Are christians sinners, saints, or both?

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What shall we call ourselves?


  • Total voters
    29
E

ELECT

Guest
#41
That's like asking "do you still beat your wife?" hehe

Get your facts straight first is my advice. Recognize that if I say I am the chief of sinners, I can tell you about thefts and adulteries and lies that might make your hair stand on end. I'm sure I've ruined lives from my previous ways. Paul murdered Children of God. Though we are both forgiven, such a past still has a certain weight to it until the day we die, do you know what I mean? Not like guilt or anything, because Paul and I have been forgiven.
But if you think Paul was still murdering people when he said he was the chief of sinners, you are sorely mistaking.
If you think I am still out fornicating and lying and stealing, you are again sorely mistaking.

Paul WAS (past tense) a sinner. He was transformed into a Saint, and we read and believe His Righteousness Came from Christ Jesus and believe his Words exactly as we believe Jesus' Words. Are you following?

Now, if Paul was, as you are more than indicating, still an active sinner at the time he said he WAS chief of sinners, you are flat wrong, and really need a few lessons in proper discernment of the Word of God.

So yes, I answered that I was a Saint. Why? Because I am of the below verse 9. Those who aren't of verse 9, are of verse 8. I hope this solves your quandary. Ask the right questions, you'll get the right answers.
Peace!

(1Jn 3:8)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Do you sin ?


1 John 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
Oct 24, 2014
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#42
Why is it that forgive us of our debts is in the Lords prayer

part of perfection is God forgiving you as you forgive your debtors be ye perfect read the whole chapter

Do you sin ? Do you ask God for forgiveness daily ?
I have been forgiven yes :) God knows how I've been on my face before Him in repentance for my sins.
Now I pray for the forgiveness of sins of others.
As far as the Lord's prayer I'm glad you mentioned that, because the real point of this thread is about whether or not we are forgiven. Not if we repented. If we are forgiven our sins, we are sinless. Try to grasp that, it is important. If you like, I can provide you a couple dozen verses that say just that if need be?
The next part of the Lord's prayer is what I spend a lot of time on, because the first part has been accomplished. And now THIS is the most important part,
That is this;
(Mat 6:13)
And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

That is what I pray. I sure don't want that evil one coming back to bother me again no sireeebobby! For the evil one is that "old man" of my old self that deserved to die, so I killed that old self in the waters of baptism, self sacrifice, die to self, identifying with the self sacrificed death of Jesus Himself, One in His death, and One with in Resurrection. I now live resurrection life. A New Life, New Creation. A Holy Child of God containing His incorruptible seed. As a Wife bringing forth Her Bridegrooms Son of God within her belly, bringing forth Christ, in pain to be delivered. The Coming of the Lord!
So the last thing I want to deal with is that old man of the dead self trying to tempt me into an old death path thought or activity... "the evil one". And Jesus is always right there with the sword of the spirit, slicing the head right off that serpent before he can bite :) He is always faithful to do so in fact,

(1Co 10:13)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.


So I am of one of the two below verses. I'll let you decide which one :)

(1Jn 3:8)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
Oct 24, 2014
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#43
Do you sin ?


1 John 1:7-9King James Version (KJV)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And you just repeat that over and over and over again in your life? Can you not relate to walking in the light without committing adultery and repenting and committing adultery and repenting and committing adultery and repenting over and over and over again? Is that what you are requiring? WHERE in the Bible is it appropriate to ask ANOTHER person "if they sin?" Don't you think it would be a little bit more appropriate to ask yourself that? Seriously?
I have sinned probably more than anyone on this forum. Verse 9 is where I am at now if I am pressed by you to disclose my position in Christ, and I am Eternally grateful.
If you are still hung up in verse 8 from some unforgiven sins you can't seem to shake, if I were you, I'd seek some spiritual counseling. Never ask someone else if they sin. Just ask yourself. Eventually you will be able to become familiar with such as this verse;

