Another requirement for salvation; Not that simple

[mailmandan]

If you're not against works,
WHY DOES IT SOUND LIKE YOU ARE.

if it walks like a duck
talks like a duck.....
maybe it IS a duck.

So why does the word WORKS scare you???

It may "sound" like I'm against works to someone who teaches salvation by works, but I don't hear those who clearly teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works accusing of that. Yet I hear certain people constantly harping on works as if they do save us. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. hmm... The word WORKS does not scare me at all, yet it's critical that we understand we are saved FOR works and NOT BY works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[preacher4truth]

It may "sound" like I'm against works to someone who teaches salvation by works, but I don't hear those who clearly teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works accusing of that. Yet I hear certain people constantly harping on works as if they do save us. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. hmm... The word WORKS does not scare me at all, yet it's critical that we understand we are saved FOR works and NOT BY works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Just a guess, but these workers have nary a chance for any good works when they're arguing on here some 20 hours per day about their good works.

 

[Grace777x70]

It may "sound" like I'm against works to someone who teaches salvation by works, but I don't hear those who clearly teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works accusing of that. Yet I hear certain people constantly harping on works as if they do save us. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. hmm... The word WORKS does not scare me at all, yet it's critical that we understand we are saved FOR works and NOT BY works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Works to be saved or to maintain being saved is what people are against because it is an anti-Christ belief system.

Good works originating from Christ in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace of our loving Father and Lord for them are the ones that he has prepared for us to walk in.

Ephesians 2:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The works-based mindset is Old Covenant thinking and this false belief system has been trying to take Christ's work on the cross and resurrection out of the picture since the start of the gospel.

We can see this in the Jews attempts of those that say we are to walk by the Old Covenant and it was refuted.

Acts 15:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

[SUP]6 [/SUP] The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

Acts 15:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

 

[posthuman]

Just a guess, but these workers have nary a chance for any good works when they're arguing on here some 20 hours per day about their good works.

i'm often wondering and considering what would be a "good" way to interact with such a situation that you describe.

i did conclude that lifting up Christ, praising Him and what He has done, and who He is for us, is usually a good strategy. i came to this when i realized there is never a 'bad' time or place to praise God!

what we encounter in some discussions is often "death" in some way ((i.e. "the carnal mind is death" Rom. 8:6))- or danger of it, at least. so trying in every case to bring into that picture the One who is Life, the One whom to know is life, seems like a really rational way of approaching things, if your aim is to "do good" -- He said that the will of God, and the work of God ((which is always good)) is to believe the Son: and if i believe Him, then He is to be praised!!

anyway that's as much advice as i have on the subject to give; y'all can have it all!! free.
do you find yourself in BDF discouraged by what you read around you? a pragmatic thing to do is this: praise God!!

 

[FranC]

Just a guess, but these workers have nary a chance for any good works when they're arguing on here some 20 hours per day about their good works.

HOW do you KNOW I'm here 20 hours a day???


LOL

You're too much.

 

[DJ2]

It may "sound" like I'm against works to someone who teaches salvation by works, but I don't hear those who clearly teach that salvation is by grace through faith, not works accusing of that. Yet I hear certain people constantly harping on works as if they do save us. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. hmm... The word WORKS does not scare me at all, yet it's critical that we understand we are saved FOR works and NOT BY works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

You say obedience is the natural outcome of salvation, that when one becomes "saved" they will be inclined to obey. That their obedience is a work after salvation not a work toward salvation. Is this correct?

 

[FranC]

i'm often wondering and considering what would be a "good" way to interact with such a situation that you describe.

i did conclude that lifting up Christ, praising Him and what He has done, and who He is for us, is usually a good strategy. i came to this when i realized there is never a 'bad' time or place to praise God!

what we encounter in some discussions is often "death" in some way ((i.e. "the carnal mind is death" Rom. 8:6))- or danger of it, at least. so trying in every case to bring into that picture the One who is Life, the One whom to know is life, seems like a really rational way of approaching things, if your aim is to "do good" -- He said that the will of God, and the work of God ((which is always good)) is to believe the Son: and if i believe Him, then He is to be praised!!

anyway that's as much advice as i have on the subject to give; y'all can have it all!! free.
do you find yourself in BDF discouraged by what you read around you? a pragmatic thing to do is this: praise God!!

