Atheists - Doubt Your Doubts
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Science is really just a methodology for either verifying or falsifying claims. It's beauty is that it's logical/mathematical/observational rule based, strict, rigorous and attempts to minimize the biases and error that are inherent to human nature. A mistake is made though in believing that THIS is the only way to obtain knowledge. Clearly it's not, people knew things long before scientific methods were ever put to the street and people know many things now without scientifically testing them, but if done correctly, scientific methodology is more reliable, more objective, and more self corrective than more typical methods used to obtain knowledge. This is the beauty of it and it's real usefulness. But if I can only know something after scientifically testing that something, then I can't really know anything at all.
To which the theist should say, "yeah, it just takes faith" or "so, it's science of the gaps." If something can't be scientifically proven/disproven, then the conclusion should be either "I don't know" or "can't be proven/disproven scientifically." There are many things that science can't prove or disprove and/or will never be able to prove/disprove; we just have to live with that fact.
To which the theist should say, "yeah, it just takes faith" or "so, it's science of the gaps." If something can't be scientifically proven/disproven, then the conclusion should be either "I don't know" or "can't be proven/disproven scientifically." There are many things that science can't prove or disprove and/or will never be able to prove/disprove; we just have to live with that fact.
I ran across this interesting article today:
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
What do you think?
Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that’s not a joke
What do you think?
M
From what I've seen, Atheist don't even make the attempt to look for the proof of God or Jesus Christ. They're just trying to cause havoc and start trouble without any knowledge of religion to back them up. I'm sure y'all know that the only scripture that they'll throw at us when under a religious debate is anything that has to do with rape, death, hate, or anything negative. But on the contrary, you can say the same thing about Christians... When it comes to certain problems of the world Christians don't listen to what certain people have to say and instead throw hateful judgement on what they don't know and what they fear. Another thing that stirs trouble from the outside is when a Christian can't own up to the problems that they've caused in society. Christian's tend to publicly point fingers at atheist or people that represent fear in humanity and throw the judgment card at these people to make themselves look better. That's one of the reasons why Atheist are Atheist because Christian's don't want to listen to what they have to say, they just judge and damn them. When Christian's do that, that's the only view that the atheist see when they think of Christianity.
You have your far left extreme and your far right extreme on both sides... Your far left only observes and tries to shake up the far right and your far right only observes and tries to shake up the far left. It's an endless war between the extremes and both sides just need to learn how stop what they're doing, listen to each other, and learn from each other. Once they do, maybe we will get somewhere... Haha
A lot of non-believers have wonderful views on life, but Christian's do not want to listen to them because of what they represent on the outside. Same could be said if you twist the characters around. One of my favorite public speakers is Marilyn Manson, he's such a loving dude with a big heart and full understanding of his surroundings. But extremist Christian's only judge him from the outside and do not understand what he's about as a person because they fear him and his art of music and entertainment. Yes he does what he does on stage and does corrupt a lot of people, but whether you want to believe it or not, those within his crowd are the people that lost their faith due to the hateful judgement that has been thrown at them by Christianity. Christian's can't own up to it and blame him for any bad thing that occurs through the youth whether it's the Columbine massacre or whatever... To me Marilyn Manson is a gift from God because he weens out the real Christians from the Modern Day Pharisees. These Modern Day Pharisees who judge these people do not put Jesus Christ and his word first but instead plot their own scheme to bring them down to make themselves look good before God and they do so through hate and judgement. Since the start of Rock n Roll or whatever placed the fear into the Christian society, that's why our society and youth is where it's at today with the lack of love peace and Christianity.
Observing where we are today as a society, we're actually changing for the better and more Christians are coming out and being the warriors that God intends us to be. When I say warrior's, they're more tactical with their approach on addressing issues and bringing them to the light rather than pointing the finger and throwing judgement. Where we are at right now as a Christian Society is greater than where we were 20-40-60-80 years ago and we're progressively getting better if you look at history. When I say getting better, I mean more Christians are learning to have an open mind and listen to people and help them through their personal trials. It's wonderful and I only see greater things to come, i'm looking forward to seeing how much out society has progressed 50 years from now.
