Against Calvinism: God reacts to mankind. God asks mankind.
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I'm not trying to make a straw man. I've seen the "reaction" comment dozens of time.
My thread isn't meaningless because it is something Calvinists have said so it's worth tackling down. As you can read above... one of the first posts, a Calvinists is already acknowledging it. This is my experience. No research needed for something that I've experienced many times.
My thread isn't meaningless because it is something Calvinists have said so it's worth tackling down. As you can read above... one of the first posts, a Calvinists is already acknowledging it. This is my experience. No research needed for something that I've experienced many times.
Brother, PLEASE look up anthropomorphic language.
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”[Genesis 22:12]
Did God not know what Abraham would do before he went to Mount Moriah?
Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”[Genesis 18:20,21]
Did God have to come to to find out what was going on? Could He have not see it from His throne?
For God to change His mind, He has to learn something. If He has to learn something, then He's not omniscience. If He's not omniscience, He's no better than Moloch.
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”[Genesis 22:12]
Did God not know what Abraham would do before he went to Mount Moriah?
Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”[Genesis 18:20,21]
Did God have to come to to find out what was going on? Could He have not see it from His throne?
For God to change His mind, He has to learn something. If He has to learn something, then He's not omniscience. If He's not omniscience, He's no better than Moloch.
Nevertheless, God reacts to both the fallen and saved man. Prayer may be have to be done a certain way. I notice Abraham and Gideon humbly asked. God reacted and answered.
I never said this was a service for mankind or that God is our bellhop. I only wanted to make the point that God graciously reacts. This does not mean God is obligated to answer. However, in order to be a God of love... it would be necessary that he acts like a God of love.
I never said this was a service for mankind or that God is our bellhop. I only wanted to make the point that God graciously reacts. This does not mean God is obligated to answer. However, in order to be a God of love... it would be necessary that he acts like a God of love.
God reacts to His covenant children. You're all over the place and are making zero sense here.
Did God react to Abram when Abram was in Ur minding his own business? No. But it was after God sought him out that God reacted to Abraham.
Read Psalms. David pleaded for God's assistance all the time.
You should know this.
Did God react to Abram when Abram was in Ur minding his own business? No. But it was after God sought him out that God reacted to Abraham.
Read Psalms. David pleaded for God's assistance all the time.
You should know this.
You haven't properly represented the Calvinist view is the problem. I don't think any Calvinist says God doesn't ever react, but more that God is not obligated to react based on what man chooses. God reacts to man only if he wills to do so. God is under no obligation to do anything and is not subjected to forces outside of himself. He is supreme and sovereign over all things in heaven and in earth and is under no compulsion to do anything unless he wills to do so. It all boils down to is man's will sovereign and God subject unto man, or is God's will sovereign and man subject unto God. This is the root of the issue in the Calvinist/Arminian debate. It always comes down to this.
Another aspect of this argument calls into questions God's foreknowledge and omniscience. Do you believe that God knew all things in advance and knew for certain the outcome of every single choice man will ever make? Not that he knows infinite possibilities, but that he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt from eternity past what the final outcome of all things ever would be?
Calvinists take the stance that God knew the outcome of all things prior to creation. That means everything that has ever happened or ever will was known to God at all times. He preconceived and preordained the fact that he would allow sin to enter the world and preconceived and preordained a plan to save man from their sins through the death, burial, and resurrection of his Son. God is not surprised by anything because he already knows the outcome and his plans cannot be thwarted; he is not in heaven scrambling to make things happen based on what we do down here on earth; and he is in no way under any obligation to do anything for anyone unless he wills to do so.
Mankind and their entitlement issues.
Another aspect of this argument calls into questions God's foreknowledge and omniscience. Do you believe that God knew all things in advance and knew for certain the outcome of every single choice man will ever make? Not that he knows infinite possibilities, but that he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt from eternity past what the final outcome of all things ever would be?
Calvinists take the stance that God knew the outcome of all things prior to creation. That means everything that has ever happened or ever will was known to God at all times. He preconceived and preordained the fact that he would allow sin to enter the world and preconceived and preordained a plan to save man from their sins through the death, burial, and resurrection of his Son. God is not surprised by anything because he already knows the outcome and his plans cannot be thwarted; he is not in heaven scrambling to make things happen based on what we do down here on earth; and he is in no way under any obligation to do anything for anyone unless he wills to do so.
Mankind and their entitlement issues.
God doesn't react, he acts!
In fact, none us should react. We all need to act, based on what we know to be true!
I just looked up the word "react" in Biblegateway in a couple of versions, and like I thought, it is not there. I couldn't think of the word in Greek or Hebrew, but then, if the word is not in the Bible, why would I know it?
So your title and premise are wrong. Next time you decide to invent some theological stance, at least make sure it in in the Bible, ok?
In fact, none us should react. We all need to act, based on what we know to be true!
I just looked up the word "react" in Biblegateway in a couple of versions, and like I thought, it is not there. I couldn't think of the word in Greek or Hebrew, but then, if the word is not in the Bible, why would I know it?
