annihilation or conscious torment????

[Muzungu256]

hi!!!!!!!! i decided to heat things up (ba-dum-tshh) today with a cheerful and hot topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since universalism is out the window............ which view do you personally think is more scriptural???????? annihilation or eternal conscious torment??????? i think both views have good verses like isaiah 66:24 for annihilation and for the ect view rev 20:10 is good because it says the false prophet and beast are not were..............
or could both be right if God decides so???????? many people dont know the gospel but thats also no excuse because romans says we are without excuse............ thats how God sees it i think.......

i know annihilationism is minority view but some say its still under orthodoxy some say its heresy me personally from plain reading from scriptures without anyone telling me anything i found annihilation in the old and eternal torment in the new which is weird............. why didnt God tell adam or anyone in the old testament including the nations about torment in hell............. that does seem strnage to me thats why i say in the old i got annihilation but in the new i clearly got eternal torment because Jesus said its forever and that better to pluck an eye so we know its bad................ why would Jesus say dont fear him who can only kill the body but not the soul if its the same thing???????????

 

[Marano]

I'm glad you don't hold to universalism any more, but are you so easily swayed by what others say that you just change your views like that, instead of letting scripture speak for itself? As for the op, I believe torment in the lake of fire is eternal, the bible clearly says: [h=1]Revelation 14:11King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So I go with that. [/FONT]

 

[Muzungu256]

i know marano i made a thread about that im sorry!!!!!!!!!!!! but as i said i abandoned it because i found out aionios means forever........ sadly i was duped by someone who showed me that aion means age and not necessarily eternal and i also read 1tim4:10 and romans 5:18 and stuff......... so you can add that up hahahaa!!!!!!!! but yes im over it now im sorry guys i got duped........... but its fine i let that person have it after i found out

 

[valiant]

hi!!!!!!!! i decided to heat things up (ba-dum-tshh) today with a cheerful and hot topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since universalism is out the window............ which view do you personally think is more scriptural???????? annihilation or eternal conscious torment??????? i think both views have good verses like isaiah 66:24 for annihilation and for the ect view rev 20:10 is good because it says the false prophet and beast are not were..............
or could both be right if God decides so???????? many people dont know the gospel but thats also no excuse because romans says we are without excuse............ thats how God sees it i think.......

i know annihilationism is minority view but some say its still under orthodoxy some say its heresy me personally from plain reading from scriptures without anyone telling me anything i found annihilation in the old and eternal torment in the new which is weird............. why didnt God tell adam or anyone in the old testament including the nations about torment in hell............. that does seem strnage to me thats why i say in the old i got annihilation but in the new i clearly got eternal torment because Jesus said its forever and that better to pluck an eye so we know its bad................ why would Jesus say dont fear him who can only kill the body but not the soul if its the same thing???????????

Fear Him Who can DESTROY both body and soul in Gehenna

 

[sparkman]

hi!!!!!!!! i decided to heat things up (ba-dum-tshh) today with a cheerful and hot topic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

since universalism is out the window............ which view do you personally think is more scriptural???????? annihilation or eternal conscious torment??????? i think both views have good verses like isaiah 66:24 for annihilation and for the ect view rev 20:10 is good because it says the false prophet and beast are not were..............
or could both be right if God decides so???????? many people dont know the gospel but thats also no excuse because romans says we are without excuse............ thats how God sees it i think.......

i know annihilationism is minority view but some say its still under orthodoxy some say its heresy me personally from plain reading from scriptures without anyone telling me anything i found annihilation in the old and eternal torment in the new which is weird............. why didnt God tell adam or anyone in the old testament including the nations about torment in hell............. that does seem strnage to me thats why i say in the old i got annihilation but in the new i clearly got eternal torment because Jesus said its forever and that better to pluck an eye so we know its bad................ why would Jesus say dont fear him who can only kill the body but not the soul if its the same thing???????????

John Stott taught annihilationism. I understand FF Bruce, Philip Edgecomb Hughes (who wrote a good commentary on Hebrews), and NT Wright (I have a lot of disagreements with him) are sympathetic toward it, but I'm not sure if they believe it.

I think it's an acceptable view. I was a dogmatic annihilationist but see either view in Scripture.

However, I definitely don't believe in soul sleep and many annihilationists, including the heretical Armstrongites (Restored Church of God, United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Living Church of God) are soul sleep guys, as well as the Seventh Day Adventists. SDAs go so far as to claim mankind has no spiritual component.

This is tangentially related to why the SDA church are ok with abortion. They don't believe human life begins until the baby draws its first breath, so abortion isn't murder.

 

[Muzungu256]

John Stott taught annihilationism. I understand FF Bruce, Philip Edgecomb Hughes (who wrote a good commentary on Hebrews), and NT Wright (I have a lot of disagreements with him) are sympathetic toward it, but I'm not sure if they believe it.

I think it's an acceptable view. I was a dogmatic annihilationist but see either view in Scripture.

However, I definitely don't believe in soul sleep and many annihilationists, including the heretical Armstrongites (Restored Church of God, United Church of God, Philadelphia Church of God, Living Church of God) are soul sleep guys, as well as the Seventh Day Adventists. SDAs go so far as to claim mankind has no spiritual component.

