Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

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GaryA

Guest
However many people he was speaking to the fact remains that he was quoting from Daniel and the passage when read correctly shows that the Son of Man was going into the presence of God not coming back to earth
Really???


Did He say this? :


Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless - as it is written in Daniel, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Or, did He say this? :


Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


He was not quoting anyone -- He was [ simply ] making a [ prophetic ] statement. Period.

:)
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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The seals, trumpets, vials are all versions of the same events, told serially.

I'm gonna swipe this pic from Hizi:

Either this picture is Wrong or Scriptures are wrong. Both can't be Right.

Scriptures PLAINLY teach that it is at the 7th Trumpet that the Temple in Heaven is OPENED. And what comes out of that Temple that was just opened in Heaven? The seven Angels with the 7 last vials/bowels. Scriptures are TRUE, what men teach are lies and false doctrines. The above picture is so contrary to Scriptures, i don't even know where to start.
One of the Trumpets blown the islands are MOVED, one of the vials poured the Islands are GONE. NOT THE SAME EVENTS. Do not listen to anyone who teaches things that are contrary to Scriptures, they do not know the TRUTH, but teach things that come from men and not from God.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
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Or - the picture is right and your understanding of scripture is wrong.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
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Or - the picture is right and your understanding of scripture is wrong.
This is what Scriptures plainly say and teach, has nothing to do with my or your or anyones understanding

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; ..... ... .16 ... .. . . .17 .... . . . ..18... .. . . . .19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Scriptures plainly teach at the 7th trumpet the Temple of God was opened in Heaven. Deny what Scriptures teach?

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

According to Scriptures what happens when the Temple in Heaven is Opened? The seven Angels with the seven plagues comes out of that Temple. Again, are you going to Deny Scriptures and what they plainly say?

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ....... .... ...13 ... .. ... .. .14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Do you believe Scriptures which plainly teach above that at the 6th seal EVERY mountain and island is MOVED out of their places?

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; .......18.... ......19 ..... ...:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Do you believe Scriptures which now teach at the Seventh vial island and mountains can't be found, they are GONE?

So then if i am to merely believe Scriptures and what they plainly and clearly teach, the picture MUST be WRONG. Those who believe they are the same event, are equally as WRONG, because that belief contradicts plain Scriptures, and that has nothing to do with my understanding, your understanding, or anyone elses understanding, that is what plain Scriptures clearly teach.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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Here is a chart/diagram that reveals the endtimes. and NOT one thing contradicts any verse in Scriptures. i have posted in another thread for anyone to point out something in the diagram that was not Scriptural, which Atwhatcost, was the only one to do so, to which i corrected the diagram to reflect the Scriptures.

Revelation Timeline ().jpg
 
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I'm not sure of what am I looking at here?

Here is a chart/diagram that reveals the endtimes. and NOT one thing contradicts any verse in Scriptures. i have posted in another thread for anyone to point out something in the diagram that was not Scriptural, which Atwhatcost, was the only one to do so, to which i corrected the diagram to reflect the Scriptures.

View attachment 167559
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Figurative language typical of the Hebrew poetic/prophetic style - only children take this literally.

This kind of language the bible is loaded with:

Amos 9:13 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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I'm not sure of what am I looking at here?
Greetings mj007,

You're looking at a chart of the end-time events, the order of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which represent the wrath of God. Below are the errors in that chart:

1). Seals 1 thru 5 are outside of God's wrath, the seven year period, when they should be included.

Reason: Jesus is the One who is opening the seals and is therefore the initiator of God's wrath. In the scripture "For the great day of their wrath [has come] and who can endure it" the words in brackets are in the Aorist tense, which would include everything that had previously taken place as belonging to God's wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of seven judgments which make up God's wrath. They shouldn't be separated.

2). The chart shows Jesus returning in the middle of the seven years, when he cannot return until after God's wrath has been completed, which is after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

Reason: Scripture demonstrates that Jesus doesn't return to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out. As proof of this, after the 6th bowl is poured out, Jesus interjects the following:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

The above would demonstrate that he has not yet returned to the earth.

3). The chart has the new Jerusalem coming down in the middle of the seven years, in the middle of God's wrath, while scripture is clear that it doesn't come down until after the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the seven years of tribulation, which is then followed by the millennial period. The new Jerusalem will never touch down on this current earth. Below is the chronological order of events:

* Seven years of tribulation via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments - Rev.6 thru 18

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom - Rev.19:11-21

* Millennial kingdom - Rev.20:1-10

* New Heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem - The eternal state - Rev.21 & 22


4). The saints do not rule over the Male child/144,000, but will rule with the church, as will the great tribulation saints who are resurrected.

Reason: Scripture shows them ruling with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom - Rev.12:5

5). The creation of the new heaven and new earth should be placed after the end of the thousand years.

Reason: The great white throne judgment takes place after the millennial period and it is there that this current heaven and earth pass away and not before:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One who sat on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them." - Rev.20:11

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Rev.21:1

The above scripture takes place after the millennial period and after the great white throne judgment.
 
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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
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This would be such a good phrase for me to use right now -- except, I do know where to start...

