Are you saved if you are not obedient?

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Are you saved if you are not obedient to Christ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 18 75.0%

  • Total voters
    24
R

Ralph-

Guest
Right now I'm of the opinion that if a person is basically not being obedient in their faith then they haven't got to the Spirit part of the water/Spirit birth Jesus talks about in John 3. That's not a condemnation. It just takes time to get beat down by sin before you come into full surrender to the Spirit.

Though I'm not trying to be condemning, it's also true that I would still be in the water part of salvation, defeated in sin, and rationalizing it in the name of grace had it not been for some gut level honesty that finally led me to complete surrender to the mercy of God in salvation.

Until a person gets to a Luke 18:13 relationship with God they will be paddling the waters of repentance only minus the Spirit.
 
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DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
Did you just claim to be sinlessly perfect? Houston we have a problem!

Don't let reality get in the way of your self-examination!
Cancel that Houston, no problem here!

If you are not sinlessly perfect
Which I am.
What am I? Not sinlessly perfect.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Is someone claiming they are living a sinful lifestyle? I must have missed something.
Every Christian who rationalizes being defeated by sin in the name of grace is living a lifestyle of sin. If they weren't they would not be rationalizing it in the Christian.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Every Christian who rationalizes being defeated by sin in the name of grace is living a lifestyle of sin. If they weren't they would not be rationalizing it in the Christian.
Have yet to hear any christian claim they are being defeated by sin, Again, Can you name some people?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Have yet to hear any christian claim they are being defeated by sin, Again, Can you name some people?
It's a fair bet that everyone who defends the defeat of sin in Romans 7 are themselves defeated by sin and have yet to come into the liberty of the Spirit in Romans 8. This is not rocket science.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It's a fair bet that everyone who defends the defeat of sin in Romans 7 are themselves defeated by sin and have yet to come into the liberty of the Spirit in Romans 8. This is not rocket science.
So in other words, You can not name anyone who says this, It is just your opinion that everyone who defends a certain interpretation of romans 7 is saying they are defeated by sin?

What interpretation would that be?

That paul spoke pre-salvation

The paul spoke of the inner struggle everyone has the war between the FLESH and the SPIRIT. And how paul gave us chapter 8 as a means to overcome this struggle?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Evening Studyman.
I hope all is well with you.

Would you mind clarifying for me your quote below.



Are you saying that we must keep a Saturday Sabbath because God says "Keep a Saturday Sabbath"
Therefore keeping the Sabbath on a Sunday is wrong.

I will admit though that I do not fully understand Sabbath preaching.

All I know it's that on Sunday me and my family go to church.

My wife works for the church.

Today's meeting was orchestrated by my wife.
All inclusive Christmas service.
Youngsters being included to the older as well.

All giving testimony to what God has done for them.
Worship was amazing, people praying for each other and talking to each other.

So what's your thoughts?

God bless

Bill
Hello Billy,

I am quite surprised that with all the thousands of reply's on the several Sabbath treads you still don't understand the Sabbath teaching. But regardless, these are my thought. I won't quote scriptures as they have been repeated many times in just this last month.

For me it is about what God/Jesus teaches in His Word and what He warns about vs. what men teach.

Jesus was trying to tell the "Mainstream Church" of His time, the Pharisees and those who followed them, that they were following a "Broad Path" that leads to destruction because they, like their fathers before them, transgressed the Commandments of God by their own man made traditions.

These people were no different than any of us. They had Granma's and Grandchildren, and little babies laughing and playing, and they all got together in their worship of God and laughed, and loved each other and played with the laughing children. they prayed to God and had joy in worship. Jesus speaks about them "teaching in His Name", Helping poor people and helping people rid themselves of demons and doing all manner of great things, all in His name.

But these same people, when they were told by God/Jesus that it was wrong to create their own religion, wrong to create their own images of God in the likeness of man (You know what I'm talking about), wrong to create their own High Days and transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions, these same Grandpa's and mothers yelled "Crucify Him".

These same nice loving parents who were teaching their children that it is OK to openly reject God's Word as long as you place God's name on your disobedience. It's OK to create your own righteousness, as long as you give God the credit.