So your title and premise are wrong. Next time you decide to invent some theological stance, at least make sure it in in the Bible, ok?
[SUP] [/SUP]“Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, “Strike this army with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked.[2 Kings 6:16-18]
Here we see Elisha's servant is afraid as they were surrounded by the Arameans. Elisha pleads with God and God graciously answers and opens Elisha's servant eyes to see horses and chariots of fire in the hills surrounding them.
God does react to His covenant children. The OP is just a Calvinist witch hunt.
Here we see Elisha's servant is afraid as they were surrounded by the Arameans. Elisha pleads with God and God graciously answers and opens Elisha's servant eyes to see horses and chariots of fire in the hills surrounding them.
God does react to His covenant children. The OP is just a Calvinist witch hunt.
I personally don't have a problem saying God reacts to ppl. But He doesn't react to the unregenerate's desires. What I mean is the unregenerate is devoid of the Holy Spirit and the only way ppl can pray to God is in the name of Jesus. No unregenerate person can pray in the name of Jesus, as they do not have the authority to do so. If anyone turns a deaf ear to my instruction, even their prayers are detestable.[Proverbs 28:9] Seeing that the unregenerate have deafened ears, if they pray to God, He will consider them detestable.
The OP is just an anti-Calvinist witch hunt. Nothing more, nothing less.
The OP is just an anti-Calvinist witch hunt. Nothing more, nothing less.
Does God react, or does he respond?! React implies blindly acting against something that is often beyond control. Responding means God is sovereign and in control. He responds according to his plan.
The whole OP is against the sovereignty of God, in assuming that a poor, weak kneed God has to run along behind men who are leading, and do their bidding, or at least try to clean up the messes, or maybe have men clean up after him. Because if God is not sovereign and in control, well then he might just be stuck following and reacting to mortal men!
The whole OP is against the sovereignty of God, in assuming that a poor, weak kneed God has to run along behind men who are leading, and do their bidding, or at least try to clean up the messes, or maybe have men clean up after him. Because if God is not sovereign and in control, well then he might just be stuck following and reacting to mortal men!
I do not have a horse in this predestination vs. freewill merry go round. BUT the Lord certainly knew that the Ninevites were going to repent. Further, JONAH KNEW they would repent also. To suggest God changed His Mind because of what men do denies that He is God at all.
10 [FONT="]Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
[/FONT][FONT="]4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.
[/FONT]Jonah knew all along that the Ninevites would repent and God would spare them. The reason Jonah ran away, and didn't want the Lord to show mercy, was because what the Assyrians did to Israel, when they conquered the northern kingdom.
It would be like God asking a Jewish French man to go to Berlin, in 1942, and give Hitler and the nazis the warning message Jonah gave Nineveh, knowing they would repent, and the Lord would have mercy on them.
10 [FONT="]Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
[/FONT][FONT="]4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he became angry. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]2 So he prayed to the Lord, and said, “Ah, Lord, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.
[/FONT]Jonah knew all along that the Ninevites would repent and God would spare them. The reason Jonah ran away, and didn't want the Lord to show mercy, was because what the Assyrians did to Israel, when they conquered the northern kingdom.
It would be like God asking a Jewish French man to go to Berlin, in 1942, and give Hitler and the nazis the warning message Jonah gave Nineveh, knowing they would repent, and the Lord would have mercy on them.
I have heard nonCalvinists believe the moon is made of cheese. Should I prove otherwise first, or simply assume I might have heard wrong and save myself the effort?
I'm lazy. I choose the latter. Try it some time.
I'm lazy. I choose the latter. Try it some time.
I've heard another Calvinist say in the threads that God causes everything... and the result.
I responded by asking, if that's true, then God caused evil. God would necessarily be the cause of evil. He seemed to have understood the tension in Calvinistic logic after that exchange.
God uses primary and secondary causes to fulfill His plans.
Primary causes are the causes He actively involves Himself in, such as the crucifixion of the Christ, stirring up the Assyrians to destroy Israel, &c.
Secondary causes are those were He allows things to happen. The fall of Adam He allowed the serpent to beguile Eve and then gave to Adam.
Another way of stating this is decretive will and permissive will.
Primary causes are the causes He actively involves Himself in, such as the crucifixion of the Christ, stirring up the Assyrians to destroy Israel, &c.
Secondary causes are those were He allows things to happen. The fall of Adam He allowed the serpent to beguile Eve and then gave to Adam.
Another way of stating this is decretive will and permissive will.
That actually is Calvinism... It's a contradiction that Calvinists ignore. Usually Calvinists just say it's a mystery or it's beyond our understanding. Calvinists have to skip explaining or facing a few things to make sense of Calvinism. Or the "It's a hard scripture to understand" statement is given.
Here's some of what the Western confessions of faith says... which is Calvinism...
Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
^ People are determined to that which is good..... YET they come MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST freely
That's the sense of Calvinism.
Here's some of what the Western confessions of faith says... which is Calvinism...
Chapter X
Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
^ People are determined to that which is good..... YET they come MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOST freely
That's the sense of Calvinism.