Hi PH

Preacher4Truth sure does like to spread rumors around.
Like my HUSBAND would ALLOW me to be here 20 hours a day!!!

Anyway, I agree with you.
Praise God Always.
Everything you do for God is a WORK.
If some can't understand this,It's not my fault.
I work for God not the enemy.
It's a simple concept.

See you around...
PRAISE GOD!

 

[DJ2]

HOW do you KNOW I'm here 20 hours a day???


LOL

You're too much.

Because he's on 21 hours a day and knows all.

 

[preacher4truth]

Because he's on 21 hours a day and knows all.

That's great, got a good laugh out of that! Thanks!

 

[FranC]

You say obedience is the natural outcome of salvation, that when one becomes "saved" they will be inclined to obey. That their obedience is a work after salvation not a work toward salvation. Is this correct?

You ask a VERY INTELLIGENT question.

Of course, MMD and Grace and some Others here, NEVER ask or have asked or will ask this question.
I'm sure YOU know the answer, as do I.

§But, alas, better to argue about it even though it's what JESUS said to do.
John 15:14

 

[FranC]

Because he's on 21 hours a day and knows all.

LOL

Oh yes.
You're WAY TOO INTELLIGENT!

 

[FranC]

That's great, got a good laugh out of that! Thanks!

Not so funny.
You should watch what you say....

 

[FlSnookman7]

You say obedience is the natural outcome of salvation, that when one becomes "saved" they will be inclined to obey. That their obedience is a work after salvation not a work toward salvation. Is this correct?

I can only speak for myself but my good works or fruit are a result of me being saved, they come from Christ Jesus who lives in me and they are not of myself. I know this because before I was saved I was a very selfish person and would never have ever thought to do any good works at all. That is understandable as I was a carnal being before salvation.

Again, maybe some people were decent, caring and giving individuals prior to salvation, I however was not. In a way I suppose it is easier for those of us who were changed so dramatically to understand the true depth of God's amazing grace. Of all the people I ever knew none was more deserving of hell than I was. (I know, I know without Jesus we all deserve hell). I guess i'm just saying that I know it was Jesus and Jesus alone that saved me and nothing I did or even tried to do had anything to do with it.

While I am now a completely new creation in Christ, the righteousness of God in Christ and in fact as Jesus was here and now (1 John 4:17) I still am learning and growing in my faith. The fruits I produce are for His glory and pleasure not my own. They neither keep me saved nor add to my salvation. Jesus plus zero saved me and keeps me saved as just as He promised He would.

Having at first been a "red letter Christian" myself (well 1st a catholic lol but thats a whole other story) I know how easy it is to simply "go by what Jesus said". That however is a mistake in that Jesus gave Paul His gospel for the gentiles. He paid the price we could never pay and to say it was insufficient is I believe a lack of faith and in the long run harmful. That is why I so strongly proclaim the gospel of Jesus to all who would listen. My Lord and Savior paid the price for our salvation in full. When people say otherwise it hurts me because they are not receiving what Jesus so freely gave.

If I ever come across and short or mean spirited I apologize. I know those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior are saved even if they need to put conditions on their salvation. When all is said and done we are one body and we should strive to love one another even (especially?) when we disagree.

 

[mailmandan]

You say obedience is the natural outcome of salvation, that when one becomes "saved" they will be inclined to obey. That their obedience is a work after salvation not a work toward salvation. Is this correct?

Man is saved through faith, not works, and multiple acts of obedience which follow "having been saved through faith" are works after salvation, not works to obtain salvation.