And when Jesus pleaded with them to consider the God they claimed to follow, when He risked His friendship and fellowship by telling these nice mothers and fathers that they were wrong, that they were deceived into serving satan even though they thought they were serving God. And all because he loved them.

When Jesus opened to the mainstream preachers of His time, their very own Bible, and showed them in this Book where they were actually serving satan and not God, They hated Him first, then to silence Him, to keep His Light from exposing their works as coming from man and not from God, they Killed Him.

And He wasn't the first. When God sent His Prophets to tell the Mothers with children, and Fathers and Grandfathers that they were following lies about Him, that they had lost their way, these same loving humans tortured and murdered these Prophets to silence them as well.

In every case of this behavior, it was the only God of Abraham believing People on the planet that God sent these Prophet's and then His own Son to. And in every case these loving grandmothers and fathers with children chose their own traditions and religious doctrines over God's Word and instruction.

But not everyone Billy.

Abel loved God in truth. Abraham and Noah didn't resist God's Words. Caleb, even though his "Christian" brothers threatened to stone him to death, he stuck with the Word of God over the "Many". Daniel was thrown in the loins den by these grandfather's who claimed God as their God, yet walked in the imagination of their own minds.

This theme has been repeated over and over as an "Example" to us, so we don't do as they did.

Yet here were are. The same God, and the same loving mothers and grandfathers teaching their children that it is OK to reject God's Word and create your own "Path".

You and I both know that Sunday Sabbath is man's creation, man's tradition and not from God.

Yet somehow you have been convinced that your traditions are OK with God, that He doesn't really care if you reject His Word that became Flesh, and create your own word, as long as you place Jesus' name on it.

It is for these reasons that My wife, my daughter and I "turned to God" and left the Mainstream religion with their customs and traditions. And it is for this reason that I work to share what the Word of God says to me.

But Billy, I have never seen God. His Word may just be another book. God may be altogether different than what This Book reveals. Maybe He doesn't even exist. I personally can't say as a mere human.

But I have faith that He does. And I believe in Him and ALL of His Word even if those around me, who claim Him as their God, do not.

What sealed this for me is that God foretold of this exact same thing thousands of years ago. He said they would hate the "Just One" sent to save them. He spells out the heart of man better than science will ever do, and did it before science was even science. He said "many" would come in His name to deceive. And He said "MANY" would be deceived by these men who come in His name.

He told me my natural self would rebel against God and why. He told me how I would think before I was even born. I find His Wisdom far greater than that of those fathers with children or grandfathers who gathered in prayer before nailing to a cross the most perfect human ever born, even after God's own Word foretold that they would.

So I can't make anyone choose the God of the Bible over man's creation, that is not what the Word is for. All I can do is point out the fact that Sunday Sabbath is from man, and Saturday Sabbath is from God.

The choice of which one to honor is yours to make.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
So in other words, You can not name anyone who says this, It is just your opinion that everyone who defends a certain interpretation of romans 7 is saying they are defeated by sin?

What interpretation would that be?

That paul spoke pre-salvation

The paul spoke of the inner struggle everyone has the war between the FLESH and the SPIRIT. And how paul gave us chapter 8 as a means to overcome this struggle?
It is my opinion that anyone who defends sin in the Christian using the defeat of sin in Romans 7 and then uses chapter 8 to rationalize being safe in that defeat are themselves probably living in that defeat.

We know who those people are by what they say about those chapters. Chapter 8 is the believers release from sin, not the rationalization to stay in it. How one views chapter 8 says a lot about where they are at spiritually in their move towards God.
 
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E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is my opinion that anyone who defends sin in the Christian using the defeat of sin in Romans 7 and then uses chapter 8 to rationalize being safe in that defeat are themselves probably living in that defeat.
Thats fine, Who are they? I have never seen or heard of any christian defend sin.
We know who those people are by what they say about those chapters. Chapter 8 is the believers release from sin, not the rationalization to stay in it. How one views chapter 8 says a lot about where they are at spiritually in their move towards God.

I have never used anyone use chapter 8 to defend sin. So again, Can you give some examples?

