Apostle Paul On Tongues In 1 Corinthians

[notuptome]

We can see Paul in Acts "taking up a serpent" and he just brushed it into the fire. There have been many testimonies of people having drunk something by accident that did them no harm.

Those people that are handling snakes and drinking poison on purpose are being presumptuous and they die!

The words of Jesus in Mark 16 only come true to "those that believe".

The Greek scholars - the "ones" that say the long ending in Mark is "likely" added on is by those that don't believe in the gifts of the Spirit are for today - especially tongues - it's funny how that always goes and seems to be the case...eh?

Unfortunately I'm thinking Roger that if the Lord Himself walked in your room one night and told you that the gifts of the Spirit are still for today and they are meant to bless you and to help others - you would still tell Him they aren't and that you don't believe it.

First of all the word of God is true whether you believe it or not.

There are only three gifts that have ceased. The rest continue but tongues were never for the Gentiles but for unsaved Jews. Do you believe that tongues are human languages or unknowable to human minds?

1 Cor 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

The this people in the verse is Israel not the Gentiles. It is also clear that the tongues are human languages in this passage. Paul is bringing to mind the captivity of Israel in the past.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

I know!! Welcome to the Club.

Ummm, maybe there is no answer, soon that is what I will have to think. Hehe!

 

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by UnderGrace

What I cannot understand is how a language you cannot understand is edifying?

I asked same question on a few other threads and didnt get answers . .

.

Simple...it edifies your spirit and your mind too as revelation comes to us by the Holy Spirit. This is spiritually discerned and it does not originate from the natural mind of man. 1 Cor. 14:4

It also makes us to speak mysteries to the Father and Lord. These mysteries can be the will of God for ourselves or others in the body of Christ. This is not something we can understand with our natural mind. This has to be experienced in order to "see" it. 1 Cor. 14:2

It is the exact same way for salvation in Christ. Talk with an atheist about Jesus Christ and they look at you as if you came from a different planet. Why is this? They have no spiritual understanding about Christ. The things of God do not come to our mind with understanding - they are revealed to our spirit and then our mind gets renewed to the truth.

We are completely reliant on the Holy spirit to reveal the things of God to us as our natural mind cannot understand it without His revelation in any area.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[DP]

and that's just the thing, isn't it

there is no one as adamant in believing that tongues have ceased...or that God is actually not human and therefore does not behave the way we think He should, as those who want to CONTROL everything around them

must be an awful feeling

Another lunatic post...

 

[RickyZ]

What I cannot understand is how a language you cannot understand is edifying?

Again, pray with your mind while you pray in the spirit. Is it not edifying that while I pray for the things I know about my mother in my mind, the Holy Spirit thru my lips prays for the things I do not know about her? Is it not edifying to know that even tho what I pray in my mind may or not be the will of God, my lips thru the Spirit are praying the will of God? Is it not edifying to know that instead of questioning God, you are stepping out in faith to do something He asks you to do? That's the whole point of faith - you don't have to understand everything. Do you understand how Jesus healed people? Yet you take it in faith that He did. And most often that step of faith is what brings understanding.

 

[DP]

Because the sign was designed for those with no faith ,as a froward generation, the generation of Adam it increased the suffering of a Jew that had not become born again but was trusting in his outward flesh as if God who has no beginning of days or end of life was a Jew ..

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore "hear the word of the LORD", ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.Isa 28:11

Prophecy, hearing the Lord is for those who do believe, called the generation of Christ. The sign would not effect them as to suffering . The prophecy is two fold, two purposes . One as a sign to confirm unbelief no faith , the other(prophecy) to produce faith the unseen.

The "another tongue" God was warning them about there in Isaiah 28 was the language of the Assyrians and Babylonians He would allow to come upon Jerusalem in that time. It is not... about the cloven tongue of Pentecost.

 

[RickyZ]

Mark 16: 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe

These "signs and wonders and new tongues" indeed followed the Apostles but it did not continue.

Uhm, then wouldn't Mark 16 say 'these signs and wonder will follow them apostles'? No, it says those who believe. Do you believe? Well there ya go..!

 

[Grace777x70]

First of all the word of God is true whether you believe it or not.

There are only three gifts that have ceased. The rest continue but tongues were never for the Gentiles but for unsaved Jews. Do you believe that tongues are human languages or unknowable to human minds?