 

[Muzungu256]

1 corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

it even says dont be deceived......... dont let nobody tell u that people who do that enter the kingdom........... i already know there is some way to twist this verse too so i decided to post it and see how its twisted, just out of interest............. there always seems to be a way............

oh ye the not of works thing, im pretty sure that paul means circumcision which is a big theme in the new testament like in acts 15:1 and galatians 1...... u guys push this not of works thing so far its like its better to sin than not to sin, just in case u dont get self righteous and by pushing it so far u end up throwing away verses like the one i posted and gal 5:21.

 

[FranC]

Man is saved through faith, not works, and multiple acts of obedience which follow "having been saved through faith" are works after salvation, not works to obtain salvation.

Do you know somebody here who is not saved?
So NOW WHAT???

I wish I 'd saved that post where you came right out and said that WORKS ARE NOT NECESSARY.

If you didn't say that and I got it wrong, then just say right now that works are necessary.

EASY.

But we all know you won't.
Except for those like yourself who don't like to do any works.
But they sure do like to think they're saved!

I'm starting to like Mathew 7:15-16
There are many false prophets running loose in here, and we will know them by their fruit.

They REFUSE to speak the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, etc. preferring to make up their own.

Here is what the bible says about that horrible word you're so afraid of... WORKS:


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Galatians 6:9-10

Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.




Matthew 5:38-48

"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.




Luke 6:27-36

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.




1 Peter 3:8-13

To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. For, "THE ONE WHO DESIRES LIFE, TO LOVE AND SEE GOOD DAYS, MUST KEEP HIS TONGUE FROM EVIL AND HIS LIPS FROM SPEAKING DECEIT.


Psalm 34:12-16

Who is the man who desires life And loves length of days that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil And your lips from speaking deceit. Depart from evil and do good; Seek peace and pursue it.



Hebrews 13:16

And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.




1 Peter 2:20

For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.



1 Peter 3:17

For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.



John 5:28-29

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.



Luke 6:35

"But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.




Romans 2:5-11

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;




1 Timothy 6:17-19

Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.





2 Timothy 2:20-21

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.



James 2:14-21

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?




James 3:13

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.





2 Corinthians 9:8

And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;


Acts 9:36

Now in Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which translated in Greek is called Dorcas); this woman was abounding with deeds of kindness and charity which she continually did.




Philippians 2:12-13

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.





Colossians 1:10-12

so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.




Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.




2 Timothy 2:21

Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.



2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.



1 Peter 2:13-15

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance
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There are many more if these are not sufficient.

It seems to me that if one wants to follow Jesus, he should do what Jesus and those He left in charge SAY TO DO with no fear of repeating it or affirming it.

I do wonder where this fear of works comes from??

 

[Bronson]

My kids have seen many churches.
I NEVER said that to them.

So the very Death of Jesus that SAVED you is now a sacrilegious scene?
I can't agree and I don't really understand it, but it's a personal opinion and one that I must respect.

And how do you figure Jesus was nailed to a tree?
Sometimes a tree was used, but most times it was a cross.
That's why it was called a crucifixion.
Because it made a cross.
Oh. Sometimes it was even shaped like an x.

The power of Jesus is in the resurrection.
There are many paintings and scenes of that too.

But if the Death didn't occur, neither would the sacrifice have occured.

(you need both, really)

1. Crucifixion is not mentioned in the Bible...The crowed did not call out crucify him, they called Kill him.
2. why would the Jews or the Romans fro that matter bother making a cross for a criminal, they didn’t. The manner was to nail or tie the hands above the heads, and then if the person so killed was not dead by sundown (Jewish law) they would have their legs broken so that they would sink down and collapsing the diaphragm and suffocating the victim.

Although these incidents are the most important of the Christen teachings, Christendom gets them wrong to a great extent and include the cross which since Egyptian times has been a pagan symbol.

Just look at the nativity scene and see how wrong it is displayed. Satan does not want any truth involved in the story of Christ or in Jesus Heavenly invisible Father.

The trouble with effigies is that people begin to pray to the plaster cast effigy and are not praying to Jehovah God through Jesus, and you can ask for the Holy Spirit from Jehovah but not from Jesus as it is Jehovah's active force, not a persona or different identity.