Why is it that forgive us of our debts is in the Lords prayer

part of perfection is God forgiving you as you forgive your debtors be ye perfect read the whole chapter

Do you sin ? Do you ask God for forgiveness daily ?
I have been forgiven yes :) God knows how I've been on my face before Him in repentance for my sins.
Now I pray for the forgiveness of sins of others.
As far as the Lord's prayer I'm glad you mentioned that, because the real point of this thread is about whether or not we are forgiven. Not if we repented. If we are forgiven our sins, we are sinless. Try to grasp that, it is important. If you like, I can provide you a couple dozen verses that say just that if need be?
The next part of the Lord's prayer is what I spend a lot of time on, because the first part has been accomplished. And now THIS is the most important part,
That is this;
(Mat 6:13)
And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

That is what I pray. I sure don't want that evil one coming back to bother me again no sireeebobby! For the evil one is that "old man" of my old self that deserved to die, so I killed that old self in the waters of baptism, self sacrifice, die to self, identifying with the self sacrificed death of Jesus Himself, One in His death, and One with in Resurrection. I now live resurrection life. A New Life, New Creation. A Holy Child of God containing His incorruptible seed. As a Wife bringing forth Her Bridegrooms Son of God within her belly, bringing forth Christ, in pain to be delivered. The Coming of the Lord!
So the last thing I want to deal with is that old man of the dead self trying to tempt me into an old death path thought or activity... "the evil one". And Jesus is always right there with the sword of the spirit, slicing the head right off that serpent before he can bite :) He is always faithful to do so in fact,

(1Co 10:13)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.

I don't judge others as sinners, unless I see them sin and see that they haven't been repentant and asked for forgiveness, giving me to know to evangelize them. That is one of my favorite verses to use in fact, to lead someone to confess their sins. To make them SINLESS :) in Christ.

Whoever doesn't know they are sinless by the blood of Christ, needs to hear that good news, or repent of their sins so they can be forgiven.

So of the two verses below, which one describes you? (There is no middle ground here :))

(1Jn 3:8)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#44
What is your religion about if not being sinless?

(Heb 10:22)
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
(Rev 1:5)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
(Mat 5:48)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
(1Jn 3:8)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
so your perfect? You can go 24 hours without thinking one selfish though? I can't, paul could not even do that as he admitted.

the word translated perfect there means mature. Not sinless.. If we think we are sinless we are in danger, and self deceived, As John says, if we say we are sinless, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.
 

blood_bought

Junior Member
Oct 20, 2014
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#45
I think we should consider that Paul's intent was not just declaring his filthy wretchedness. We can mostly link this kind of contemplative brooding with seeking forgiveness, or as a contrast of our wickedness and God's richness in grace, or as a preamble to the solution that is found in our Saviour Jesus Christ.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

We must ask ourselves; what has Christ come into the world to save sinners from? Well, sin of course and all of sin's subsequent consequences. If Christ said to a man, "Go, and sin no more", then I believe it is safe to conclude that we are not to be presently identifying ourselves with a sinful identity. This mentality sets the stage for us to wallow in the fruitlessness of self-disgust when in truth we should just be hating the sin. In Christ we hit the mark, and are to no longer be deliberately missing it if truly abiding in Him by faith through grace. If we so happen to miss the mark in ignorance, and we will, His blood cleanses us from all sin. God's mercy manifested in the Christian's life produces a repentance wherein we learn of Him by humbly seeking to follow His lead in all matters of life and godliness.

I view Paul's humility in maintaining a penitent remembrance of his former life as a device used to express the grandeur of our Lord's mercy. He could not have been speaking of the new creation in Christ. Like many, Paul felt like a wretched worst of the worst sinner of sinners shocked by the light of Christ's unending love on that road of rage towards Damascus. But Paul died, and it was no longer Paul that lived, but Christ in Him. I offer that we should consider ourselves dead to sin in like manner so that we may better apply our energies towards walking in the Spirit and advancing in what He has called us all to.