Sorry I can't be one sided with this argument, I have to be the voice of the voiceless to make everyone open their minds and think a little. If you're offended with what I had to say, take sometime to look in the mirror and reflect your own life. Not speaking for Christian's but to the very few extremist and pharisees viewing this thread, if you want to touch a non-believers heart you have to start with love, compassion, and understanding, not judgment or damnation... Be the reflection of Jesus, not the reflection of the Devil...
To those who like to throw stones at my post, hopefully you read the whole thing this time instead of stopping mid way and throwing your shade...
God Bless Everyone
-Moose_Almighty-
You have your far left extreme and your far right extreme on both sides... Your far left only observes and tries to shake up the far right and your far right only observes and tries to shake up the far left. It's an endless war between the extremes and both sides just need to learn how stop what they're doing, listen to each other, and learn from each other. Once they do, maybe we will get somewhere... Haha
A lot of non-believers have wonderful views on life, but Christian's do not want to listen to them because of what they represent on the outside. Same could be said if you twist the characters around. One of my favorite public speakers is Marilyn Manson, he's such a loving dude with a big heart and full understanding of his surroundings. But extremist Christian's only judge him from the outside and do not understand what he's about as a person because they fear him and his art of music and entertainment. Yes he does what he does on stage and does corrupt a lot of people, but whether you want to believe it or not, those within his crowd are the people that lost their faith due to the hateful judgement that has been thrown at them by Christianity. Christian's can't own up to it and blame him for any bad thing that occurs through the youth whether it's the Columbine massacre or whatever... To me Marilyn Manson is a gift from God because he weens out the real Christians from the Modern Day Pharisees. These Modern Day Pharisees who judge these people do not put Jesus Christ and his word first but instead plot their own scheme to bring them down to make themselves look good before God and they do so through hate and judgement. Since the start of Rock n Roll or whatever placed the fear into the Christian society, that's why our society and youth is where it's at today with the lack of love peace and Christianity.
Observing where we are today as a society, we're actually changing for the better and more Christians are coming out and being the warriors that God intends us to be. When I say warrior's, they're more tactical with their approach on addressing issues and bringing them to the light rather than pointing the finger and throwing judgement. Where we are at right now as a Christian Society is greater than where we were 20-40-60-80 years ago and we're progressively getting better if you look at history. When I say getting better, I mean more Christians are learning to have an open mind and listen to people and help them through their personal trials. It's wonderful and I only see greater things to come, i'm looking forward to seeing how much out society has progressed 50 years from now.
Sorry I can't be one sided with this argument, I have to be the voice of the voiceless to make everyone open their minds and think a little. If you're offended with what I had to say, take sometime to look in the mirror and reflect your own life. Not speaking for Christian's but to the very few extremist and pharisees viewing this thread, if you want to touch a non-believers heart you have to start with love, compassion, and understanding, not judgment or damnation... Be the reflection of Jesus, not the reflection of the Devil...
To those who like to throw stones at my post, hopefully you read the whole thing this time instead of stopping mid way and throwing your shade...
God Bless Everyone
-Moose_Almighty-
I think the article is saying that we are all hardwired for metaphysical beliefs of some sort.
My essential thesis on this topic is this: for deists and theists, belief in the existence of god(s) is axiomatic (as are metaphysical beliefs for Buddhists, nature worshipers, etc../whatever). It's not a belief that is usually held by way of a sound and valid argument. I suppose there could be a good argument for it, but I just haven't seen one that either holds up too well under close scrutiny. The kind of ideas put out in the article would seem to be supportive - belief in some sort of metaphysical reality (whatever you want to call it) is hardwired into us. We (as in, humanity as a whole) can't seem to help but believe in something higher/beyond us. Basically, religious sorts of beliefs serve a valuable purpose in terms of biological functions of survival and reproduction.
Since we're on a Christian site, it could be argued that the author of Genesis understood things in a very similar way. In Genesis, God's first command to humanity was basically reproduction and survival:
Gen1:28 God blessed[SUP] [/SUP]them and said[SUP] [/SUP]to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it![SUP] [/SUP]Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.” 1:29 Then God said, “I now[SUP] [/SUP]give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the entire earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.[SUP] [/SUP]1:30 And to all the animals of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to all the creatures that move on the ground – everything that has the breath of life in it – I give[SUP] [/SUP]green plant for food.” It was so.