This is tangentially related to why the SDA church are ok with abortion. They don't believe human life begins until the baby draws its first breath, so abortion isn't murder.

i went to google to look for soul sleep i dont believe in it either its stupid with all due respect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if its true why did moses and elijah show up with Jesus?????????? if they werent resurrected................

 

[garee]

I'm glad you don't hold to universalism any more, but are you so easily swayed by what others say that you just change your views like that, instead of letting scripture speak for itself? As for the op, I believe torment in the lake of fire is eternal, the bible clearly says: Revelation 14:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So I go with that.

Yes forever and ever they are dead never to rise to no spirit life again.

 

[Muzungu256]

Yes forever and ever they are dead never to rise to no spirit life again.

with all due respect sir it says no rest day nor night and torment............. not dead forever

 

[valiant]

I'm glad you don't hold to universalism any more, but are you so easily swayed by what others say that you just change your views like that, instead of letting scripture speak for itself? As for the op, I believe torment in the lake of fire is eternal, the bible clearly says: Revelation 14:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So I go with that.

it was common in those days to examine men under torture. These were being so examined. But notice that only the smoke of their torment arose for ever and ever. They had long ceased being tortured.

And they have no rest day or night, those worshippers of the beast --. The same phrase in the Greek is used of the Cherubim in chapter 5. They also have no rest day or night as they worship God. So it simply means continual worship. It is the English translators who make it sound worse,

 

[Muzungu256]

it was common in those days to examine men under torture. These were being so examined. But notice that only the smoke of their torment arose for ever and ever. They had long ceased being tortured.

And they have no rest day or night, those worshippers of the beast --. The same phrase in the Greek is used of the Cherubim in chapter 5. They also have no rest day or night as they worship God. So it simply means continual worship. It is the English translators who make it sound worse,

but isnt it also true that for there to be smoke ascending up there needs to be something burning????????????

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

it was common in those days to examine men under torture. These were being so examined. But notice that only the smoke of their torment arose for ever and ever. They had long ceased being tortured.

And they have no rest day or night, those worshippers of the beast --. The same phrase in the Greek is used of the Cherubim in chapter 5. They also have no rest day or night as they worship God. So it simply means continual worship. It is the English translators who make it sound worse,

but isnt it also true that for there to be smoke ascending up there needs to be something burning????????????

Yes the means of their torture was kept burning as a sign of what had been. Compare the fires of Gehenna in Isaiah 66.24.

Tortured in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb suggests an end to their torment is to be expected, at least to me.

 

[Magenta]

but isnt it also true that for there to be smoke ascending up there needs to be something burning????????????

DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN

Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) -"Thou shalt surely DIE."

There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND: for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

Paul says, commenting upon the Adamic sentence (Rom. 6:23) --

• "The wages of sin is death."
  "By one man’s offence death reigned" (Rom 5:17).

And Rom. 6:21 --

• "The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."

-- not eternal living torment, but DEATH.

• "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH" (James 1:15).

The penalty of death and destruction is both just and merciful, the penalty of eternal torture is neither just nor merciful.

THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED

Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.

The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --

"Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat.
"And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."

But here again we note that in the Bible it is not eternal torment that is threatened but destruction, which is something very different.

In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --
"Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."
Jesus says (Matt. 10:28) that God is able to --

• "DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."

And Paul told the Philippians (3:19) regarding the fleshly-minded --

• "Their end is destruction."

Peter uses as strong a word as possible when he says (2 Pet. 2:12) --

• "These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."

David declares (Psa. 37:20) --

• "The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

And Malachi 4:1 --

• "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Psalm 145:20 --

• "The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."

THE PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED IS FUTURE

It will have been noted from many of the foregoing quotations that the judgment and punishment of the wicked is connected with a special day IN THE FUTURE, when Christ will return from heaven.

This is important, for it clearly demonstrates the error of the conception of immediate reward or punishment at death. In Matt. 16:27, Jesus says --"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, THEN shall he reward every man according to his works."

He says in John 5:27-29 --

• "The Father hath given him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment . . . for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation."

Paul declares (2 Tim. 4:1) --

• "He SHALL judge the quick and the dead AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom."

And again (1 Cor. 4:5) --

• "Judge nothing before the time, UNTIL THE LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and THEN shall every man have praise of God."

And Peter (2 Pet. 3:7) speaks of a FUTURE --

• "Day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The word here translated "perdition" is many times translated "destruction." The future aspect of this judgment, the fact that it is always connected with the day appointed when Jesus will return from heaven to judge and destroy, should be well noted throughout. Paul says (Acts 17:31) --

• "God hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained."

Malachi says of the same day, and of the destiny of the wicked (4:1-3) --

• "For, behold, the day COMETH, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
  The wicked . . . shall be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous IN THE DAY that I shall do this, saith the Lord."

Not eternal torture at death, but complete burning destruction in the day of judgment is the consistent scriptural picture.

One of the biggest inconsistencies of the popular belief is that fact that resurrection and judgment at the last day must be either flatly denied, or else it comes after centuries of bliss in heaven or torture in hell.

