Are you saved if you are not obedient?
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The words (Instructions) that I (Yahshua/Jesus) speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting." [/FONT]
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John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]
E
The point people seem to be missing is John is talking about sin. Paul is talking about producing fruit.
A child of God who lived a life of sin and then came to christ, His life changed, He no longer lives as the world lives. But for whatever reason, He remained a baby christian. He is not LIVING IN SIN (as john said he can not) But he is not producing fruit because he either has not been trained (his church or his disciples has failed to show him) He decides he wishes to just be idle (he goes to church, he does the religious thing, but he is not involved in ministry) for all we know. He could have done a lot of works. Then through something he because a prodigal and lost a lot of his reward.. trying to judge why a person had his rewards burnt, or what a person did or did not do to lose reward is playing God.
A child of God who lived a life of sin and then came to christ, His life changed, He no longer lives as the world lives. But for whatever reason, He remained a baby christian. He is not LIVING IN SIN (as john said he can not) But he is not producing fruit because he either has not been trained (his church or his disciples has failed to show him) He decides he wishes to just be idle (he goes to church, he does the religious thing, but he is not involved in ministry) for all we know. He could have done a lot of works. Then through something he because a prodigal and lost a lot of his reward.. trying to judge why a person had his rewards burnt, or what a person did or did not do to lose reward is playing God.
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I believe this statement is the great example of the difference between how Jesus lived, and how those who He rejected in Matt. 7, lived.
Using The Sabbath God Created for man as an example, only an example, nothing else. Please don't shut the door because of the mention of God's Sabbath. I'm using it as an example.
God sets forth a Commandment, Saturday Sabbath. And Man set's forth a Commandment Sunday Sabbath.
If I regard God's Words over man's word, am I doing a work of Man?
How is following God's Commandment a "Work of man", but following "mans" religious doctrines and traditions a "Work of God"?
How can you say God's Sabbath is not a "work of God"? And how can you say obeying God regarding His Sabbath is our "work"?
Jesus also, was born into a religion that had traditions of man that had been taught for thousands of years. These traditions were not from God as He clearly pointed out.
Did He walk in the "Traditions" of man as the mainstream church of His time preached? Or did He "Walk" in the Works of God?
Didn't Eve have the exactly same choice? She had the Word's of God in her mind, and she had the "words" of the enemy of God in her mind. And she was forced by God to "make a choice" as we all are.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
How is choosing Jesus and His Works a "work of man"?
How in the world do you come to the conclusion that those who are obedient to God and have made the choice Jesus instructed are going to be burned when the heat get's turned up.
Can you give one example of the Faithful in the Bible that fled when the heat got turned up? Caleb. Abel, Noah?
How is following a Commandment Jesus said was created for "MAN", something we "Think we are doing for God"?
How can you preach that the "works" God does through our life is different than His Work's created for man?
This a very dangerous mindset that is taught in mainstream religions IMO. If we are convinced that Jesus is in us, then everything we do is a "work of God".
We can create images of God in the likeness of a long haired men's hair shampoo model, a direct and blatant rebellion and disrespect to the First and greatest Commandment of God, and are blameless in our minds because it "must" be a Work of God.
We can say "Lord, Lord, and create massive "Feasts unto the Lord" and religious traditions and High Days, that our fathers were destroyed for doing, and as long as we place Jesus name on it, we are blameless.
How, because Jesus must be in us, our preachers said so, therefore any "Work" we do is a "Work" of God as long as we say "Lord, Lord.
The Bible teaches against this ancient practice of rebelling against the Word of God. Doesn't this give you pause?
1 Co 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
I understand this to mean that the works law keepers and others think they are doing for God will burn away when tried by fire; but the Works that God does through a person's life will be rewarded as long as the law keeper doesn't depend on his works for Salvation.[/QUOTE]
Using The Sabbath God Created for man as an example, only an example, nothing else. Please don't shut the door because of the mention of God's Sabbath. I'm using it as an example.
God sets forth a Commandment, Saturday Sabbath. And Man set's forth a Commandment Sunday Sabbath.
If I regard God's Words over man's word, am I doing a work of Man?
How is following God's Commandment a "Work of man", but following "mans" religious doctrines and traditions a "Work of God"?
How can you say God's Sabbath is not a "work of God"? And how can you say obeying God regarding His Sabbath is our "work"?
Jesus also, was born into a religion that had traditions of man that had been taught for thousands of years. These traditions were not from God as He clearly pointed out.
Did He walk in the "Traditions" of man as the mainstream church of His time preached? Or did He "Walk" in the Works of God?
