Athiesm & Charles Darwin

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Nov 9, 2014
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#41
I usually give a reading list of recommended books. I forgot to do that in my last post on the Nazis and how they rejected evolution and Darwin. But, since there is a lot of overlap in the 3 lies in the false statement "Charles Darwin was not only racist, but influenced Eugenics in Nazi Germany through his writings" that I will wait until all three are debunked.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#42



Darwin and eugenics - creation.com

[h=1]Darwin and eugenics[/h] [h=2]Darwin was indeed a ‘Social Darwinist’[/h] by Bill Muehlenberg
[h=5]Published: 18 May 2007, 18 March 2009 (GMT+10)[/h] Photo Wikipedia.org
Charles Darwin in 1880

Poor old Darwin. So misunderstood by his followers. He was actually a nice old chap with fairly tame ideas, but his extremist disciples took his thoughts a bit too far. At least that is the spin being put out by many Darwinists and atheists today.
While more sober minds see a clear line between Darwin’s ideas and many of the horrible social experiments of the twentieth century, including Nazism, defenders of Darwin argue that at best there is no connection, or at worst any such episodes are aberrations or perversions of what Darwin believed.
But is that the case? Most people are not even aware of the full title of his 1859 masterwork: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life. That last half of the title, often overlooked, sounds like it could come straight out of a Ku Klux Klan manual. [Ed. note added July 2014: In the Origin subtitle, Darwin would have primarily intended the word ‘races’ to refer to groupings of plants and animals. However, he did indicate his belief that man was essentially just one more animal by writing in it of “the differences between the races of man, which are so strongly marked” (in the context of variation and selection). Though this hints at the racist implications of his theory applied to humans, these only became truly explicit in his later book, The Descent of Man, as highlighted in this article.]
A very interesting article appeared lately in the decidedly liberal religious journal Commonweal, taking on this notion of the ‘gentle Darwin’.[SUP]1[/SUP] The anti-creationist Peter Quinn argues in that Darwin was not quite so squeaky clean when it comes to dangerous social implications of his theory.
Quinn argues that Darwin’s biological theory had very real ramifications for social theory. Says Quinn:



‘Social Darwinism’ is often taken to be something extraneous, an ugly concretion added to the pure Darwinian corpus after the event, tarnishing Darwin’s image. But his notebooks make plain that competition, free trade, imperialism, racial extermination, and sexual inequality were written into the equation from the start






‘Adrian Desmond and James Moore in their 1991 biography, Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist, make clear that natural selection was intended as more than a theory of life’s origins. “‘Social Darwinism’ is often taken to be something extraneous, an ugly concretion added to the pure Darwinian corpus after the event, tarnishing Darwin’s image,” they write. “But his notebooks make plain that competition, free trade, imperialism, racial extermination, and sexual inequality were written into the equation from the start—Darwinism was invented to explain human society.”’​
Indeed, the whole ugly world of eugenics needs to be seen for what it really is: very much an outgrowth of Darwinian thought. As Quinn notes:
‘Darwin played a prime role in bringing about a fateful confusion between cultural and racial differences, conferring new scientific authority and intellectual legitimacy on theories of human inferiority central to eugenics, the most destructive medical movement in history.’​
Indeed, ‘by the time Darwin published the second edition of The Descent of Man in 1874, he had added Francis Galton’s eugenic theories and Herbert Spencer’s “survival of the fittest” social philosophy to the mix, calling Hereditary Genius, Galton’s treatise on the biological nature of intelligence and moral character, “remarkable” and Spencer “our greatest philosopher”.’ Note that Galton, the Father of Eugenics, was Darwin’s first cousin, and indebted to his theories.
He continues:



Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new scientific justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as inferior






‘Darwin’s work is filled with references to the work of those involved in creating a radical new “scientific” justification for labeling races, classes, and individuals as “inferior”. … Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’​
Writing in a manner in which even Hitler would be proud, Darwin made it quite clear that certain races are to be preferred over others. Says Quinn:
‘All races, as it turns out, descend from the same ancestor but some are more descended than others. “I do not think that the Rev. Mr. Zincke takes an exaggerated view,” Darwin declares, “when he says: ‘All other series of events—as that which resulted in the culture of mind in Greece, and that which resulted in the empire of Rome—only appear to have purpose and value when viewed in connection with, or rather as subsidiary to … the great stream of Anglo-Saxon emigration to the west.’”’
Photo Wikipedia.org​
Francis Galton in 1850s or early 1860s

