An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement
- Thread starter Johnny_B
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
Oh? We have to have free will to humble ourselves do we not? The pharisee and tax collector saw jesus do the same miracles. they read the same bible, Yet who chose to free themselves? the one who was broken, or the one who thought they were ok because they followed Gods law?
And you say I am offensive to you, do you read your posts to others? This is a prety mocking post there my friend..
And you say I am offensive to you, do you read your posts to others? This is a prety mocking post there my friend..
E
Do tell. Do show where I have twisted what you have said..
I do not proofread what I type. so that means I must not be a very good teacher. Wow dude, any arrogance here?
as for your belief, I feel you belief mocks God, and I am very passionate about it, just like you are yours. if thats a sin, then so be it.
I do not proofread what I type. so that means I must not be a very good teacher. Wow dude, any arrogance here?
as for your belief, I feel you belief mocks God, and I am very passionate about it, just like you are yours. if thats a sin, then so be it.
E
Now your just a liar. Who said God is not sovereign? Again, You got mad at me saying I mock you, yet you continue to do the very same thing you judged me more, talk about arrogance and hypocrisy!!
These people amaze me, That again is why I hate getting into discussions with them, they are some of the most arrogant people I have ever met.
These people amaze me, That again is why I hate getting into discussions with them, they are some of the most arrogant people I have ever met.
Feel free to explain this then.
John 15:[SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
This is a choosing among the elect that are saved as some believers will follow Him as His disciples to inherit becoming vessels unto honor while others will be rejected at the pre trib rapture to become vessels unto dishonor to be received later on in His House.
As for choosing who to save and who not to....the Father has foreknowledge of who prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the Light to be reproved of them.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
We see the Holy Ghost forbidding the missionaries from going into certain countries at a certain time only to give a vision to Paul to go to Macedonia finally and then they went.
Acts 16:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,[SUP] 7 [/SUP]After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.[SUP]10 [/SUP]And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
So that means unconditional election of Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. is false.
What the Son did on the cross can save the entire world, but only those who believe in Him can be saved by what He has done on the cross.Jesus said that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. As per the previous verses, God the Father foreknew who seeks Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the Light to be reproved of them. It should be no mystery why the Father is not drawing those that seek Him not to the Son to reveal His Son to them.
John 6:[SUP]44 [/SUP]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 11:[SUP]25 [/SUP]At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.[SUP]27 [/SUP]All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Where is the power in free will when you are a slave to sin before you were saved? It takes the intervention of the Father to get passed the blindness caused by our sinful nature to see His Son to believe in Him as our believing in Him is a work of God Himself as well.
John 15:[SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
This is a choosing among the elect that are saved as some believers will follow Him as His disciples to inherit becoming vessels unto honor while others will be rejected at the pre trib rapture to become vessels unto dishonor to be received later on in His House.
As for choosing who to save and who not to....the Father has foreknowledge of who prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the Light to be reproved of them.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.[SUP]21 [/SUP]But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
We see the Holy Ghost forbidding the missionaries from going into certain countries at a certain time only to give a vision to Paul to go to Macedonia finally and then they went.
Acts 16:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,[SUP] 7 [/SUP]After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.[SUP]10 [/SUP]And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
So that means unconditional election of Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. is false.
What the Son did on the cross can save the entire world, but only those who believe in Him can be saved by what He has done on the cross.Jesus said that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him. As per the previous verses, God the Father foreknew who seeks Him from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than come to the Light to be reproved of them. It should be no mystery why the Father is not drawing those that seek Him not to the Son to reveal His Son to them.
John 6:[SUP]44 [/SUP]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Matthew 11:[SUP]25 [/SUP]At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.[SUP]27 [/SUP]All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Where is the power in free will when you are a slave to sin before you were saved? It takes the intervention of the Father to get passed the blindness caused by our sinful nature to see His Son to believe in Him as our believing in Him is a work of God Himself as well.
You're still on the wrong path...you call others lost...mock them and ridicule doctrines that are Biblical...yet others are arrogant among other names you cast at them.
What is truly amazing is you, unfortunately, are describing the exact way you behaved toward a good brother on here. You began the assault, the name calling, distorting what was said, calling others lost, but you cannot see your own behavior.
What is truly amazing is you, unfortunately, are describing the exact way you behaved toward a good brother on here. You began the assault, the name calling, distorting what was said, calling others lost, but you cannot see your own behavior.
E
You answered your own question in the bolded highlighted portion of your post.