You will never get / have it right as long as you believe that the 70th week of Daniel is yet future.

:)
And yet you have not given one Scriptural verse to prove anything in the Timeline to be wrong. Is it really so hard to find ONE Scripture that can show everyone here that that Timeline can't be correct, really, NOT one when there is soooo much wrong with it? ONE VERSE. really?

If there is So much wrong with the timeline, then why is it so hard for ANYONE to show even one verse that proves it wrong, why is that? i know, because it is absolutely Scriptural.

If you really think that i have it wrong, is it not the Godly thing to do to try to help me? i have asked repeatedly for anyone to show me one verse that is contrary. If you want to help me, which would be a Godly thing to do, then try. i don't care about your opinions, i don't even care about mine. What i want is Scriptures, yet there seems to not be any that contradict what the Timeline says.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 
Dec 17, 2013
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Im sort of a preterist or whatever you call it in that I've only recently started studying the Bible because of events happening in the world that are happening exactly like the Bible said that they would but since I became an adult and realized that im going to be held accountable to God for my life I have tried to not contribute to the negativity in the world admittedly that's because I don't want to go to hell not necessarily because I think that God is such a nice guy that His niceness is why He gave us that advice.

He gave us that advice because it's NECESSARY in a functioning society to live by that advice that is evident because our society now is non functioning.

There is nothing holy about His advice it is simply common sense,common sense that should be passed from one generation to the next....it's not .. so we've created a seemingly endless cycle of ignorance that God is now ending because it is out of control so that He is the only one that can stop it.

Unfortunately those that are supposed to help guide us are making it worse by teaching generation after generation that not only does God forgive failure but He expects it from us and when you are being judged by yourself NOT with your family,friends,and congregation( because that's how it's going happen) He will take into account your intentions or that you were taught that failure is acceptable to Him.

I think that He will judge on results.

The reults are irrefutable...we ruined the world.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Just show me Scriptures which proves this diagram to be incorrect.
Show me scripture which proves the diagram to be correct.

The burden-of-proof for what you are putting forth is your responsibility.

No one can reasonably expect to state something as fact and then declare that it is everyone else's responsibility to prove them wrong.

To do so demonstrates thinking that is not mature, honest , or logical.

Grow up. :p Accept the responsibility that is clearly yours.


And yet you have not given one Scriptural verse to prove anything in the Timeline to be wrong. Is it really so hard to find ONE Scripture that can show everyone here that that Timeline can't be correct, really, NOT one when there is soooo much wrong with it? ONE VERSE. really?
If there is So much wrong with the timeline, then why is it so hard for ANYONE to show even one verse that proves it wrong, why is that?
The "proof" is not in a single verse of scripture; rather, it must be 'discerned' from scripture as a whole.

Your eschatological views are based on some assumptions / presumptions that the scriptures do not actually indicate as being true.

Until you are able to reason these things correctly, you will continue to assume / presume things that will keep you in error.

Begin by learning how to not assume / presume things that scripture does not actually say...

:)
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
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Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


Just show me Scriptures which proves this diagram to be incorrect.
Show me scripture which proves the diagram to be correct.

The burden-of-proof for what you are putting forth is your responsibility.
lol, i ask people to show me any Scriptures which proves something in the timeline is wrong. Then you say it is my responsibility to prove it to be right. Why do you think i am asking the question. i want to know if there is any Scriptures that proves something in the timeline is wrong. Atwhatcost showed me a Scripture and then i went and corrected the timeline to reflect what is in Scriptures. So far. AtWhatCost is the only one to actually show any Scripture.

No one can reasonably expect to state something as fact and then declare that it is everyone else's responsibility to prove them wrong.
i have a timeline. i am asking for help. Is there anything in the timeline that you see that is NOT Scriptural. AtWhatCost seen something that was not Scriptural and i immediately changed the timeline to reflect the Scripture that he showed me. If you are unable to show even one verse then move on brother to help someone else brother.

To do so demonstrates thinking that is not mature, honest , or logical.
sigh... . .. .. .. .



:p Accept the responsibility that is clearly yours.
i did, i created the timeline in the best way i knew how according to the knowledge that i have. i am now asking for help from anyone who can find any Scripture that contradicts what is in the timeline. If you are unable to do this, then move on brother and help someone else that you will be able to help. On this issue, you are not willing or can't help me. i am asking if anyone can find something contrary to Scriptures in the timeline. if you can't help me with that, then so be it.

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

And yet you have not given one Scriptural verse to prove anything in the Timeline to be wrong. Is it really so hard to find ONE Scripture that can show everyone here that that Timeline can't be correct, really, NOT one when there is soooo much wrong with it? ONE VERSE. really?



Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

If there is So much wrong with the timeline, then why is it so hard for ANYONE to show even one verse that proves it wrong, why is that?

The "proof" is not in a single verse of scripture; rather, it must be 'discerned' from scripture as a whole.

Your eschatological views are based on some assumptions / presumptions that the scriptures do not actually indicate as being true.

Until you are able to reason these things correctly, you will continue to assume / presume things that will keep you in error.

Begin by learning how to not assume / presume things that scripture does not actually say...

