " I will not destroy it for ten's sake" and or just put a pause to Abraham's bargaining?

Well, because for one, God likes to converse with us. As strange as it might appear to some of us looking from an outside perspective, God wants us to talk with Him (Even though He knows everything). Secondly, God wants us to plea in a righteous way with Him so as to love others and to give glory to Him. For Abraham was trying to save Lot. The Lord knew this. The Lord had seen that Abraham's desire was a righteous one. He conversed with the Lord. However, the Lord was not just going to answer his prayer by him merely providing a word or a quick one phrase sentence. For God wanted to converse with Abraham and see that Abraham cared for Lot. For imagine if Abraham just always received immediately whatever he asked from God? Could you imagine that? It would be like putting your few coins in a vending machine just to get a coke. If such were the case, then Abraham would never appreciate those particular prayers in his life as being answered.

Praying for something concerning a righteous thing that you desire so as to please God and to save lives many times calls us truly pray and talk with God in a way that draws us closer to Him (So that our faith is being built more and more in the Lord). We see a more intense form of this in the story of Hannah. In her story she prayed so fervently so passionately that the high priest thought she was drunk. She even made a bargain with God, too. That if God would give her a child that she would dedicate him to the Lord. In fact, her prayer was answered (For she gave birth to the prophet Samuel). We see Moses pray to God and ask that his name be stricken from the book of life so as to save his people. That is how much he loved them and wanted to intercede on their behalf. The apostle Paul desired the same thing; For he wished to give up his life for the salvation of the Jews (Who could not see during his life time), too. In the Garden of Gethsemane, we see Jesus pray to the Father and then take the cup that had all our sins within it (i.e. all of mankind's sin). In fact, when Jesus took on this sin under prayer, his sweat was as great drops of blood. For Jesus was taking man's sin in the body of his flesh so as to be our substitute. So as to die in our place. For he who was without sin was made to be sin for us. For he was wounded for our transgression and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (i.e. whip marks) we are healed. Jesus then took the punishment for sin and died upon the cross in our place. Now, that is love. The ultimate love that was ever shown in all of the history of the universe. In fact, Abraham had seen Christ's day and was glad.

So Abraham might have interceded for Lot. We might pray and intecede for our brothers and sisters, but nothing will ever compare to the intercessory prayer Jesus made in the Garden of Gethsemane on our behalf when he was in prayer with the Father.
 
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In the Garden of Gethsemane, we see Jesus pray to the Father and then take the cup that had all our sins within it (i.e. all of mankind's sin). In fact, when Jesus took on this sin under prayer, his sweat was as great drops of blood. For Jesus was taking man's sin in the body of his flesh so as to be our substitute. So as to die in our place. For he who was without sin was made to be sin for us. For he was wounded for our transgression and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (i.e. whip marks) we are healed. Jesus then took the punishment for sin and died upon the cross in our place. Now, that is love. The ultimate love that was ever shown in all of the history of the universe. In fact, Abraham had seen Christ's day and was glad.

So Abraham might have interceded for Lot. We might pray and intecede for our brothers and sisters, but nothing will ever compare to the intercessory prayer Jesus made in the Garden of Gethsemane on our behalf when he was in prayer with the Father.
Yet, does that mean we should not make Intercessory Prayers for others and just let Jesus do all the work for us in prayer while we do nothing? No. Jesus did the things that He did so that we can walk as He walked. For we are to conform to the image of Jesus Christ. Now, do not misunderstand me; We are not God. No, no. We are nothing. But we can let Christ (God) work thru us. For can we love like Jesus all on our own without Him? No. It is Christ's love that moves within in us and transforms our lives day by day. Can we pray exactly like Jesus on our own for others without Him? Again, no. We need Jesus and the Spirit to pray to God the Father in such a way that glorifies God and helps to further His Kingdom with His people. So look to Jesus and ask Him to help you to pray today like never before. Ask Him to move within your life to pray for others today.

Be like an Abraham and talk with God to help you to save a life today.
 
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And the LORD said,
"Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."
Here we see the Lord say, "shall I hide that thing which I do"? This is important to understand because knowledge of God's true ways and or deep spiritual truths is tied with doing what is right. Abraham commanded his children and his household after himself that they will keep the way of the Lord. Surely this is not a coincidence that the Lord shares in what He is doing concerning Sodom with Abraham.

