An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

[Grandpa]

I don't see that in the great commission. It is true that after you are saved you are elect and you are predestined in Christ that however is not the good news of the gospel. The good news is that Christ has shed His blood was buried and rose again to save those who will come to Him are be saved. The call and the provision are universal to all men. The gospel is so simple even a child can comprehend it. The possession of the gospel is specific to those who will believe.

The gospel is so simple that the rich man and the highly educated man have great difficulty comprehending it. Yet an eight year old child comes and simply trusts that Jesus loves him, will forgive his sin and give him eternal life. Only after folks get saved do they go about to construct elaborate and exclusive systems of religion to comfort their ego.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

2 Corinthians 3:14 [FONT=&quot]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

[/FONT]Ezekiel 36:26-27
[FONT=&quot]26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Something happens to us after we are saved that causes our understanding to be different, wouldn't you say???[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did any of that surprise God?

Did it make God react in a way that He did not foresee?

If He did foresee it why did He allow it?

What would our life b like if God did not allow it, he forced Adam and Eve to do really get, and never gave them th ability to chose?

 

[Grandpa]

Just because God foreknows does not dictate that God predetermines.

The chief end of man is to glorify God. Man will glorify God either in his willing obedience or by his rebellious condemnation.

This is why the sovereignty of God is not threatened by man's free will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So God was not surprised.

God had a plan for Adam and Eve and implemented that plan. The plan for all of mankind from the foundation of the world.

 

[notuptome]

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Something happens to us after we are saved that causes our understanding to be different, wouldn't you say???

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We change but God does not. We do not preach nor did any of the apostles preach that to be saved you must be predestined or elect. Correlation is not causation we become elect and predestined in Christ not to Christ.

The only message the unsaved are able to understand is the gospel message. Theology is not for the unsaved but for the redeemed. Let's not take the great message of the gospel and make it so difficult that men will not see it as for them. That is after all what the Pharisees did in Judaism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B][/COLOR]The scripture of John 3:18-21 along with Matthew 11:25-27 & John 6:44, the Father would not bother to open the eyes to reveal His Son to them if they were preferring their evil deeds rather than come to the Light to be reproved of them. The evil deed of unbelief is included as the reason why the Father would not bother to reveal His Son.

Well since we are all in a state of unbelief at one time, non of us could be saved,

something had had to happen to get us to repent, and not remain in unbelief

 

[notuptome]

So God was not surprised.

God had a plan for Adam and Eve and implemented that plan. The plan for all of mankind from the foundation of the world.

God did not implement Adam and Eve falling in the garden. Lucifer acted in opposition to God. God was not surprised and acted to redeem that which was His and not for Lucifer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We change but God does not. We do not preach nor did any of the apostles preach that to be saved you must be predestined or elect. Correlation is not causation we become elect and predestined in Christ not to Christ.

The only message the unsaved are able to understand is the gospel message. Theology is not for the unsaved but for the redeemed. Let's not take the great message of the gospel and make it so difficult that men will not see it as for them. That is after all what the Pharisees did in Judaism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I totally agree that we would never have these conversations with un-saved people.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So God was not surprised.

God had a plan for Adam and Eve and implemented that plan. The plan for all of mankind from the foundation of the world.

Yes, in spite of our free will decision to chose to reject his authority, and deny his word, he loved us so much, he made a plan and created us anyway

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I totally agree that we would never have these conversations with un-saved people.

Sadly some see them, and it turns them away from God,

not OT when we discuss civil, but when we tear each other down.

 

[Grandpa]

God did not implement Adam and Eve falling in the garden. Lucifer acted in opposition to God. God was not surprised and acted to redeem that which was His and not for Lucifer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A lot of people, christians, believe that Adam ruined Gods original plan in the garden.

I don't think Christ was ever plan B.

But that's just me. I'm biased.

 

[Grandpa]

Sadly some see them, and it turns them away from God,

not OT when we discuss civil, but when we tear each other down.

I'm just disappointed when 'saved' Christians still have the same understanding as before being saved.

Something should have changed.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm just disappointed when 'saved' Christians still have the same understanding as before being saved.