Peace.
 
Last edited:
Oct 24, 2014
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#46
The point I was making is how can Paul say I am a sinner (present tense) yet be dead to sin at the same time.

One cannot be a sinner yet saved at the same time Lk 5:32.
Exactly.
The only confusion here would be if someone tried to force the scripture to "mean" present tense that Paul still sinned. Who makes this stuff up?
 
Oct 24, 2014
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#47
so your perfect? You can go 24 hours without thinking one selfish though? I can't, paul could not even do that as he admitted.

the word translated perfect there means mature. Not sinless.. If we think we are sinless we are in danger, and self deceived, As John says, if we say we are sinless, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.
More interestingly, are you going to tell me I'm not perfect? Christ's plan didn't go as promised? Christ was incapable of cleansing me and keeping me from the evil one, is that what you are saying?

And what do you mean "selfish thought"? Are you going whip up a new sin now so I can be newly wicked and evil all the sudden?

If you are not sinless, it is because you still sin. That is what John says. It is obvious what John is saying, don't try to make John sound like he's on your side lol. Because THIS is what John says about a person who repented and confessed their sin and walk in Newness of Life;

And you just repeat that over and over and over again in your life? Can you not relate to walking in the light without committing adultery and repenting and committing adultery and repenting and committing adultery and repenting over and over and over again? Is that what you are requiring? WHERE in the Bible is it appropriate to ask ANOTHER person "if they sin?" Don't you think it would be a little bit more appropriate to ask yourself that? Seriously?
I have sinned probably more than anyone on this forum. Verse 9 is where I am at now if I am pressed by you to disclose my position in Christ, and I am Eternally grateful.
If you are still hung up in verse 8 from some unforgiven sins you can't seem to shake, if I were you, I'd seek some spiritual counseling. Never ask someone else if they sin. Just ask yourself. Eventually you will be able to become familiar with such as this verse;

Why is it that forgive us of our debts is in the Lords prayer

part of perfection is God forgiving you as you forgive your debtors be ye perfect read the whole chapter

Do you sin ? Do you ask God for forgiveness daily ?
I have been forgiven yes :) God knows how I've been on my face before Him in repentance for my sins.
Now I pray for the forgiveness of sins of others.
As far as the Lord's prayer I'm glad you mentioned that, because the real point of this thread is about whether or not we are forgiven. Not if we repented. If we are forgiven our sins, we are sinless. Try to grasp that, it is important. If you like, I can provide you a couple dozen verses that say just that if need be?
The next part of the Lord's prayer is what I spend a lot of time on, because the first part has been accomplished. And now THIS is the most important part,
That is this;
(Mat 6:13)
And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

That is what I pray. I sure don't want that evil one coming back to bother me again no sireeebobby! For the evil one is that "old man" of my old self that deserved to die, so I killed that old self in the waters of baptism, self sacrifice, die to self, identifying with the self sacrificed death of Jesus Himself, One in His death, and One with in Resurrection. I now live resurrection life. A New Life, New Creation. A Holy Child of God containing His incorruptible seed. As a Wife bringing forth Her Bridegrooms Son of God within her belly, bringing forth Christ, in pain to be delivered. The Coming of the Lord!
So the last thing I want to deal with is that old man of the dead self trying to tempt me into an old death path thought or activity... "the evil one". And Jesus is always right there with the sword of the spirit, slicing the head right off that serpent before he can bite :) He is always faithful to do so in fact,

(1Co 10:13)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as man can bear: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that ye may be able to endure it.

I don't judge others as sinners, unless I see them sin and see that they haven't been repentant and asked for forgiveness, giving me to know to evangelize them. That is one of my favorite verses to use in fact, to lead someone to confess their sins. To make them SINLESS :) in Christ.

Whoever doesn't know they are sinless by the blood of Christ, needs to hear that good news, or repent of their sins so they can be forgiven.