We see a parallel of this in 1 John chapter 2. John says of the brethren that they do not need any man to teach them. John then says that they all know that anyone who does righteousness is born of God.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (1 John 2:27-29).

In fact, Jesus said the mysteries of the Kingdom are given unto his disciples, but they are not given to those who are not (See Matthew 13:11). Again, this is not a coincidence that Jesus' disciples obeyed what Jesus commanded them.


 
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And the LORD said,
"Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

In John chapter 17, we learn that Christ once shared a glory with the Father before the foundation of the world. In the Incarnation it is clear to many Christians (Not all) that during the Incarnation (i.e. when Christ entered the flesh of a human being thru Mary) that He chose to become a servant and suppress certain divine attributes by his own choice (Like Omniscience, or having all knowledge) in order to be like a man so as to be our substitute. Most refer to this teaching as the "Kenosis" and it can be found in Philippians 2:6-9. Some define the "Kenosis" as a complete emptying whereby Christ had absolutely no divine power whatsoever as a man during His ministry. But I do not believe that is the case at all.

Jesus Christ had power during His time here on Earth. Jesus said He was going to raise up his temple (body) three days later. Jesus said He had power to raise the dead to life just as the Father can raise the dead to life. Jesus said where two are three are gathered in his name, He is among them. Jesus held everything together by the word of his power when he purged us of our sins (Which would have been on the cross). Jesus had the power of God to forgive sin and provide eternal life to people. Jesus had the power to take away the sins of the entire world.

Anyways, I used to think Genesis 18:20 and Genesis 22:12 are statements that were spoken by God from a human perspective so that we can understand God better. However, I currently do not believe that may be the case now. For one, if one takes the metaphorical approach, what exactly is the precise spiritual meaning to these passages? Two, it makes it sound like we cannot trust God when He speaks plainly. Three, Jesus says in several places that Christ will come to gain knowledge by experience. For in Genesis 18, he says it in several places like he is going to learn by experience with words like...


I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes. (Genesis 18:21, 26)

Now, do not misunderstand me here. I am not an Open Theist who believes God can only learn from experience and He is not capable of knowing all of the future precisely or that He does not know all things. No, no. Most definitely not. God the Father still knows all things (Including the future) and Christ is one with the Father (Whereby the Son can gain access to most all knowledge from the Father at any time). I believe Christ merely chose to begin to limit certain knowledge as God before the foundation of the world. However, in the Incarnation it was yet another level of suppressing knowledge even more, though. For Christ learned the Scriptures by the Spirit as a child and He grew in wisdom. So then why did Jesus do this? Well, two verses comes to mind. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8); And Christ was the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
 
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In fact, we see here that the reason why Christ took on the form of a servant was to ultimately give glory to God the Father.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, ofthings in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:6-11).
 
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And Abraham drew near, and said,
"Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
"Shall not the Judge of the Earth Do Right?"

Here we see Abraham question God on whether or not He will destroy the righteous with the wicked. Some today believe this is an excuse to justify Eternal Conscious Torment instead of Conditional Immortality. Some might use this to justify other actions that God might allow, making it seem like God's morality is unknowable; Like God telling Hosea to marry a prostitute (When God did not tell him to do that). However, God's good ways are knowable. God is good. God's good ways are simple and easy to understand. One must have the heart of a child. Be uncomplicated and not have an attachment to sin and or the ways of this world. Now, how was God in favor of Abraham's question? Because Abraham did not destroy the righteous with the wicked. God made sure Lot was taken out of the city before Judgment would hit those who were wicked. So God did do right. God did not destroy the righteous with the wicked.
 
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Okay, so why call this part of the story as Lot's Story if I am focusing mostly on Abraham?

Well, because the reason why this whole conversation exists is because of Lot. Abraham is striving to save Lot and is asking the Lord to save the city so as to spare his nephew. But the Lord already had a plan in motion with the two angels (that were with the Lord and Abraham previously in Genesis 18). For they had continued to go towards Sodom so as to save Lot (While Abraham and the Lord discussed the Judgment involving the city of Sodom). In other words, Lot is the unspoken centerpiece of this conversation; And it is the much needed backdrop information on letting us know what is going on in Genesis 19 (In the next chapter) when the two angels arrive so as to save Lot.
 
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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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God did not destroy the righteous with the wicked.
I like that... I think it's comforting...

a possible application is when people see something like homosexuality, and they feel that the usa is in danger of judgement.

sounds like God doesn't destroy the good along with the bad.