Most of the commands in the OT, even those that seem a little arbitrary, can often be understood in terms of the preservation and promotion of life - or survival and reproduction, however you want to phrase it. Even if you think some of it's a little wrongheaded or the consequences of disobedience too ancient and barbaric - it seems clear that most of them are attempts and preservation, promotion and creation of life.
My essential thesis on this topic is this: for deists and theists, belief in the existence of god(s) is axiomatic (as are metaphysical beliefs for Buddhists, nature worshipers, etc../whatever). It's not a belief that is usually held by way of a sound and valid argument. I suppose there could be a good argument for it, but I just haven't seen one that either holds up too well under close scrutiny. The kind of ideas put out in the article would seem to be supportive - belief in some sort of metaphysical reality (whatever you want to call it) is hardwired into us. We (as in, humanity as a whole) can't seem to help but believe in something higher/beyond us. Basically, religious sorts of beliefs serve a valuable purpose in terms of biological functions of survival and reproduction.
Since we're on a Christian site, it could be argued that the author of Genesis understood things in a very similar way. In Genesis, God's first command to humanity was basically reproduction and survival:
Gen1:28 God blessed[SUP] [/SUP]them and said[SUP] [/SUP]to them, “Be fruitful and multiply! Fill the earth and subdue it![SUP] [/SUP]Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that moves on the ground.” 1:29 Then God said, “I now[SUP] [/SUP]give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the entire earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.[SUP] [/SUP]1:30 And to all the animals of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to all the creatures that move on the ground – everything that has the breath of life in it – I give[SUP] [/SUP]green plant for food.” It was so.
Most of the commands in the OT, even those that seem a little arbitrary, can often be understood in terms of the preservation and promotion of life - or survival and reproduction, however you want to phrase it. Even if you think some of it's a little wrongheaded or the consequences of disobedience too ancient and barbaric - it seems clear that most of them are attempts and preservation, promotion and creation of life.
Let me tell you, I have spent years searching for God, and yes, I am an atheist. In my view Jesus was an historical person, but the Christ figure he was made out to be is not historical, as I see it. Do I look for God anymore? No. Many atheists reach the point were they stop searching. The evidence for the atheist position seems, in my mind, overwhelming.
When it comes to religion some atheists are very knowledgeable. My youngest son is a very good example of that. He is on this forum under the name of Fingy, but he has few post as he sees little point in chatting with people who are so poorly informed (his words). My eldest son, also an atheist, has never been on a religious forum. He has no interest, and only a meager understanding of religion. He's an atheist because that is how I raised him.
When I was born in the very early 1950s Fox News and the Moral Majority did not exist and being in Canada I knew nothing of American politics. I first began to doubt about age 10, before the Beatles rocked our world. The point is none of these things you mention led to my atheism which became full blown at age sixteen.
O
I have learned something new today.
I didn't realize that a bona-fide or confirmed 'athiest'
would spend the majority of their lives 'searching for God.
maybe it's just me, but it does seem like a contradiction of some sort???
obviously, there does seem to be an element of (HOPE) here===
and this brings me joy!
I didn't realize that a bona-fide or confirmed 'athiest'
would spend the majority of their lives 'searching for God.
maybe it's just me, but it does seem like a contradiction of some sort???
obviously, there does seem to be an element of (HOPE) here===
and this brings me joy!
The apparent progress over time as seen through the lens of evolutionary theory looks like it is purpose-driven rather than random and aimless.
Natural selection is a euphemism for early death. Death destroys. It doesn't create.
What do we really know about the contents of "junk DNA"? Perhaps, it has dormant purposes.
I read that at the time of the theoretical big bang there was an explosion of energy that traveled faster than the speed of light. I read that prisms can bend light. I read that black holes can reduce the speed of light to zero or less. Yet, many will give an age to the universe based on a constant speed of light.