So of the two verses below, which one describes you? (There is no middle ground here :))

(1Jn 3:8)
he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1Jn 3:9)
Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#48
More interestingly, are you going to tell me I'm not perfect? Christ's plan didn't go as promised? Christ was incapable of cleansing me and keeping me from the evil one, is that what you are saying?
God promised to remove the penalty of sin. He never promised to make you sinless perfect. The fact you think he would should scare you. You not only make paul a liar. but the apostle john also.

And what do you mean "selfish thought"? Are you going whip up a new sin now so I can be newly wicked and evil all the sudden?
lol, new sin? Selfishness has been a sin since adam. The pharisees were perfect at it. they thought they were sinless also.. We see how dangerous it was for them.

If you are not sinless, it is because you still sin. That is what John says. It is obvious what John is saying, don't try to make John sound like he's on your side lol. Because THIS is what John says about a person who repented and confessed their sin and walk in Newness of Life;
1 John 1: 8, if we say we are without sin, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.

Your argument is with John, not me.

There is a huge difference between LIVING IN SIN (which a christian can not do as John said) and not sinning at all.

And you just repeat that over and over and over again in your life? Can you not relate to walking in the light without committing adultery and repenting and committing adultery and repenting and committing adultery and repenting over and over and over again? Is that what you are requiring? WHERE in the Bible is it appropriate to ask ANOTHER person "if they sin?" Don't you think it would be a little bit more appropriate to ask yourself that? Seriously?
I have sinned probably more than anyone on this forum. Verse 9 is where I am at now if I am pressed by you to disclose my position in Christ, and I am Eternally grateful.
If you are still hung up in verse 8 from some unforgiven sins you can't seem to shake, if I were you, I'd seek some spiritual counseling. Never ask someone else if they sin. Just ask yourself. Eventually you will be able to become familiar with such as this verse;

Why do you people always like to mention adultry. you think because you do not commit adultry you are a righteous person? Stop thinking like a pharisee and start thinking like paul ANYTIME you do ANYTHING for self. it is sin, Do not sit there and tell me you can go 24 hours without doing that. You would be lieing to yourself.

As scripture says, If we break even the LEAST of all the commands, we are found GUILTY of the WHOLE law. Thus we are guilty and undeserving.
 
Sep 30, 2014
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#49
I'm going to quote one verse, and I'm done with the topic in general, saints and sinners just sounds funny...

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we walk as he, we have fellowship with one another, the ones who walk in this light of Christ, we are clean from all sin.

Bride, skinski, Jim, wordswordsman and myself are in one accord with this thought, we are clean, and must stay that way.

Didn't vote, because everyone should know if we have God as we say we do, we don't sin.

all I got folks :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#50
Exactly.
The only confusion here would be if someone tried to force the scripture to "mean" present tense that Paul still sinned. Who makes this stuff up?
who made it up?

God did.

Paul said, that I want to do, I DO NOT DO. That I do not want to do. THAT I DO.

Present tense verbs.. All inspired by God.
 
Oct 24, 2014
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#51
For those who find they are still stuck attempting to defend a Romans 7 repetitive sin cycle, Please PLEASE know that there is something way beyond that "sinner" life that many here seem stuck on. It is by being filled with the Sinless Holy Spirit of Christ who does NO SIN. If we are one with Him, sin has no power in our life, and temptations are quickly dispatched.
So read this Romans 8 which is the answer to those who still experience the miserable Romans 7 description that Paul gives of someone still under the old law of sin and death.
The solution to sin in our lives!