Didn't Eve have the exactly same choice? She had the Word's of God in her mind, and she had the "words" of the enemy of God in her mind. And she was forced by God to "make a choice" as we all are.
Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
How is choosing Jesus and His Works a "work of man"?
How in the world do you come to the conclusion that those who are obedient to God and have made the choice Jesus instructed are going to be burned when the heat get's turned up.
Can you give one example of the Faithful in the Bible that fled when the heat got turned up? Caleb. Abel, Noah?
How is following a Commandment Jesus said was created for "MAN", something we "Think we are doing for God"?
How can you preach that the "works" God does through our life is different than His Work's created for man?
This a very dangerous mindset that is taught in mainstream religions IMO. If we are convinced that Jesus is in us, then everything we do is a "work of God".
We can create images of God in the likeness of a long haired men's hair shampoo model, a direct and blatant rebellion and disrespect to the First and greatest Commandment of God, and are blameless in our minds because it "must" be a Work of God.
We can say "Lord, Lord, and create massive "Feasts unto the Lord" and religious traditions and High Days, that our fathers were destroyed for doing, and as long as we place Jesus name on it, we are blameless.
How, because Jesus must be in us, our preachers said so, therefore any "Work" we do is a "Work" of God as long as we say "Lord, Lord.
The Bible teaches against this ancient practice of rebelling against the Word of God. Doesn't this give you pause?
1 Co 3:10-15
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
KJV
I understand this to mean that the works law keepers and others think they are doing for God will burn away when tried by fire; but the Works that God does through a person's life will be rewarded as long as the law keeper doesn't depend on his works for Salvation.[/QUOTE]
If only a lot of believers realised this. It would save a lot of heartache, worry, fear and condemnation.
If only they realised that when they said "I do" then they are in a relationship with the Father.
He loves us enough to accept us where were at and are and loves us enough to walk with us.
It's a very heavy burden to carry, one that says we must do what is right in order to be loved and accepted when in fact we already are.
Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
If only they realised that when they said "I do" then they are in a relationship with the Father.
He loves us enough to accept us where were at and are and loves us enough to walk with us.
It's a very heavy burden to carry, one that says we must do what is right in order to be loved and accepted when in fact we already are.
Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Evening Studyman.
I hope all is well with you.
Would you mind clarifying for me your quote below.
Are you saying that we must keep a Saturday Sabbath because God says "Keep a Saturday Sabbath"
Therefore keeping the Sabbath on a Sunday is wrong.
I will admit though that I do not fully understand Sabbath preaching.
All I know it's that on Sunday me and my family go to church.
My wife works for the church.
Today's meeting was orchestrated by my wife.
All inclusive Christmas service.
Youngsters being included to the older as well.
All giving testimony to what God has done for them.
Worship was amazing, people praying for each other and talking to each other.
So what's your thoughts?
God bless
Bill
I hope all is well with you.
Would you mind clarifying for me your quote below.
Are you saying that we must keep a Saturday Sabbath because God says "Keep a Saturday Sabbath"
Therefore keeping the Sabbath on a Sunday is wrong.
I will admit though that I do not fully understand Sabbath preaching.
All I know it's that on Sunday me and my family go to church.
My wife works for the church.
Today's meeting was orchestrated by my wife.
All inclusive Christmas service.
Youngsters being included to the older as well.
All giving testimony to what God has done for them.
Worship was amazing, people praying for each other and talking to each other.
So what's your thoughts?
God bless
Bill
I have some bad news.
If you must obey to be saved, and you claim there isn't any measurable or ascribed amount of obedience which is is required, but rather just an all-encompassing command to obey... then I think you're in much trouble.
If you are not sinlessly perfect, that means there MUST BE times you are failing to obey.
If you are commanded to obey, and you are failing to obey (which you are) then you must not be saved.
Let me reiterate:
If you are commanded to obey, and you are failing to obey (which you are) then you must not be saved.
If you are not sinlessly perfect, then you are failing at times to obey.
So you are commanded to obey, but you are failing to obey.
You are commanded to obey, but you are failing to obey.
If you must obey to be saved, and you are failing to obey... you must not be saved.
I'm very sorry to hear this.
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the only options are not lawless or sinless perfection. Nonsense...
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
This is the typical mind games and evasion strategy. Is there no end to this? Look, if ya wanna just believe Jesus is the son of God and tell people they can live as they please and still be saved somehow, that God is gonna take them home early or some of that stuff the modern day dual nature gnostics are preaching in the churches you should just find some older manuscripts that remove all those verses that yall dance around and there ya go.