:)
Ok, so what i am gathering from you, is that you don't know of one verse that contradicts what is in the timeline. If you did, then would you not been more than glad to reveal it to me? OK then, You don't know one verse that contradicts the timeline.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Why do you think i am asking the question. i want to know if there is any Scriptures that proves something in the timeline is wrong.
i have a timeline. i am asking for help.
i did, i created the timeline in the best way i knew how according to the knowledge that i have. i am now asking for help from anyone who can find any Scripture that contradicts what is in the timeline.
Okay, I can understand that...

I have explained to you that "a single verse" is not going to 'prove' your error. Yet, it still remains. You have to "back up" and look at the "bigger picture"...

:)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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Really???


Did He say this? :


Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless - as it is written in Daniel, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Or, did He say this? :


Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


He was not quoting anyone -- He was [ simply ] making a [ prophetic ] statement. Period.

:)
either way He was speaking about His resurrection and subsequent kingship, not about the second coming. They were to be seen 'FROM NOW ON'. It was the use of apocalyptic imagery. The second coming has not been seen by anyone yet (except by John in vision)..
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
lol, i ask people to show me any Scriptures which proves something in the timeline is wrong. Then you say it is my responsibility to prove it to be right. Why do you think i am asking the question. i want to know if there is any Scriptures that proves something in the timeline is wrong. Atwhatcost showed me a Scripture and then i went and corrected the timeline to reflect what is in Scriptures. So far. AtWhatCost is the only one to actually show any Scripture.



i have a timeline. i am asking for help. Is there anything in the timeline that you see that is NOT Scriptural. AtWhatCost seen something that was not Scriptural and i immediately changed the timeline to reflect the Scripture that he showed me. If you are unable to show even one verse then move on brother to help someone else brother.
The timeline is based on a false interpretation. Daniel said seventy sevens, which were shown to be consecutive. Scripture knows of no seven year tribulation. Most of what is in it is pure speculation. But t least you didn't say 'God told me'. That's an improvement :)
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
Originally Posted by DiscipleDave


lol, i ask people to show me any Scriptures which proves something in the timeline is wrong. Then you say it is my responsibility to prove it to be right. Why do you think i am asking the question. i want to know if there is any Scriptures that proves something in the timeline is wrong. Atwhatcost showed me a Scripture and then i went and corrected the timeline to reflect what is in Scriptures. So far. AtWhatCost is the only one to actually show any Scripture.



i have a timeline. i am asking for help. Is there anything in the timeline that you see that is NOT Scriptural. AtWhatCost seen something that was not Scriptural and i immediately changed the timeline to reflect the Scripture that he showed me. If you are unable to show even one verse then move on brother to help someone else brother.
The timeline is based on a false interpretation.
And yet you have not shown one thing to be contrary to Scriptures. Do we try the spirits based on our own beliefs or try the spirits based on the Word of God? If then something in the timeline is contrary to Scriptures then reveal the Scripture. But if contrary to your own opinions or your own interpretation or your own thinking what the TRUTH is, then please keep them to yourself. For i did not ask for opinions or personal thoughts, but i have plainly asked for Scriptures that proves something in the timeline is wrong. if you can't do so, then why are you even replying?

Daniel said seventy sevens, which were shown to be consecutive. Scripture knows of no seven year tribulation.Most of what is in it is pure speculation. But t least you didn't say 'God told me'. That's an improvement :)
lol. God did tell me 80% of the timeline, that is most certainly an improvement. What you will listen to me if it is from me, but you will not listen to me if i say it is from God? Are you a little mixed up there? God is far better than what man can say. What God tells me is 100% TRUE, what man teaches is false, lies, and not the TRUTH. Scriptures should be our guideline to what is TRUTH and what is not TRUTH. Therefore if you can find any Scripture that proves something to be incorrect then reveal the Scripture, thank you and God Bless you.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 
G

GaryA

Guest
either way He was speaking about His resurrection and subsequent kingship, not about the second coming. They were to be seen 'FROM NOW ON'. It was the use of apocalyptic imagery. The second coming has not been seen by anyone yet (except by John in vision)..
Well - no -- actually, He was speaking very literally about His Second Coming.

:)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
Really???


Did He say this? :


Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless - as it is written in Daniel, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Or, did He say this? :


Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said:
nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


He was not quoting anyone -- He was [ simply ] making a [ prophetic ] statement. Period.

:)
Hey Gary,

Did the High Priest actually see this?

Hereafter shall ye (the High Priest, Caiaphas) see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Hey Gary,

Did the High Priest actually see this?

Hereafter shall ye (the High Priest, Caiaphas) see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
First of all...

Matthew 26:

[SUP]64[/SUP] Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall
ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


BTW - 'ye' is plural. Jesus is speaking to the high priest, but is referring to more-than-just-the-high-priest in His statement about seeing the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

:)
Why do you not think that this could be fulfilled at the Second Coming of Christ? The word 'hereafter' means "sometime after now"; it does not necessitate fulfillment in someone's lifetime. Ever heard that many will see Him coming in the clouds? ( at the Second Coming )

It does seem to indicate that the high priest was saved, doesn't it?

Why the confusion? :confused:

:)