If loving God and his Son is a spiritual thing, why do you need paintings and statues to keep them in your mind. Do you have to have a photo of your parents when you write to them or talk to them on the phone?

It is perfectly all right to use drawings of scenes from the Bible to show children or even adults the meaning of the text, but this is in line with learning and not for purposes of worshipping the drawing.

You say "If the Death didn’t occur," but don’t you believe that Jesus is God so God died or didn’t die as the trinity tries to have some believe?

Jehovah is a logical God, the very epitome of logic, so why would he put something like the trinity into simple faith.

I went to a Catholic College for a short time and I was told "Don't try to work out the trinity, just accept it" This belies the Bible instruction on the Bible itself :

All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+ 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 3 timothy16, 17

 

[preacher4truth]

1. Crucifixion is not mentioned in the Bible..

Accept for all four Gospels mentioning it, and the meaning to impale on a tree or on a cross.

 

[FranC]

1. Crucifixion is not mentioned in the Bible...The crowed did not call out crucify him, they called Kill him.
2. why would the Jews or the Romans fro that matter bother making a cross for a criminal, they didn’t. The manner was to nail or tie the hands above the heads, and then if the person so killed was not dead by sundown (Jewish law) they would have their legs broken so that they would sink down and collapsing the diaphragm and suffocating the victim.

Although these incidents are the most important of the Christen teachings, Christendom gets them wrong to a great extent and include the cross which since Egyptian times has been a pagan symbol.

Just look at the nativity scene and see how wrong it is displayed. Satan does not want any truth involved in the story of Christ or in Jesus Heavenly invisible Father.

The trouble with effigies is that people begin to pray to the plaster cast effigy and are not praying to Jehovah God through Jesus, and you can ask for the Holy Spirit from Jehovah but not from Jesus as it is Jehovah's active force, not a persona or different identity.

If loving God and his Son is a spiritual thing, why do you need paintings and statues to keep them in your mind. Do you have to have a photo of your parents when you write to them or talk to them on the phone?

It is perfectly all right to use drawings of scenes from the Bible to show children or even adults the meaning of the text, but this is in line with learning and not for purposes of worshipping the drawing.

You say "If the Death didn’t occur," but don’t you believe that Jesus is God so God died or didn’t die as the trinity tries to have some believe?

Jehovah is a logical God, the very epitome of logic, so why would he put something like the trinity into simple faith.

I went to a Catholic College for a short time and I was told "Don't try to work out the trinity, just accept it" This belies the Bible instruction on the Bible itself :

All Scripture is inspired of God+ and beneficial for teaching,+ for reproving, for setting things straight,* for disciplining in righteousness,+ 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. 3 timothy16, 17

Very interesting post Bronson and I'll reply to all.
But I'm an hour ahead of you and it'll have to wait till Tomorrow.

I don't understand your 7th paragraph about God dying.
In the meantime, if you'd care to say it in a different way.

Night.

 

[DJ2]

Man is saved through faith, not works, and multiple acts of obedience which follow "having been saved through faith" are works after salvation, not works to obtain salvation.

Mankind is saved through faith that leads to action, not faith alone. Faith, no matter how sincere or in what object will save on its own. No matter how deeply you trust in the grace of God or how loudly you proclaim Him as Lord you are lost if you do not obey.

We may differ on what is needed to obey but not the need to obey. This is where those of the "trust only" sects are blind. They have accepted the false notion that the Bible teaches "faith only" and now must battle with the obvious problem with the "flow and form" of the Bible being an example of rewarded obedience. Not to mention the history of the church being one of obedience to the commands of Christ for salvation.

I deeply believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. It is not a good story, it is fact. His resurrection is our hope for life after death. My faith is not voided by accepting that I am commanded to obey His words in order to partake in His resurrection. It is the faith that walks around walls, it is the faith that makes you pick up your cross and the faith that says "where you lead I will follow". It is those that obey who are the sheep and that obedience to the shepherd is what saves.

Faith without works is dead. Not just "mental assent" but any faith that believes short of obedience is dead.