Something should have changed.

not sure what you mean here, I do not want to assume i know and make a rash judgment

If your talking about the gospel. You have to understand it to accept it and have faith in it to be saved, You have alot to learn about what iit means to now be sanctified, yes. But that is a different subject.

If your talking about our life in christ as it moves forward. then I agree. it is sad.

 

[Jimbone]

Limited atonement is a false doctrine. God so loved the world - that He gave His Son.

John 4:41-42 (NASB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Many more believed because of His word;

[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Luke 2:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

[SUP]11 [/SUP] for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

( why especially of believers? - because they chose to believe in Christ when they heard the message of Him and the forgiveness of sins )


Jesus being crucified with 2 thieves is a picture of everyone in the world included in Christ's death on the cross. One thief chose to believe - the other did not.

God thought it was so important - the 2 thieves which represent all in the world - both those that chose to believe and those that don't are in all the gospels. Matt. 27:38, Mark 15:27, Lk. 23:32, John 19:18

OH Grace, grace, grace, I truly hope I don't sound like I am just trying to start trouble, but I feel the need to point this out because it fly's in the face of your own professed views so blatantly. I don't know how one can be more hypocritical. I know these are strong words and hope we have talked together enough that you understand I am not trying to "attack" you, I just see a major problem with how you come across at times.

If you see anyone criticizing any of the "teachers", or teachings of people you like, you are the first one to start the whole "you shouldn't be attacking them", "we are all in Christ", "just love, love, love, then show love, but never call out anyone for anything" type stuff. If ANYONE says a word about Joseph Prince you swoop right in to tell them how wrong they are for judging him. That's all well and good, we are allowed to disagree, but what I get from you is that as Christians we should never do that. Yet.....

Here we are in this thread and Johnny_B laid out his views on Limited Atonement, and the first thing you respond with is "Limited atonement is a false doctrine." Really? What in the world gives you the right to lay out what is and is not doctrine when you are the first to shut people down for calling out what they feel "false doctrine" any of the "teachers" you like teach? Do you have some special right none of us has? It's so blatantly hypocritical I don't understand. I'm not even sure if you even realize this, but I wanted to point it out because I see it time and time again from you. If you practiced what you preached you would never comment on any of the threads you didn't agree with, and just let the folks that do agree and/or do think we should discuss and debate these things go on and do it.

Again Grace777 I think you are a super nice guy, and you do try to be a positive force on this site, but I just can't understand how you can talk out of both sides of your mouth this bad. It honestly takes away from any argument you may or may not have. You say don't judge, yet you judge, does the whole splinter/log/eye thing not apply here maybe? Well I've said my piece, I hope I didn't come across too harsh sounding, I just thought it was a true observation and I wanted to ask to see how you felt about it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A lot of people, christians, believe that Adam ruined Gods original plan in the garden.

I don't think Christ was ever plan B.

But that's just me. I'm biased.

I think Adam destroyed what God desired, Just like the jews who God wanted to take under his wing destroyed what he desired, He did not want sin and what sin has caused on the world since the fall, But his plan, No one can destroy Gods plan. If person A will not do what God wants, God can always get some one else. He can even use sinners to do his will, knowing how they will act in situations, Pharoah was proof of that.

 

[ForthAngel]

Yes God loves every soul He ever created. This is why you cannot understand Gods person. It is sin that God hates and not the souls of men.

If you did not have yourself so puffed up you might catch a glimpse of Gods mercy to man who is corrupted by sin. Every soul that is cast into hell is cast there against Gods will. It is mans will that he cleave to his sin and it will cost him eternal condemnation.

Could you explain these verses for me? You dodged some of my last questions, so I am hoping you will answer these.

Proverbs 6:16-19English Standard Version (ESV)
16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.

I would argue that all of these examples above from proverbs mean people, but two I can be sure about making that claim. Verse 19, a false witness, and one who sows discord. Is this passage true? Does God hate people that do these things? Then there is this:

Psalm 5
4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Does this passage mean what it says? I can keep going, but these two make it very clear that God does hate some people. It seems to me that you are the one who does not understand who God is because in order to define God the way you define him, you have to abolish a good portion of scripture to do so. Or else you have to redefine words to mean something they clearly don't mean, which is a common practice now days.