(Rom 8:1)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
(Rom 8:2)
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
(Rom 8:3)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:4)
that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit.
(Rom 8:5)
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit.
(Rom 8:6)
For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the spirit is life and peace:
(Rom 8:7)
because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
(Rom 8:8)
and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Rom 8:9)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:10)
And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Rom 8:11)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:12)
So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:
(Rom 8:13)
for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the spirit ye mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(Rom 8:14)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
(Rom 8:15)
For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
(Rom 8:16)
The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
(Rom 8:17)
and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint–heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
(Rom 8:18)
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us–ward.
(Rom 8:19)
For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:20)
For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
(Rom 8:21)
that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
(Rom 8:22)
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Rom 8:23)
And not only so, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:24)
For by hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
(Rom 8:25)
But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
(Rom 8:26)
And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;
(Rom 8:27)
and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Rom 8:28)
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
(Rom 8:29)
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
(Rom 8:30)
and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Rom 8:31)
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
(Rom 8:32)
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?
(Rom 8:33)
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth;
(Rom 8:34)
who is he that shall condemn? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#52
being dead to sin means it no longer has power over you where you can not stop it. It does not mean you are sinless. No one is sinless 24/7 No matter how mature you are. Paul did not even claim this, as mature in Christ as he was, he still claimed he ran the race, he had not yet finished.
Do you folks even think through what you write?

On the one hand you claim...

1. Being dead to sin means it no longer has the power over you where you can not stop it.

Thus...

A. Being dead to sin means you now have the ability to stop the sin (because the disability to stop it has been terminated).

Yet in the very next sentence you claim...

B. No-one is sinless.

So you repudiate anyone who claims to effectually utilise the power you assert in claim 1.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#53
Full disclosure there is a faction here espousing the idea that true regenerate christians are not sinners. They say they sin at times, but they should not be called sinners and refuse to call themselves sinners. Thus, I'm asking the question:

Are we christians sinners?
Are we saints?
Or are we both?

Now the answer is clear in my view. Paul was certainly a saint (a set apart individual to God) but also called himself the chief of sinners and a wretched man. He had no trouble reconciling both titles.

Rom. 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

1Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy sayinga that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.


Notice that in both the above cases Paul is speaking in the present tense. I am a sinner, wretched man that I am. Obviously he had no problem calling himself both and neither do I.

Now to stave off a few coming accusations, I'm not an advocate of licentiousness. I don't believe that true faith exists without works. I believe also that reckless habitual sin on the part of professing believers may be an indication of a lack of true faith and an unregenerate state. Sin is never okay, and the Bible condemns licentiousness. I wanted to clarify that, because that's the main accusation this small group throws out against anyone claiming they are a sinner in the manner Paul did. Just recently one told me that a claim to sinnership is a denial of my sainthood. I of course refute that with Paul's words quoted above.

My hope in this thread is clarity. I want it to bring light not heat. I also want to expose what I think is a cultic movement on these boards and I pull no punches about that. I am open to correction on that as well, if I'm going too far with that, but that's my belief at present. I'm also concerned that some younger brothers on this board are getting caught up with these false teachers (again, my view, and I'm open to correction). I'd invite critiques on how far I'm taking this as well.

An article that might be helpful for further reading:
Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?

What say you?
Paul is using the grammatical device known as "Historical Present" in order to give emphasis to what he is stating. He is not claiming that he is a sinner in the present.

Look at the context...

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Why do you folks NEVER quote verse 13? Why skip over that and isolate verse 15 from the context? Peter warned about people who twist the writings of Paul.

Paul also wrote this...

1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Paul also wrote this...

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Paul was the chief of sinners within the context that he realised that he did great evil in persecuting the church. That statement has NOTHING to do with arguing in favour of ongoing rebellion in the life of a Christian.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#54
A Christian has two natures. The first is his sin nature the second is his new nature in Christ. These two natures war against each other until the Christian is glorified together with his Lord.

To claim one is sinless is to sin. It is the sin of pride and presumption to consider oneself unable to sin. Christians have an advocate with the Father so that when we sin we can confess it and be forgiven. The Holy Spirit bring conviction of sin so we are made aware of our sin.

Paul struggled with the dual natures and wanted to do what pleased the Lord yet often found himself to fall short and do that which he did not want to do.

