Adam's fall and its consequences
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Steeping away from the Calvinist and Arminianism part of the discussion. You touched on something very cool .
saying that God is a God of extremes . I agree to a point . That from man’s vantage He is a God of extremes.
I think it may be said better that He is a God of tremendous proportions. He’s qualities are beyond our comprehension.
His qualities only seem extreme from our perspective.
Blessings
Bill
saying that God is a God of extremes . I agree to a point . That from man’s vantage He is a God of extremes.
I think it may be said better that He is a God of tremendous proportions. He’s qualities are beyond our comprehension.
His qualities only seem extreme from our perspective.
Blessings
Bill
Ok simple questions here . if we have free will,can you chose not to sin and be perfect? If so do we need Christ Jesus ?
If not how are we called ? Now once called is it somthing in us that allows us to have saving faith? If yes are some of us just inherently better than the other to chose good over evil . If not that what compels us to chose What is good ?
Blessings
Bill
If not how are we called ? Now once called is it somthing in us that allows us to have saving faith? If yes are some of us just inherently better than the other to chose good over evil . If not that what compels us to chose What is good ?
Blessings
Bill
Yes. That is exactly what we find in Scripture. And the meaning here is ethically righteous.
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. (Ezek 3:21).
Brown-Driver-Briggs
צַדִּיק[SUB]206[/SUB]adjectivejust, righteous; —
b.in General, ethically:Psalm 5:13; Psalm 7:10; Psalm 11:3; Psalm 11:5 21t. Psalms (+below),Proverbs 2:20; Proverbs 3:33; Proverbs 4:18; Proverbs 9:9 56t. Proverbs; Ecclesiastes 3:17 7t. Ecclesiastes;Isaiah 3:10; Isaiah 57:1 (twice in verse); Jeremiah 20:12; Lamentations 4:13; Ezekiel 3:20,21 (twice in verse) + 12 t. Ezekiel; Hosea 14:10; "" תמיםGenesis 6:9 (P) Job 12:4; "" נָקִיJob 17:9; Job 22:19; Job 27:17;Psalm 94:21; "" יִשְׁרֵי לֵבPsalm 32:11; Psalm 64:11;Psalm 97:11.
Now this is something else entirely. Unless one is as perfect/righteous as God, he cannot be regarded as perfect. Therefore sinners are justified by grace through faith, so that their faith is accounted or imputed for righteousness. And that is the righteousness of Christ.
Yes, as noted above.
There is no "if not". And God calls all sinners to Himself through the Gospel and by the power of the Holy Spirit.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Rom 10:13-15)
That phraseology is misleading. It is by the power of the Gospel, and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit that faith is generated in the hearts of those who hear the Gospel.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)
Once again, Scripture does not present any sinner as inherently better or worse. What we do know from Scripture is that all will not obey the Gospel, and Jesus said the reason they will not believe is because some men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16).
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)
Well for one thing all men have a conscience, therefore their conscience directs them to do what is good.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another (Rom 2:14,15)
For another reason, the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convict men and convince them to turn to the Savior.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)
Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. (Ezek 3:21).
Brown-Driver-Briggs
צַדִּיק[SUB]206[/SUB]adjectivejust, righteous; —
b.in General, ethically:Psalm 5:13; Psalm 7:10; Psalm 11:3; Psalm 11:5 21t. Psalms (+below),Proverbs 2:20; Proverbs 3:33; Proverbs 4:18; Proverbs 9:9 56t. Proverbs; Ecclesiastes 3:17 7t. Ecclesiastes;Isaiah 3:10; Isaiah 57:1 (twice in verse); Jeremiah 20:12; Lamentations 4:13; Ezekiel 3:20,21 (twice in verse) + 12 t. Ezekiel; Hosea 14:10; "" תמיםGenesis 6:9 (P) Job 12:4; "" נָקִיJob 17:9; Job 22:19; Job 27:17;Psalm 94:21; "" יִשְׁרֵי לֵבPsalm 32:11; Psalm 64:11;Psalm 97:11.
Now this is something else entirely. Unless one is as perfect/righteous as God, he cannot be regarded as perfect. Therefore sinners are justified by grace through faith, so that their faith is accounted or imputed for righteousness. And that is the righteousness of Christ.
Yes, as noted above.
There is no "if not". And God calls all sinners to Himself through the Gospel and by the power of the Holy Spirit.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Rom 10:13-15)
That phraseology is misleading. It is by the power of the Gospel, and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit that faith is generated in the hearts of those who hear the Gospel.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)
Once again, Scripture does not present any sinner as inherently better or worse. What we do know from Scripture is that all will not obey the Gospel, and Jesus said the reason they will not believe is because some men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? (Rom 10:16).
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)
Well for one thing all men have a conscience, therefore their conscience directs them to do what is good.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another (Rom 2:14,15)
For another reason, the Gospel and the Holy Spirit convict men and convince them to turn to the Savior.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (Acts 2:37)
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This begins to be useless.
You can find both in the Bible.