I also read about Einstein and a space-time continuum.
Evolutionary theory seems plausible for some details a cosmological worldview but not for all.
If light isn't constant and time isn't constant, where is the reference point?
God provides a reference point.
If the human mind and will and emotions and spirit were made in the image of God, then we have hope in their quality.
If the human mind and will and emotion and spirit are the result of aimless randomness, how do you know that your mind and any intuitive powers are working correctly?
Natural selection is a euphemism for early death. Death destroys. It doesn't create.
What do we really know about the contents of "junk DNA"? Perhaps, it has dormant purposes.
I read that at the time of the theoretical big bang there was an explosion of energy that traveled faster than the speed of light. I read that prisms can bend light. I read that black holes can reduce the speed of light to zero or less. Yet, many will give an age to the universe based on a constant speed of light.
I also read about Einstein and a space-time continuum.
Evolutionary theory seems plausible for some details a cosmological worldview but not for all.
If light isn't constant and time isn't constant, where is the reference point?
God provides a reference point.
If the human mind and will and emotions and spirit were made in the image of God, then we have hope in their quality.
If the human mind and will and emotion and spirit are the result of aimless randomness, how do you know that your mind and any intuitive powers are working correctly?
It's irrelevant. Evolution is an accepted scientific theory. It happened.
There was no explosion of energy, there was a transformation in form, to bring expansion. Prisms do not bend light, they refract light. Black holes do not reduce the speed of light, gravitational pull creates a visible effect called lensing, which is essentially protons getting ''heavier'', but every single thing in the universe with gravity produces this effect to a certain degree -- even you. It isn't an exception to a physical law, it's an extreme example of an already established one.
Light's speed never changes, the number of refractions (thus the time it takes to travel) changes depending on the circumstance. Light's speed itself doesn't ever change, the observer's circumstance does.
Evolution is more than plausible given current scientific knowledge. It's, for all intents and purposes, proven.
If my human mind is from randomness, then so is yours. If it's from God, then so is yours. We are from the same physical origin, whatever that may be -- God or evolution. That origin itself is not changed by the beliefs of the individual, thus, if my intuitive powers are not working correctly because of my physical origin, then neither are your intuitive powers working correctly. The question is moot. You assume my opinion on my origin dictates the efficacy of my intuition consequential from my origins, but if humans come from evolution or design, then we all come form them, and we're equally inflicted with the psychological effect of that origin.
Though, evidence weighed, evolution simply seems more plausible than creation by omnipresent being.
There was no explosion of energy, there was a transformation in form, to bring expansion. Prisms do not bend light, they refract light. Black holes do not reduce the speed of light, gravitational pull creates a visible effect called lensing, which is essentially protons getting ''heavier'', but every single thing in the universe with gravity produces this effect to a certain degree -- even you. It isn't an exception to a physical law, it's an extreme example of an already established one.
Light's speed never changes, the number of refractions (thus the time it takes to travel) changes depending on the circumstance. Light's speed itself doesn't ever change, the observer's circumstance does.
Evolution is more than plausible given current scientific knowledge. It's, for all intents and purposes, proven.
If my human mind is from randomness, then so is yours. If it's from God, then so is yours. We are from the same physical origin, whatever that may be -- God or evolution. That origin itself is not changed by the beliefs of the individual, thus, if my intuitive powers are not working correctly because of my physical origin, then neither are your intuitive powers working correctly. The question is moot. You assume my opinion on my origin dictates the efficacy of my intuition consequential from my origins, but if humans come from evolution or design, then we all come form them, and we're equally inflicted with the psychological effect of that origin.
Though, evidence weighed, evolution simply seems more plausible than creation by omnipresent being.
I think, regardless of where you stand on the theological divide, no one has an air tight epistemology. If you think you do, you must be God. Hi
In other words while atheists no doubt have doubts that should be doubted, theists do as well. The bigger problem than having doubtful doubts is pretending you don't (or worse, simply being oblivious to them).
In other words while atheists no doubt have doubts that should be doubted, theists do as well. The bigger problem than having doubtful doubts is pretending you don't (or worse, simply being oblivious to them).