The necessities of the body which is flesh competes with the necessities of the Spirit is of Christ. The closer I draw to Christ the more I see I have a great deal more separation from Him. The holiness and purity of God far exceeds anything I can even imagine let alone perform.

I can only bear the fruit that the Vine produces in me. That is all God expects of me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#55
Full disclosure there is a faction here espousing the idea that true regenerate christians are not sinners. They say they sin at times, but they should not be called sinners and refuse to call themselves sinners. Thus, I'm asking the question:

Are we christians sinners?
Are we saints?
Or are we both?

Now the answer is clear in my view. Paul was certainly a saint (a set apart individual to God) but also called himself the chief of sinners and a wretched man. He had no trouble reconciling both titles.

Rom. 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

1Tim. 1:15 Here is a trustworthy sayinga that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.


Notice that in both the above cases Paul is speaking in the present tense. I am a sinner, wretched man that I am. Obviously he had no problem calling himself both and neither do I.

Now to stave off a few coming accusations, I'm not an advocate of licentiousness. I don't believe that true faith exists without works. I believe also that reckless habitual sin on the part of professing believers may be an indication of a lack of true faith and an unregenerate state. Sin is never okay, and the Bible condemns licentiousness. I wanted to clarify that, because that's the main accusation this small group throws out against anyone claiming they are a sinner in the manner Paul did. Just recently one told me that a claim to sinnership is a denial of my sainthood. I of course refute that with Paul's words quoted above.

My hope in this thread is clarity. I want it to bring light not heat. I also want to expose what I think is a cultic movement on these boards and I pull no punches about that. I am open to correction on that as well, if I'm going too far with that, but that's my belief at present. I'm also concerned that some younger brothers on this board are getting caught up with these false teachers (again, my view, and I'm open to correction). I'd invite critiques on how far I'm taking this as well.

An article that might be helpful for further reading:
Are Christians sinners, saints, or both?

What say you?
Romans 7 is presented within the context of the entire book of Romans, especially within the context of Romans 6 and 8.

In Romans 6 Paul speaks of how the the service of (obedience to) sin ceases in the baptism of repentance whereby we henceforth yield our members unto righteousness, unto holiness, the end of which is eternal life. Thus eternal life is THROUGH Jesus Christ which is contrasted with sinning unto death (rebellion).

It is then in Romans 7 that Paul then addresses those who know the law (Rom 7:1) and then serves to defend the law as being good even though it brought death by giving sin its power, for one cannot sin unto death (rebel) without something to rebel against (either conscience or law).

It is in the latter part of that chapter that Paul is teaching that the law cannot redeem someone from the wretched state that sin brings about. The letter of the law can only regulate the outward man, it cannot regulate the heart. Thus the wretch mentally concedes that the law is right (and thus serves it in his mind) but his spirit is dead to God and thus his flesh dominates because the flesh always serves the law of sin. In other words the wretch is hopelessly addicted to sin and is very convicted by this state because he knows he is doing wrong. That IS NOT the Christian. Paul is giving emphasis to the truth that it is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets us free from such a state which is why he IMMEDIATELY follows the wretched man sentiment with...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is weak through the flesh because it does not address the issue of the heart. Without a heart transformation the flesh sits on the throne and dominates the individual, thus they cannot stop sinning.

Jesus came and set before us an example of what it is like to walk after the Spirit whereby the flesh is subdued. Jesus condemned sin in the flesh by walking according to the Spirit that the righteousness of the law be fulfilled IN us. That is why the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death.

It is THROUGH Christ that we stop sinning.

Yet the wolves will take that simple teaching and butcher it beyond belief and use isolated portions of Romans 7 to defend the notion that Christian's remain evil and keep sinning, the only difference being that they get convicted about it while the lost just do it with abandon.

Satan has most of you folks very deceived. Jesus has warned us all folks...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

When you claim that you cannot do the right thing and then blame your flesh for it you are only just deceiving yourselves. You can do the right thing and Jesus has told us all to DO the right thing. If we DO what He says then we build our house upon the rock.