1. Verses like "choose, do, do not do, repent, believe".
2. Verses like "you can do nothing without me, faith is a gift, repentance is given by God, it does not matter if ones wills, but if God gives mercy".
---
Until you realize that these are two different layers, you will still (without end) try to push one point against the other and trying to make one of them "win".
We choose, repent, believe here in our timeline, life and circumstances.. God is the one who is in the ultimate control over our timeline, life and circumstances, because He created them.
You can find both in the Bible.
1. Verses like "choose, do, do not do, repent, believe".
2. Verses like "you can do nothing without me, faith is a gift, repentance is given by God, it does not matter if ones wills, but if God gives mercy".
---
Until you realize that these are two different layers, you will still (without end) try to push one point against the other and trying to make one of them "win".
We choose, repent, believe here in our timeline, life and circumstances.. God is the one who is in the ultimate control over our timeline, life and circumstances, because He created them.
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What a poor view of God. God needing to manipulate man? Get real. Sovereign God needing to manipulate man what a fantasy. Reducing God to a bully that manipulates men what a theology.
God operates in absolute holiness and love. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God operates in absolute holiness and love. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes you see both in the bible.
You see that the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. How so? To teach us that we can do nothing without Christ. Faith is a gift, repentance is given by God, etc.
If we think we are doing it, and must do it, and teach others this is so then we are making the same mistake as Judaism did before us. We didn't learn what the schoolmaster taught.
I don't understand how this is even a point of contention. Come to me and I will give you rest. If you have come to Christ and you are a Christian I would think that you should know all this. But very few do. We still have to argue. How is it that Christians don't even know what rest is???
You see that the law is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. How so? To teach us that we can do nothing without Christ. Faith is a gift, repentance is given by God, etc.
If we think we are doing it, and must do it, and teach others this is so then we are making the same mistake as Judaism did before us. We didn't learn what the schoolmaster taught.
I don't understand how this is even a point of contention. Come to me and I will give you rest. If you have come to Christ and you are a Christian I would think that you should know all this. But very few do. We still have to argue. How is it that Christians don't even know what rest is???
Is there any single verse somewhere that ties 1. and 2. together?
One example with both present that I can think of is:
Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
If isolated from the text, which some do, it seems to say salvation is by human works when it states "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" but then it continues to say that it is God who is at work in us both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I believe these verses are excellent in highlighting both, that we are to work out our salvation but it is God who is at work in us to will and do!
Sounds contradictory, but God's ways are higher than our ways.
I cannot speak for the Apostle Paul but I am quite sure he did not understand it completely either, for he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
One example with both present that I can think of is:
Philippians 2:12-13
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
If isolated from the text, which some do, it seems to say salvation is by human works when it states "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" but then it continues to say that it is God who is at work in us both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I believe these verses are excellent in highlighting both, that we are to work out our salvation but it is God who is at work in us to will and do!
Sounds contradictory, but God's ways are higher than our ways.
I cannot speak for the Apostle Paul but I am quite sure he did not understand it completely either, for he was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I was reading through the posts and just wanted to ask: Are you saying that when scripture says that God will not remember their sins and iniquities . . . that's not what he means? When scripture says God "regrets", that's not what it means? I understand that these are figures of speech used to give God human attributes . . . but it doesn't make it NOT true but emphasizes these human traits so that we can better know and understand him. Just trying to clarify what you meant . . .
I was reading through the posts and just wanted to ask: Are you saying that when scripture says that God will not remember their sins and iniquities . . . that's not what he means? When scripture says God "regrets", that's not what it means? I understand that these are figures of speech used to give God human attributes . . . but it doesn't make it NOT true but emphasizes these human traits so that we can better know and understand him. Just trying to clarify what you meant . . .
So it has something similar, but it is not literally the same as in us, humans.
I agree with what Augustine said about this in his Answers to Simplician. If I could find it in English, I would quote it, but I cant find this work in English.
Well, you really didn't answer my post but I think I understand your position - Figures of speech are not truth. A figure of speech makes something LESS real?
I tend to disagree . . . I believe it puts emphasis on what is being said. God "saw", God "said", the "wrath" of God, a "jealous" God, all these are that particular figure of speech - Anthropopatheia (or Condescensio). All scripture is "God-breathed" . . . emphasizes the fact that scripture came from God. I believe God's "feelings" are described in such a way for us to better understand him. If he "repents" - we know what it is to repent; when he is "grieved", we know what it is to be grieved . . . we can relate to Him in a more personal way, i.e. relationship.
I tend to disagree . . . I believe it puts emphasis on what is being said. God "saw", God "said", the "wrath" of God, a "jealous" God, all these are that particular figure of speech - Anthropopatheia (or Condescensio). All scripture is "God-breathed" . . . emphasizes the fact that scripture came from God. I believe God's "feelings" are described in such a way for us to better understand him. If he "repents" - we know what it is to repent; when he is "grieved", we know what it is to be grieved . . . we can relate to Him in a more personal way, i.e. relationship.