1 Cor 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

The this people in the verse is Israel not the Gentiles. It is also clear that the tongues are human languages in this passage. Paul is bringing to mind the captivity of Israel in the past.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I believe the tongues can be of human origin and of angelic origin as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:1.

There are two manifestations of tongues - private for talking with the Lord 1 Cor 14:2 and then the tongues and interpretations for the others to be blessed by.

We keep telling you the same thing over and over again Roger. The people in Cornelius's house, the Ephesians and the Corinthians were all gentiles and I'm sure that you would still deny the gifts of the Spirit if Jesus Himself walked in and told you differently.

Anyway this is a completely useless discussion with you as you continually have rejected that tongues are not for today which is complete foolishness and is a man-made tradition which has infiltrated the body of Christ to rob her of a great blessing of the Lord.

People praying in the spirit/tongues are the fastest growing part of the Christians worldwide - and it is for a good reason too. Ignore it if you chose to Roger but God will prevail with those that follow Him.

There is enough scripture posted in this the read to answer those that are honestly seeking the truth. I will not be answering any more as this is just a complete waste of time.

I do like your solid understanding on the grace of Christ in the gospel for salvation. You are solid on that area and we are blessed to have you refute the "law-keepers" as well as those that try to "maintain" their own righteousness and not depend on Christ's finished work alone.

 

[DP]

Hi garee,

I think that Strong's is saying that both words refer to the same thing and refer to both foretelling and forth-telling. "Declaring the purposes of God", for example, is no different from "to declare a thing that can only be known by divine revelation". And the foretelling of future events is common to both. It's the same idea in the form of a verb on the one hand and of the noun on the other.

We can agree to disagree though. Our salvation isn't dependent on getting this right. What you quote does make it quite clear though, I think.

God bless,

kohelet

Truly the world prophesy is used as a verb and can simply mean to teach or declare God's Word. It doesn't have to mean prophesying about some future event affecting the Church or some special direction for a Church. The way Apostle Paul is using it in 1 Corinthians means to teach, because he points out what one is prophesying (teaching) is to be understood.

 

[RickyZ]

i asked same question on a few other threads and didnt get answers . . .

To receive answers, you must be willing to hear them. You have not heard the answers you have received repeatedly.

 

[DP]

Ummm, maybe there is no answer, soon that is what I will have to think. Hehe!

On top of that, there's another matter in my opinion. Why are the majority of those who claim the gibberish tongue they speak is the true cloven tongue, relying on the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine of men, when that doctrine is not written in God's Word? As a matter of fact, per Ezekiel 13 God is against those who teach His people to fly to save their souls.

In Mark 13, within the tribulation timing, Jesus warned us about being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, and told us to not premeditate what we will say in that hour, that it will be The Holy Spirit speaking through us. Now that's a testimony by our Lord Jesus about the manifesting of the cloven tongue of Pentecost DURING the "great tribulation" timing. So how is it those I know who speak the gibberish tongue are ALL... on man's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine which teaches we won't go through the tribulation???

 

[UnderGrace]

Pardon me, but but but.....

Anyway this is a completely useless discussion with you as you continually have rejected that tongues are not for today which is complete foolishness and is a man-made tradition which has infiltrated the body of Christ to rob her of a great blessing of the Lord.

If they are for today then it should have been for every day before to 1901 in Topeka Kansas by Charles Parham where it was supposedly rediscovered.

So God who has this beautiful gift of a private prayer language and was silent on it for nearly 2000 years.

The early church fathers Tertullian, Irenaeus, Polycarp etc., etc., who were closest to the time of the apostles had very little if nothing to say on this gift.

And all through the centuries this gift to edify, God was unable to make it available even to the reformers.

But in 1901 they wanted to find a way to start a revival so they borrowed from other religions that manifested this gift. (which most likely has to do with the psyche, psychology)

What is the most interesting is that Parham who in 1901 wanted the gift of tongues for his missionaries that were going to China, eventually denounced what the gift of tongues had become as “chattering, jabbering and sputtering, speaking no language at all” denounced it even unto his death.

This is a matter of public record.

I believe the tongues can be of human origin and of angelic origin as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:1.

There are two manifestations of tongues - private for talking with the Lord 1 Cor 14:2 and then the tongues and interpretations for the others to be blessed by.