Those that Jesus rejects are the "workers of iniquity" and the wretch of Romans 7 was a "worker of iniquity." If we name the name of Christ we are to depart from iniquity.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#56
A Christian has two natures. The first is his sin nature the second is his new nature in Christ. These two natures war against each other until the Christian is glorified together with his Lord.

To claim one is sinless is to sin. It is the sin of pride and presumption to consider oneself unable to sin. Christians have an advocate with the Father so that when we sin we can confess it and be forgiven. The Holy Spirit bring conviction of sin so we are made aware of our sin.

Paul struggled with the dual natures and wanted to do what pleased the Lord yet often found himself to fall short and do that which he did not want to do.

The necessities of the body which is flesh competes with the necessities of the Spirit is of Christ. The closer I draw to Christ the more I see I have a great deal more separation from Him. The holiness and purity of God far exceeds anything I can even imagine let alone perform.

I can only bear the fruit that the Vine produces in me. That is all God expects of me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Gnostic Dualism you ought to say.

You have been deceived by Gnostic doctrines which have infiltrated common church teachings.

they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions in which they may be involved.
Irenaeus refuting Gnosticism, Against Heresies, Chapter 6
http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Ante-Nicene-Fathers-Vol-1.pdf

they run us down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect [in spirit], and the elect seed.
Irenaeus alluding to the fact that the early Christian's guarded themselves against sinning in even thought and word which alines with John...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Because...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Ignatious wrote..
They that are carnal cannot do those things which are spiritual, nor they that are spiritual the things which are carnal; even as faith cannot do the works of unbelief, nor unbelief the works of faith. But ye, being full of the Holy Spirit, do nothing according to the flesh, but all things according to the Spirit. Ye are complete in Christ Jesus, “who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.”



Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians, Ch. 8

Again I quote you...

Radical dualism—or absolute dualism, posits two co-equal divine forces. Manichaeism conceives of two previously coexistent realms of light and darkness that become embroiled in conflict, owing to the chaotic actions of the latter. Subsequently, certain elements of the light became entrapped within darkness; the purpose of material creation is to enact the slow process of extraction of these individual elements, at the end of which the kingdom of light will prevail over darkness. Manicheanism inherits[SUP][27][/SUP][SUP][28][/SUP] this dualistic mythology from Zurvanist Zoroastrianism,[SUP][29][/SUP] in which the eternal spirit Ahura Mazda is opposed by his antithesis, Angra Mainyu; the two are engaged in a cosmic struggle, the conclusion of which will likewise see Ahura Mazda triumphant.
Gnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


All you are doing is posting Gnostic sentiment and dressing it up with a pretext of Jesus Christ.

You have to ignore much of the Bible and can only quote very select isolated portions of the scripture which you have to rip out of context.

 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#57
I'm going to quote one verse, and I'm done with the topic in general, saints and sinners just sounds funny...

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we walk as he, we have fellowship with one another, the ones who walk in this light of Christ, we are clean from all sin.

Bride, skinski, Jim, wordswordsman and myself are in one accord with this thought, we are clean, and must stay that way.

Didn't vote, because everyone should know if we have God as we say we do, we don't sin.

all I got folks :)
I am going to quote one verse, Then I am done with you.

1 John 1: 8, If we say 9John included himself present tense) We are without sin, we decieve ourselves and there is no truth in us.

You all are decieved. And dangerous to not only the church, the world, but yourselves. Repent
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#58
Do you folks even think through what you write?

On the one hand you claim...

1. Being dead to sin means it no longer has the power over you where you can not stop it.

Thus...

A. Being dead to sin means you now have the ability to stop the sin (because the disability to stop it has been terminated).

Yet in the very next sentence you claim...

B. No-one is sinless.

So you repudiate anyone who claims to effectually utilise the power you assert in claim 1.
again,

having the power to not sin, and being sinless 24/7 is not the same.