 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Right now I'm of the opinion that if a person is basically not being obedient in their faith then they haven't got to the Spirit part of the water/Spirit birth Jesus talks about in John 3. That's not a condemnation. It just takes time to get beat down by sin before you come into full surrender to the Spirit.

Though I'm not trying to be condemning, it's also true that I would still be in the water part of salvation, defeated in sin, and rationalizing it in the name of grace had it not been for some gut level honesty that finally led me to complete surrender to the mercy of God in salvation.

Until a person gets to a Luke 18:13 relationship with God they will be paddling the waters of repentance only minus the Spirit.
I see the conversation with you and EG, but I want to address something in your post Ralph, if I may....

Would not we need the ministry of Holy Spirit working within us to bring us to full salvation? Or am I misunderstanding your post?

I do like the way you have worded the process of being saved. :) For some of us we need to get tired of spinning our wheels stuck in the mud more than once.

What I am seeing though goes back to the process of purging. We are covered and we are purged. But, as in branches, it's the dead limbs that are cut off, not the living. Otherwise, the branch dies. So with these sins that trip us up, they must die to our desiring , otherwise they will grow back on the branch.

To try in our own resisting, it does not die. It's the devil we resist. We escape temptation through Jesus. Or the grace that He gives. That is identification with Him. Rest.

Our own resisting is law. The power of grace is Holy Spirit.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I see the conversation with you and EG, but I want to address something in your post Ralph, if I may....

Would not we need the ministry of Holy Spirit working within us to bring us to full salvation? Or am I misunderstanding your post?

I do like the way you have worded the process of being saved. :) For some of us we need to get tired of spinning our wheels stuck in the mud more than once.

What I am seeing though goes back to the process of purging. We are covered and we are purged. But, as in branches, it's the dead limbs that are cut off, not the living. Otherwise, the branch dies. So with these sins that trip us up, they must die to our desiring , otherwise they will grow back on the branch.

To try in our own resisting, it does not die. It's the devil we resist. We escape temptation through Jesus. Or the grace that He gives. That is identification with Him. Rest.

Our own resisting is law. The power of grace is Holy Spirit.
my whole point is the only people I here say others are excusing sin, or using any passage to excuse sin are people who are against grace alone for salvation, Thats why I asked for actual names of people.


 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
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go to church that teaches eternal security or to a church that teaches u can lose ur salvation and take ur sin-o-meter with u.

u will find the same amount of sin u see...... i have seen this in my life that believing u can/cant lose ur salvation wont make u act any better or worse........
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
If obedience to Law is required; that obedience must be to God's standard (NOT YOURS).

If the obedience required is not to Law; but to the Spirit of God within us; then all that is required of us is a lifestyle that refrains from resisting the Spirit's leading.

1 Jn 2:1-3
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
KJV

And if any man sin The if here has the force of when because it is a special use of the conditional that means [if, and you can expect that he will]

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. This definitely speaks of a lifestyle of obedience!

But how do we obey?

Ro 8:3-13
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
KJV

We see here that the obedience which is pleasing to God is not our own, that we can take credit for it; but, rather, it is obedience that comes from the Holy Spirit's prompting and enabling.

Php 2:13
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Thats fine, Who are they? I have never seen or heard of any christian defend sin.

I have never used anyone use chapter 8 to defend sin. So again, Can you give some examples?

Someone right here in this thread quoted Romans 7 as a response. Look it up if you want names.

What I have noticed in this forum is if you think Romans 7 is the struggle with sin before spiritual salvation and chapter 8 is the Spirit's deliverance from the bondage of sin in a born again experience you are in the minority.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood.”[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 25:31-46, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world – for I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you came to Me. Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry and we fed You, or thirsty and gave You to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and took You in, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and we came to You? And the Sovereign shall answer and say to them, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me. He shall then also say to those on the left hand, ‘Go away from Me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his messengers – for I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, was naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me. Then they also shall answer Him, saying, ‘Master, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not serve You? Then He shall answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, in so far as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan12:26, “26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.” [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Malachi 3:16-18, “Then those who reverenced [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]spoke often one to another, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]paid attention and heard them; and a Book of Remembrance was written in His presence of those who gave reverence to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and who thought upon His Name; And they will be Mine! says [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of hosts. In that day when I make up My jewels I will spare them, as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you will return, and again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him who serves [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and him who does not serve Him.”