We keep telling you the same thing over and over again Roger. The people in Cornelius's house, the Ephesians and the Corinthians were all gentiles and I'm sure that you would still deny the gifts of the Spirit if Jesus Himself walked in and told you differently.

Anyway this is a completely useless discussion with you as you continually have rejected that tongues are not for today which is complete foolishness and is a man-made tradition which has infiltrated the body of Christ to rob her of a great blessing of the Lord.

People praying in the spirit/tongues are the fastest growing part of the Christians worldwide - and it is for a good reason too. Ignore it if you chose to Roger but God will prevail with those that follow Him.

There is enough scripture posted in this the read to answer those that are honestly seeking the truth. I will not be answering any more as this is just a complete waste of time.

I do like your solid understanding on the grace of Christ in the gospel for salvation. You are solid on that area and we are blessed to have you refute the "law-keepers" as well as those that try to "maintain" their own righteousness and not depend on Christ's finished work alone.

 

[BenFTW]

Pardon me, but but but.....




If they are for today then it should have been for every day before to 1901 in Topeka Kansas by Charles Parham where it was supposedly rediscovered.

So God who has this beautiful gift of a private prayer language and was silent on it for nearly 2000 years.

The early church fathers Tertullian, Irenaeus, Polycarp etc., etc., who were closest to the time of the apostles had very little if nothing to say on this gift.

And all through the centuries this gift to edify, God was unable to make it available even to the reformers.

But in 1901 they wanted to find a way to start a revival so they borrowed from other religions that manifested this gift. (which most likely has to do with the psyche, psychology)

What is the most interesting is that Parham who in 1901 wanted the gift of tongues for his missionaries that were going to China, eventually denounced what the gift of tongues had become as “chattering, jabbering and sputtering, speaking no language at all” denounced it even unto his death.

This is a matter of public record.

VVouldn't that experience confirm the biblical stance of a private prayer language? They utter mysteries in the spirit, no one understands them, and they speak not to men but to God. Right? So for someone to get frustrated that they were incapable of ministering to someone in tongues, instead of discrediting the gift, it in fact supports the idea that tongues are a private prayer language.

I, through scripture, believe tongues are for both private and public use. You cannot use an example of people's failure to use tongues to minister as a means of discrediting the gift because scripture itself says the tongue speaker isn't speaking to men but to God and he utters mysteries in the spirit. If anything, it confirms scripture. That, however, isn't the whole truth as there is a public and private use for tongues. I am just saying that logically, and with reason you cannot discount the gift based upon the knowledge you just shared because there are verses expressly stating it isn't for others to understand.

 

[UnderGrace]

Let us just look at this....

VVouldn't that experience confirm the biblical stance of a private prayer language? They utter mysteries in the spirit, no one understands them,

Okay look read this in context,

In 1 Corinthians 14:21 Paul comes pretty close to a definition of the gift of tongues.

He says other tongues, this verse is taken from Isaiah.

Other tongues is other languages.

The word glosa is always used no other

Paul does not continually say other tongues so let’s just say tongues (languages), but he is referring to other language as in foreign languages that is why the KJV added unknown, although the context makes it clear.

Here is your all important verse which you allude to in your statement.....

1 Cor 14:2
King James Bible
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


So is someone is speaking not praying but speaking in an tongue and (since he will quote Isaiah we know these are other tongues which may be the gift from 1 Cor. 13:4) no man understands what the someone is saying it is only being understood by God to everyone else it is a mystery.

That is what He is saying not talking about some mysterious language. The language is a mystery because it is not known it is not a mysterious language!!

His spirit which means breath in this context, so his breath is speaking a mystery.

That is all Paul is saying. It is not any private mystery language. It is only a mystery to the person in the church at Corinth who does not know the language because God knows every language.

The word spirit was used for breath in English for many years until recently where is has become obsolete, just like it can mean ghosts or alcohol depending on the context!!!! It also means this in Greek, breath the context tells the meaning.

VVouldn't that experience confirm the biblical stance of a private prayer language? They utter mysteries in the spirit, no one understands them, and they speak not to men but to God. Right? So for someone to get frustrated that they were incapable of ministering to someone in tongues, instead of discrediting the gift, it in fact supports the idea that tongues are a private prayer language.