Where is the necessity or reason for either resurrection or judgment at the return of Christ if the dead go to their reward at death? It would not only be unnecessary -- it would be plain absurdity!

RESURRECTION

Scriptures say there will be a resurrection, and that it is necessary. We find the day of judgment always associated with resurrection of the dead, and we find resurrection from the grave held out as the only hope of life after death.

Paul devoted 1st Cor. 15 to refuting the contention that there will be no resurrection. He says (vs. 16-18) --

• "If the dead rise not . . . then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

And in v. 32, after describing the perils he encounters, he says --

• "What advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?"

His argument is meaningless if men go to heaven at death for their reward. But Paul’s whole hope of reward was centered in resurrection of the last day, as he says in Phil. 3:8-11 --

• "I count all things but loss . . . I have suffered the loss of all things . . . if by any means I might attain unto the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD."

Jesus said (John 6:39) that all those whom the Father had given him he would --

• "Raise up at the last day."

And in Luke 14:14, he declares that the righteous --

• "Shall be recompensed AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST."

And nowhere do we find either reward or punishment promised before then.
http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm

 

[MattforJesus]

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus pointed out their crime was that they did not love people,and would not help them out with their needs,so it is the same as if they did it unto Jesus.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

 

[Muzungu256]

magenta do you believe in soul sleep or did i misoverstand??????????????? how do you explain moses and elijah showing up and jesus saying to the thief he will be in paradise today............... paul also says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and how he wants to depart and go be with the Lord..............

 

[Magenta]

John 3:16 is probably the most widely known, most recognized, and well loved Scripture there is. It states that God so loved the world that He have His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That word perish means to utterly destroy (see Strong's concordance, word #622). Unlike the first death, the second death is meant to last forever after. There are a multitude of Scriptures that attest to the fact that the wages of sin is death. Jesus told us to fear Him Who could destroy both body and soul in hell, whereas many people will claim that the soul is immortal, despite the fact that Scripture plainly states that only God is immortal. We attain to life ever after through faith in His righteous blood. Eternal life is awarded ONLY to those with faith. All others pass into the second death, having had their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. The dead know nothing. These are Scriptural truths, faithfully recorded and passed along to us through the prophets and apostles of old.

* * * * * * * * *
There are many many many Scriptures that attest to the fact that death is the final everlasting punishment for the person who refuses to accept the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ as a covering for their sin.

The lost perish and are no more.

Strong's concordance word #622 = Perish

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι

Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the
resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).


622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but
rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has
eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Please, note again: Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The Greek word is olethron: destruction. From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the
One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for
fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in
Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ
will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.
How can it be any clearer?

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.
The lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead!

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

In fact, Jesus Christ has already overcome death.
Death and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Magenta]

magenta do you believe in soul sleep or did i misoverstand??????????????? how do you explain moses and elijah showing up and jesus saying to the thief he will be in paradise today............... paul also says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and how he wants to depart and go be with the Lord..............

Jesus used sleep as a metaphor for death. In those cases, though, He was speaking of the first death, and not the second. It seems you need to spend time in God's Word. These truths will not all be revealed to you at once... and there are some things that remain a mystery, for we see as through a glass darkly. Try to keep it simple if you can. For instance, God is the author and giver of life. All power and authority has been given to Jesus, Who holds the keys of life and death. He is the light and life of men; in Him we live and move and have our being. If you believe on Him, you pass from death to life. If you do not believe on Him, following the resurrection and judgement of all, you pass into the second death, which is punishment ever after. People who say death is not punishment baffle me. Seriously! God said that is what the wages of sin are.

 

[Muzungu256]

the second death interesting.................... good post magenta.........

 

[trofimus]

My personal opinion (I am not saying it clearly is so):

1. There are many verses in the Bible about "eternal life" vs " or "eternal death" or "life" vs "death".

2. There are some verses about the torment in hell or in the lake of fire where the hell will be thrown in the end.


My personal conclusion is, that there will be some torment for a time (maybe "ageous") and then the destruction/death.

I would gladly welcome the universalism - that all will be saved from hell after some definite amount of time, but even though our hearts would want it, there is nothing in the Bible about it and it would contradict all said above.

 

[valiant]

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

They go into 'everlasting punishment', in other words, the destruction of body and soul in Gehenna.,

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

.

Outer darkness signifies no light or life. They weep and gnash their teeth at the prospect.

Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

But 1) this was a parable.
2) even if we take it literally it only refers to temporary torment. It is pre-hell. Some will suffer many stripes, some few stripes.

.Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Luk 6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

They hunger, and weep prior to destruction

 

[astropolis]

I would gladly welcome the universalism - that all will be saved from hell after some definite amount of time, but even though our hearts would want it, there is nothing in the Bible about it and it would contradict all said above.

I'm very doubtful about the "eternal" idea applied to punishment. Firstly it doesn't sit well with the idea of a loving God. Secondly Jesus was speaking to a jewish audience who firmly believed that "gehennim" was limited in time, and never challenges that idea. Thirdly some of the "ever and ever" passages seem to read more like "To the end of the present age" in the Koine.

That's why I think there is a good universalist case.