I am glad you want to be like the pharisees. But I will be like paul. and not so arrogant to think I have reached perfection. If I ever get to that point, I pray someone kills me, Because I would be then useless to God. those around me, and the world. Because I would think more highly of myself than I deserve.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#59
A Christian has two natures. The first is his sin nature the second is his new nature in Christ. These two natures war against each other until the Christian is glorified together with his Lord.
A human being has a flesh body which has innate natural desires. The flesh body and its desires is not a sin nature. The flesh body and its desires are a source of temptation.

It is the Gnostics who taught that the flesh body itself was evil and sinful and thus by doing so they could deny they were responsible for their deeds because "the flesh made me do it."

To claim one is sinless is to sin. It is the sin of pride and presumption to consider oneself unable to sin. Christians have an advocate with the Father so that when we sin we can confess it and be forgiven. The Holy Spirit bring conviction of sin so we are made aware of our sin.
All you are doing is upholding the ancient lie that one can rebel against God and not surely die. You mock the righteousness of God by making light of sin by implying that one can just repeatably say "sorry" for a life of continual and ongoing sin. Where is the righteousness of God in that? Where is the redemption from sin in that? Where is the purity in that? There is none.

Also I don't know of anyone who believes one is "unable to sin." One can always sin because sin is an act of the will. What one cannot do though is sin and remain alive. One cannot be abiding with God with a pure heart and choose to sin and remain abiding with God with a pure heart. A pure heart cannot sin. That doesn't mean one with a pure heart cannot forsake their birthright, be complacent and defile themselves with sin. If there is no choice involved then there is no such thing as vice or virtue.

Paul struggled with the dual natures and wanted to do what pleased the Lord yet often found himself to fall short and do that which he did not want to do.
All you are doing is promoting a lie of Satan by selectively quoting Paul out of context. Paul wrote that it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death and that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us if we walk after the Spirit.

Dual nature doctrine is not taught in the Bible, it is only imposed on the Bible by the ignorant. Jesus preached on heart purity yet your dual nature doctrine denies the preaching of Jesus.

notuptome;1745801The necessities of the body which is flesh competes with the necessities of the Spirit is of Christ. The closer I draw to Christ the more I see I have a great deal more separation from Him. The holiness and purity of God far exceeds anything I can even imagine let alone perform.[/quote said:
Here you are implying that Jesus is a liar. Jesus taught it is the pure in heart who will see God and Jesus commanded people to be perfect (morally) as God is perfect, all presented within the context of inward righteousness, not a mere outward fashion like the Pharisees had.

Your entire message is one of defeat, not victory. Your Gospel teaches that God saves you yet leaves you wretched and filthy without the capability to do what is right. Honestly what kind of salvation message is that? Do you really think God is so weak that He cannot literally save you from sin but instead can only pretend you are righteous while leaving you filthy?

How have so many of us checked out brains at the door? None of this is rocket science.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#60
again,

having the power to not sin, and being sinless 24/7 is not the same.

I am glad you want to be like the pharisees. But I will be like paul. and not so arrogant to think I have reached perfection. If I ever get to that point, I pray someone kills me, Because I would be then useless to God. those around me, and the world. Because I would think more highly of myself than I deserve.
The Pharisees were "inwardly wicked" but put on an "outward show" of godliness.

The Christian is "inwardly righteous" and thus MANIFESTS "outward righteousness."

Thus you can try and compare me to the Pharisees all you like. I am not telling anyone to keep the Mosaic Law of "touch not, taste not" but rather I tell people to forsake evil and yield to righteousness.

I speak of heart purity which are two words that which are an anathema to many people when put together.

What do you mean by perfection? Why not define that term as you use it?

I say we are to be perfect in faith having a pure heart in which we love God and one another. That is the perfection I believe in. Not perfection as in never making a mistake, simply perfect in love.

Isn't that the perfection you deny?