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
47
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Someone right here in this thread quoted Romans 7 as a response. Look it up if you want names.

What I have noticed in this forum is if you think Romans 7 is the struggle with sin before spiritual salvation and chapter 8 is the Spirit's deliverance from the bondage of sin in a born again experience you are in the minority.
hi
paul does speak in present tense u see.

i can recognize myself from that chapter.... say what u will
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
my whole point is the only people I here say others are excusing sin, or using any passage to excuse sin are people who are against grace alone for salvation, Thats why I asked for actual names of people.


Yes, I saw that EG. And I can't understand how he says that either.

I was then addressing the fact that Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and ask for Him. He's the helper. We don't receive the baptism of Holy Spirit after we win all victories.

More of His glory filling maybe, but He remains regardless.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
I see the conversation with you and EG, but I want to address something in your post Ralph, if I may....

Would not we need the ministry of Holy Spirit working within us to bring us to full salvation? Or am I misunderstanding your post?

I do like the way you have worded the process of being saved. :) For some of us we need to get tired of spinning our wheels stuck in the mud more than once.

What I am seeing though goes back to the process of purging. We are covered and we are purged. But, as in branches, it's the dead limbs that are cut off, not the living. Otherwise, the branch dies. So with these sins that trip us up, they must die to our desiring , otherwise they will grow back on the branch.

To try in our own resisting, it does not die. It's the devil we resist. We escape temptation through Jesus. Or the grace that He gives. That is identification with Him. Rest.

Our own resisting is law. The power of grace is Holy Spirit.
Yes, we need the Holy Spirit to come to full, born again, Spirit-filled salvation in Christ. My point is, I'm of the opinion that there are Christians who aren't there yet. They have been called to salvation and want a relationship with Christ but the death of the flesh in a Luke 18:13 kind of surrender and defeat to the flesh hasn't happened yet. And instead of acknowledging that defeat as God intends and opening themselves up to the mercy of God they rationalize this 'pre-Spirit filled, repentance only, no power over sin' state their in as being that's what the Christian life is about until the resurrection. And they use Paul's pre-salvation experience in Romans 7 as the 'proof' of that. Then they use Chapter 8 to prove it is God's grace that makes it so they can be in chapter 7 and still be okay with God.

In general, if you're still in the bondage of sin, as opposed to fighting it as something outside of you trying to grab you, you may well still be in the water only repentance stage of salvation. You want to be saved and you've responded to God's calling in some measure of repentance but at the end of the day you're still the same you and unable to overcome sin. It is at that point that a person is prepped and ready to fall on the mercy of God and receive the power of the Holy Spirit in a genuine born again, Spirit filled salvation experience. This is all by God's design. Everybody comes to salvation through the defeat of sin. If you're still in the defeat of sin you may still need to enter into God's born again salvation by the Spirit, not rationalize your condition as being the expected state of the believer until the resurrection.
 
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R

Ralph-

Guest
hi
paul does speak in present tense u see.

i can recognize myself from that chapter.... say what u will
If you don't see in your life one who is 'not in the flesh but in the Spirit' then you may well have yet to come to a born again experience in Christ.

In the Spirit doesn't mean sinless perfection. It means you are not in bondage to sin like unbelievers are as Paul describes in Chapter 7.
 
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R

Ralph-

Guest
go to church that teaches eternal security or to a church that teaches u can lose ur salvation and take ur sin-o-meter with u.

u will find the same amount of sin u see...... i have seen this in my life that believing u can/cant lose ur salvation wont make u act any better or worse........
It should be no surprise that OSAS churches rationalize 'being in the flesh' as the expected condition of the believer after salvation. That's why they are not big on obedience and go to great lengths to rationalize and defend living in the defeat of sin as the way it's going to be, like it supposedly was for Paul in Romans 7. They never quite get to the liberty from the bondage of the flesh in chapter 8. Instead, chapter 8 is their rationalization to be in a Romans 7 kind of spiritual condition and still be okay with God.