Yes, It does take the power of God. But just because God opens your mind does not mean you will believe, Many continue in unbelief, because as you said, they love their sin, and it does not matter what God does, they will never come to him in faith, They freely chose to reject God,
God also does not have to force them to not believe, they already have no excuse, They KNOW they are rightly condemned, they hide this truth in their hearts though (God does not hide it from them) thus God gave them over to their desires (he allowed them to live freely in their sin of their own free will, where he could have forced them to repent, Yet as paul said in Acts 14, God still blessed the unbelieving world with rain, and fruit, God still loves them, He did not reject them, he died for them also, They rejected him,
to say otherwise is to distort the true image of God.
Yes exactly. Before I knew Salvation and the Lord Jesus Christ I thought all the work was up to me. And it sort of was. It was up to me to really understand that I couldn't do it. Once I understood that but then was saved anyways I had no choice but to change my thinking on how I was saved. It was obviously the work of the Lord and not my own work.
Its like this joke;
[h=1]If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain[/h]
You could probably re-word it for arminianism and calvinism pre-salvation and post...
After we are saved we know this big secret that most people don't know. This secret is exciting and we want to tell everyone about it. But only those who have been saved understand the secret we are trying to tell. And even some of them don't understand either, it seems. Or just don't want to know or face it or something.
Its like this joke;
[h=1]If You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain[/h]
You could probably re-word it for arminianism and calvinism pre-salvation and post...
After we are saved we know this big secret that most people don't know. This secret is exciting and we want to tell everyone about it. But only those who have been saved understand the secret we are trying to tell. And even some of them don't understand either, it seems. Or just don't want to know or face it or something.
Yes God loves every soul He ever created. This is why you cannot understand Gods person. It is sin that God hates and not the souls of men.
If you did not have yourself so puffed up you might catch a glimpse of Gods mercy to man who is corrupted by sin. Every soul that is cast into hell is cast there against Gods will. It is mans will that he cleave to his sin and it will cost him eternal condemnation.
Everyone is an Arminian until they get saved then some become Calvinists.
By the way those told I never knew you are nations not individuals. Context that pesky thing that upsets proof texts.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you did not have yourself so puffed up you might catch a glimpse of Gods mercy to man who is corrupted by sin. Every soul that is cast into hell is cast there against Gods will. It is mans will that he cleave to his sin and it will cost him eternal condemnation.
Everyone is an Arminian until they get saved then some become Calvinists.
By the way those told I never knew you are nations not individuals. Context that pesky thing that upsets proof texts.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You chose to humble yourself before Christ.
You chose to believe in the Lord Jesus and the power of the cross.
You chose to repent of your ways and turn to Gods Way.
You chose to abandon your 'strengths' and turn to the strength of the Lord.
These are all some pretty awesome choices considering that most of the people in the world don't make them. How come other people don't see the benefits of making these choices that you have made?
Because they can't see it. They weren't led to see it.
1 Corinthians 13:11 [FONT="]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.[/FONT]
You chose to believe in the Lord Jesus and the power of the cross.
You chose to repent of your ways and turn to Gods Way.
You chose to abandon your 'strengths' and turn to the strength of the Lord.
These are all some pretty awesome choices considering that most of the people in the world don't make them. How come other people don't see the benefits of making these choices that you have made?
Because they can't see it. They weren't led to see it.
1 Corinthians 13:11 [FONT="]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.[/FONT]
That's quite the stretch, Armstrong. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will this ideology of yours hold up to the scrutiny of the bible. God put Adam in a deep sleep and took a rib from him and made him a help-mate.
The lengths ppl will go to twist the scriptures to fit their ideologies breaks my heart.
The lengths ppl will go to twist the scriptures to fit their ideologies breaks my heart.
Good old Adam then tried to blame Eve when he told God that the woman you gave me did give me and I did eat. Adam threw Eve under the bus. What a guy.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
First lets address the fact that you assume I want you to believe anything, that is an assumption on your part and is simply not the case, What I did do was share my thoughts on a topic brought up by you in a public chat forum, I myself am not tasked with convincing anyone of anything, this is the work of the Holy Spirit not me, if in fact the Father chooses me or anyone else as an instrument through which to work to open the heart to truth then well, but I of myself can do NOTHING, nor do I wish to indoctrinate others no matter how convinced I am of certain teachings.
I never meant this as an attack nor is it in anyway personal against you, You believe what you affirm, as do I, and to answer your question, yes I have read all the text that deal with calvanistic doctrine and quite frankly find them falling far short of "proving" its authenticity in biblical text, it is easy to view certain things through a distorted lens so to speak, I do it myself sometimes and strive not to, however I am convinced that when I pray for proper guidance and understanding of scripture it is given, and confirmed through the word itself.
my logic is not mine it is simply the proper application of biblical text in relation to certain doctrinal beliefs, which I have yet to see evidence in biblical text that properly supports such a view.