I, through scripture, believe tongues are for both private and public use. You cannot use an example of people's failure to use tongues to minister as a means of discrediting the gift because scripture itself says the tongue speaker isn't speaking to men but to God and he utters mysteries in the spirit. If anything, it confirms scripture. That, however, isn't the whole truth as there is a public and private use for tongues. I am just saying that logically, and with reason you cannot discount the gift based upon the knowledge you just shared because there are verses expressly stating it isn't for others to understand.

 

[RickyZ]

On top of that, there's another matter in my opinion. Why are the majority of those who claim the gibberish tongue they speak is the true cloven tongue, relying on the Pre-Tribulational Rapture doctrine of men, when that doctrine is not written in God's Word? As a matter of fact, per Ezekiel 13 God is against those who teach His people to fly to save their souls.

In Mark 13, within the tribulation timing, Jesus warned us about being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, and told us to not premeditate what we will say in that hour, that it will be The Holy Spirit speaking through us. Now that's a testimony by our Lord Jesus about the manifesting of the cloven tongue of Pentecost DURING the "great tribulation" timing. So how is it those I know who speak the gibberish tongue are ALL... on man's Pre-trib Rapture doctrine which teaches we won't go through the tribulation???

I'm not pre-trib. No way. Don't make such broad assumptions

 

[Cee]

So Paul is saying, I thank my God that i breathe more than you all, I wish that you all would breathe? Lol. But not when you're around people, no don't breathe around them. Prophesy to those people. Haha.

Paul is clearly saying tongues is not understood by ANYONE, except God. That's why you don't speak in tongues around other people, but prophesy around them. Paul even goes so far as to say HIS MIND doesn't understand.

AND in Acts 2, the people heard them speaking in tongues TO God. The disciples weren't speaking to the people.

 

[Grace777x70]

For anyone that is interested in the subject of tongues in the early church. Here is an article with quotes from the early fathers.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo

https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/evidence-speaking-tongues-early-church

Here is another website that talks about tongues speaking in the church by different people in different places.

Talking Pentecostalism: The history of tongues

If I went to an atheist website to see whether or not Jesus is real - I would come away with a different viewpoint then the reality that Jesus is real and He is Lord.

Where we go to "find" out truth matters. Go to a website that doesn't believe in any one truth of scripture - and they will have some kind of human reasoning why that truth isn't "biblical" anymore.

 

[UnderGrace]

So Paul is saying, I thank my God that i breathe more than you all, I wish that you all would breathe? Lol. But not when you're around people, no don't breathe around them. Prophesy to those people. Haha.

Paul is clearly saying tongues is not understood by ANYONE, except God. That's why you don't speak in tongues around other people, but prophesy around them. Paul even goes so far as to say HIS MIND doesn't understand.

AND in Acts 2, the people heard them speaking in tongues TO God. The disciples weren't speaking to the people.

Really you are so funny....LOL Good try. The word is breath not breathe

pneuma: wind, spirit

Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit

Look up spirit in English and if you are diligent you may find the same results.

Corinth was a troubled church the most troubled and the most carnal. He is correcting them nothing else. That is the proper lense through which his letters need to be read.

He never says his mind does not understand. The point is the exact opposite. He is saying what is the point of words no one not even the person saying them can understand.

So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
1 Cor. 14:9

"Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding . . . but in understanding be men" (verses 19, 20).

This is his point.

Both the gift of tongues and the gift of prophecy were an intelligent communication of the truth. Both functioned for the proclamation and communication of the gospel. But in the Corinthian church Paul contrasts speaking in tongues with the gift of prophecy. The one was incoherent and unedifying. The second was by intelligent expression.

To edify is to create a better knowledge and moral improvement, for all their tongue speaking whatever was going on there, something was very wrong at Corinth, since Paul had to address so many issues there, and their problems continued well past the first century.

Maybe because they exalted experience over Truth? Paul did his best but apparently his words are still lost on people.

 

[fredoheaven]

The Greater Works

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

John14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The “greater works that Jesus says refers to the widespread of the Gospel beginning “… in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8. This is not about the “unknown tongues” which the childish church of Corinth likes to do.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you fredoheaven!!

The Greater Works

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works

John14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The “greater works that Jesus says refers to the widespread of the Gospel beginning “… in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8. This is not about the “unknown tongues” which the childish church of Corinth likes to do.