Everyone is an Arminian until they get saved then some become Calvinists.

By the way those told I never knew you are nations not individuals. Context that pesky thing that upsets proof texts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Please show me, in context, how this passage is speaking of nations and not individuals.

Matthew 7:21-23English Standard Version (ESV)

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Again you have to go to warping the text to fit your ideas. The same way you claimed John 6 is only talking about the Apostles (which you turned around and lied about BTW). I would really like some clarity on how Jesus is addressing nations in this passage though. Please do explain.

 

[ForthAngel]

It would seem that some of you would benefit from a dictionary. You aren't predestined after the fact. That's post-destined or something if that word even existed. That's not predestined. Election is another word you might benefit from defining properly.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Limited atonement is false. Election is misunderstood and corrupted by men who fail to know the nature of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

AMEN.........

 

[Grandpa]

I think Adam destroyed what God desired, Just like the jews who God wanted to take under his wing destroyed what he desired, He did not want sin and what sin has caused on the world since the fall, But his plan, No one can destroy Gods plan. If person A will not do what God wants, God can always get some one else. He can even use sinners to do his will, knowing how they will act in situations, Pharoah was proof of that.

I've heard this before and I didn't agree with it then, either.

God doesn't need to get someone else. See book of Job.

If God chooses you to do something you are going to do it. Even if you don't want to.

What about Job's precious 'free-will'? God CAUSED Job to do His Will.

This should seem familiar...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've heard this before and I didn't agree with it then, either.

God doesn't need to get someone else. See book of Job.

If God chooses you to do something you are going to do it. Even if you don't want to.

What about Job's precious 'free-will'? God CAUSED Job to do His Will.

This should seem familiar...

I have heared this before too. and I reject it like you reject mine,

Job was already a saved men, And God wanted him to do it for whatever reason, This does not prove everyone will do what God wants him to do like he a robot.

Not to mention. WHat you are saying is that the man who raped and murdered the 17 year old girl last night, did exactly what God wanted him to do. Because we can not resist Gods will..

You can not have it both ways grandpa.

If adam chose to follow Eve and Not God because that is what God willed. Then that means God is to blame for the evil that is in the world. That God is to blame for the sickness, the death, the pain and suffering, And it is not a result of the fall. and man choosing of their free will to reject Gods authority, and all these things are a result of free will choices who turned from God..

Again, I already posted the passage which proves Israel did not do what God desired.. Because they were not willing..

 

[notuptome]

Could you explain these verses for me? You dodged some of my last questions, so I am hoping you will answer these.

Proverbs 6:16-19English Standard Version (ESV)
16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.

I would argue that all of these examples above from proverbs mean people, but two I can be sure about making that claim. Verse 19, a false witness, and one who sows discord. Is this passage true? Does God hate people that do these things? Then there is this:

Psalm 5
4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Does this passage mean what it says? I can keep going, but these two make it very clear that God does hate some people. It seems to me that you are the one who does not understand who God is because in order to define God the way you define him, you have to abolish a good portion of scripture to do so. Or else you have to redefine words to mean something they clearly don't mean, which is a common practice now days.

Gods hates sin but does not hate His creation. Hell was created for the devil and his angels not for mankind. Any man going to hell goes because he will not forsake his sin. God is condemning sin and not the soul which God created. Sin is the object of condemnation not the soul. If man will not allow Christ to atone for his sin then his soul is lost because it is attached to sin.

Please show me, in context, how this passage is speaking of nations and not individuals.

Matthew 7:21-23English Standard Version (ESV)

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Again you have to go to warping the text to fit your ideas. The same way you claimed John 6 is only talking about the Apostles (which you turned around and lied about BTW). I would really like some clarity on how Jesus is addressing nations in this passage though. Please do explain.

It is a prophetic passage part of the sermon on the mount. Jesus is speaking to Israel. It is Israel who is claiming to have done great and mighty works for God. Christ knowing their hearts is telling them they are workers of lawlessness.

You can make application to individuals who falsely profess to know Christ but the context is to the nation of Israel and others who pretend to be religious like Rome and the USA.

For the cause of Christ
Roger