I do not in anyway think of myself as more learned then yourself, (I don't even know you) what I do understand ive been given , I in and of myself have no way to even comprehend the most basic of biblical truth, it is only by His spirit this is possible.
that being said , I never try to give authority to my words or views by saying the Holy Spirit showed me, but rather to let you know I'm not simply trying to be in opposition to different views for its own sake, but seeking truth from the source rather through the filter of mans opinions, (even my own) this in no way proves I'm right or wrong, however it should illustrate to you I'm a student of biblical text as it is given and never rely on mans opinion of what it supposedly says, if you wish we can engage in study on this topic, I would be glad to do so with you in a respectful manner, first respect for Him and His word then respect for each other no matter if we agree or not. so please accept my apology if my statement on this topic has offended you in any way, I stand by my words in my first post on this thread, and furthermore feel strongly opposed to the Calvanistic doctrine as a whole. this is where I stand and am willing to change my views if proven in error by the proper application of biblical text...
I never meant this as an attack nor is it in anyway personal against you, You believe what you affirm, as do I, and to answer your question, yes I have read all the text that deal with calvanistic doctrine and quite frankly find them falling far short of "proving" its authenticity in biblical text, it is easy to view certain things through a distorted lens so to speak, I do it myself sometimes and strive not to, however I am convinced that when I pray for proper guidance and understanding of scripture it is given, and confirmed through the word itself.
my logic is not mine it is simply the proper application of biblical text in relation to certain doctrinal beliefs, which I have yet to see evidence in biblical text that properly supports such a view.
I do not in anyway think of myself as more learned then yourself, (I don't even know you) what I do understand ive been given , I in and of myself have no way to even comprehend the most basic of biblical truth, it is only by His spirit this is possible.
that being said , I never try to give authority to my words or views by saying the Holy Spirit showed me, but rather to let you know I'm not simply trying to be in opposition to different views for its own sake, but seeking truth from the source rather through the filter of mans opinions, (even my own) this in no way proves I'm right or wrong, however it should illustrate to you I'm a student of biblical text as it is given and never rely on mans opinion of what it supposedly says, if you wish we can engage in study on this topic, I would be glad to do so with you in a respectful manner, first respect for Him and His word then respect for each other no matter if we agree or not. so please accept my apology if my statement on this topic has offended you in any way, I stand by my words in my first post on this thread, and furthermore feel strongly opposed to the Calvanistic doctrine as a whole. this is where I stand and am willing to change my views if proven in error by the proper application of biblical text...
The scripture of John 3:18-21 along with Matthew 11:25-27 & John 6:44, the Father would not bother to open the eyes to reveal His Son to them if they were preferring their evil deeds rather than come to the Light to be reproved of them. The evil deed of unbelief is included as the reason why the Father would not bother to reveal His Son.
I don't see that in the great commission. It is true that after you are saved you are elect and you are predestined in Christ that however is not the good news of the gospel. The good news is that Christ has shed His blood was buried and rose again to save those who will come to Him are be saved. The call and the provision are universal to all men. The gospel is so simple even a child can comprehend it. The possession of the gospel is specific to those who will believe.
The gospel is so simple that the rich man and the highly educated man have great difficulty comprehending it. Yet an eight year old child comes and simply trusts that Jesus loves him, will forgive his sin and give him eternal life. Only after folks get saved do they go about to construct elaborate and exclusive systems of religion to comfort their ego.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The gospel is so simple that the rich man and the highly educated man have great difficulty comprehending it. Yet an eight year old child comes and simply trusts that Jesus loves him, will forgive his sin and give him eternal life. Only after folks get saved do they go about to construct elaborate and exclusive systems of religion to comfort their ego.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
Yet if you never come to weakness, humble yourself, and empty yourself, you will never make one of those choices, let alone all of them.
a strong man will chose to continue in religion or sin,
yes, for eternity it is a wise choice, but. Can not boast of it. The strength of our flesh says we are ok, we do not need God. The that has to be Brian Ken in order to repent, that is what God does, sadly, not everyone he does that to will repent,
all we we need to prove that is to look at those in church who have been broken, yet still refuse to repent
a strong man will chose to continue in religion or sin,
yes, for eternity it is a wise choice, but. Can not boast of it. The strength of our flesh says we are ok, we do not need God. The that has to be Brian Ken in order to repent, that is what God does, sadly, not everyone he does that to will repent,
all we we need to prove that is to look at those in church who have been broken, yet still refuse to repent