You are equating not doing good to your neighbor and the like with the vile sins that disqualify you from the kingdom (1 corinthians 6:9-10 & galatians 5:20-21)
Just because people arent perfect in knowledge doesnt mean they aint obeying. Its simple, Jesus said love God with all your heart mind and soul.
People make mistakes yes, but ya not walking down the street whistling away and all of a sudden fall into idolatry or adultery that just dont happen. There is a difference between a MISTAKE and WILLFUL REBELLION.
You are equating not doing good to your neighbor and the like with the vile sins that disqualify you from the kingdom (1 corinthians 6:9-10 & galatians 5:20-21)
Just because people arent perfect in knowledge doesnt mean they aint obeying. Its simple, Jesus said love God with all your heart mind and soul.
People make mistakes yes, but ya not walking down the street whistling away and all of a sudden fall into idolatry or adultery that just dont happen. There is a difference between a MISTAKE and WILLFUL REBELLION.
======================================
after 'conversion', we come to realize that Jesus truly does Love and accept us,
and forgives us ALL of our 'past-sins'...
what our continual/walk/growth in Him is about, is to listen/obey our Holy Saviour
as He teaches us how to forgive/Love and accept ourselves as we grow in our 'new lives,
day-by-day',.,in our new relationship with Him, and just what this entails...
we must be loyal, honorable, thankful, respectful of all that He desires from/for each of us,
and in every way...
after 'conversion', we come to realize that Jesus truly does Love and accept us,
and forgives us ALL of our 'past-sins'...
what our continual/walk/growth in Him is about, is to listen/obey our Holy Saviour
as He teaches us how to forgive/Love and accept ourselves as we grow in our 'new lives,
day-by-day',.,in our new relationship with Him, and just what this entails...
we must be loyal, honorable, thankful, respectful of all that He desires from/for each of us,
and in every way...
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I most certainly stand by my words. Lets hear what you think.
Which I am.
Obviously.
As we all are.
Already stated.
[QUOTE then you must not be saved.][/QUOTE]
Why? What in the above statements mentions salvation? Your formula proves nothing except that failing to obey equals not 100% obedience.
Failing to obey a command of God does have its consequences. That consequence is determined by God.
Let me explain. God commanded the Israelites to march around the city of Jericho in order for the city to be given to them. If the command was not obeyed would God turn His back on the promise of giving the land of Canaan to them? No, it would have been simply another command of God that was not obeyed. Jericho would possibly be taken the hard way, a long siege or bypassed to be a thorn in their side like the Gibeonites.
Disobedience has its penalty and God punishes according to His will.
Adam and Eve received the stated punishment for their eating of the fruit. They were not destroyed, that was not the stated punishment. If I am not 100% obedient I too am not destroyed but depending on what I disobey I will miss out on the benefit of obedience. Such as not having my sins forgiven by not being baptized (Acts 2:38), not having Jesus confess my name before the Father if I refuse to confess Him before men (Matthew 10:32) and so on.
Regardless of if its faith or obedience none of us are 100% perfect. We will all go before the Lord imperfect and humble. We will not be judged by our percentage of perfection but God will judge us by our heart.
Is obedience needed to be saved, of course. It is you, Maxwell who is injecting the 100% scale.
Which I am.
Obviously.
As we all are.
Already stated.
[QUOTE then you must not be saved.][/QUOTE]
Why? What in the above statements mentions salvation? Your formula proves nothing except that failing to obey equals not 100% obedience.
Failing to obey a command of God does have its consequences. That consequence is determined by God.
Let me explain. God commanded the Israelites to march around the city of Jericho in order for the city to be given to them. If the command was not obeyed would God turn His back on the promise of giving the land of Canaan to them? No, it would have been simply another command of God that was not obeyed. Jericho would possibly be taken the hard way, a long siege or bypassed to be a thorn in their side like the Gibeonites.
Disobedience has its penalty and God punishes according to His will.
Adam and Eve received the stated punishment for their eating of the fruit. They were not destroyed, that was not the stated punishment. If I am not 100% obedient I too am not destroyed but depending on what I disobey I will miss out on the benefit of obedience. Such as not having my sins forgiven by not being baptized (Acts 2:38), not having Jesus confess my name before the Father if I refuse to confess Him before men (Matthew 10:32) and so on.
Regardless of if its faith or obedience none of us are 100% perfect. We will all go before the Lord imperfect and humble. We will not be judged by our percentage of perfection but God will judge us by our heart.
Is obedience needed to be saved, of course. It is you, Maxwell who is injecting the 100% scale.
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