‘Sounding more like Colonel Blimp than Lieutenant Columbo, Darwin envisions a far grimmer future for races or sub-species less fit than the Anglo-Saxon. “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world,” he predicts. “At the same time the anthropological apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state … even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla.”’
‘Darwin is cavalier about the extermination of lesser breeds. He estimates that minimal force will be required, for “when civilized nations come into contact with barbarians the struggle is short, except where a deadly climate gives its aid to the native race.”’
His followers were quite happy to run with such ideas, and Darwin would not seem to disapprove. Consider his son:
‘In 1912, in his presidential address to the First International Congress of Eugenics, a landmark gathering in London of racial biologists from Germany, the United States, and other parts of the world, Major Leonard Darwin, Charles Darwin’s son, trumpeted the spread of eugenics and evolution. As described by Nicholas Wright Gillham in his A Life of Francis Galton, Major Darwin foresaw the day when “eugenics would become not only a grail, a substitute for religion, as Galton had hoped, but a ‘paramount duty’ whose tenets would presumably become enforceable.” The major repeated his father’s admonition that, though the crudest workings of natural selection must be mitigated by “the spirit of civilization”, society must encourage breeding among the best stock and prevent it among the worst “without further delay”.’​
Concludes Quinn:
‘Educated at the best schools, winners in a global competition that has driven anonymous millions to the wall, the Gentle Darwinians’ effort to turn Charles Darwin into the sainted founder of a humanist creed undoubtedly reflects their own high position in today’s world order. But unlike their Victorian predecessors, they prefer a Darwin devoid of his social theories and his role in linking evolution with rank prejudice.’​
It is time Darwin is taken off his pedestal and treated to rigorous and penetrating scrutiny. Numerous works have been penned on this subject. Richard Weikart’s From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany would be a good place to begin for those who are really interested in such matters. The truth is, bad ideas have bad consequences, and Darwin had his fair share of them.

 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#43
Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’



Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."
 
Nov 9, 2014
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#44
Next, it is a lie that Charles Darwin supported "Eugenics." It is a secondary lie that Eugenics is supported by evolutionary theory.

The primary lie is easily exposed. Charles Darwin opposed the "Eugenics Society" founded by his distant cousin (by marriage) Francis Galton. He did not reject the stated goal, which was the elimination of hereditary disease. We do this today with a success that Charles Darwin could not imagine. But, when Galton proposed his idea of a Eugenics "good birth" Society, Darwin told him that it would fail. Darwin had three reasons that he offered to Galton that the Eugenics movement would fail.

First, we should be clear about what the Eugenics Society was. They had a primary goal: eliminated inherited genetic disease. Secondarily, they thought to "improve the moral character" of humanity. They had the idea to raise money to pay people to marry and have children from approved lists, and to pay other people not to have children at all.

Darwin wrote to Galton, in a letter (Cambridge University #412, January 4th, 1873: Darwin to Galton) that he thought that the idea would be a failure.
Darwin offered a little solice, "Though I see so much difficulty, the object seems a grand one; and you have pointed out the sole feasible, yet I fear utopian, plan of procedure in improving the human race."
But, he then bores in with his greatest critizims. These are on two major failures;

"I am not, however, so hopeful as you. Your proposed Society would have awfully laborious work, and I doubt whether you could ever get efficient workers."
If you are unfamiliar with British 19th century writing, Darwin is saying that people will lie about their families health, and wealty families would buy their place on the "register." Darwin makes this explicit on the effect of hereditary titles, and un-taxed wealth back in 1872, "Primogeniture with entailed estates is a more direct evil, though it may formerly have been a great advantage by the creation of a dominant class, and any government is better than anarchy. The eldest sons, though they may be weak in body or mind, generally marry, whilst the younger sons, however superior in these respects, do not so generally marry."

But the greatest difficulty, I think, would be in deciding who deserved to be on the register. How few are above mediocrity in health, strength, morals and intellect; and how difficult to judge on these latter heads. As far as I see, within the same large superior family, only a few of the children would deserve to be on the register; and these would naturally stick to their own families, so that the superior children of distinct families would have no good chance of associating much and forming a caste" (caste was Galton's term for a "superior" family).
Regarding "superior" races, Darwin rejected that contention as well, "I do not see that an orthognathous face would cost more than a prognathous face; or a good morale than a bad one." Again, for those unfamiliar with the late 1800s use of British English, an "orthognathous face" is the European jutting Square Jaw, and "prognathous face" was the Asian, or African jaw. Darwin had much earlier shown that evolutionary theory rejected the notion that there were separate human species, but that comes next in my exposure of these too common creationist lies.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#45
Next, it is a lie that Charles Darwin supported "Eugenics."
Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’

 
Nov 9, 2014
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#46
"Peter Quinn?"

You cite a novelist, and editorial writer as if he were an expert on biology?

No wonder you have no idea about the facts.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#47
Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class” is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’

"Peter Quinn?"

You cite a novelist, and editorial writer as if he were an expert on biology?

No wonder you have no idea about the facts.
Yes no idea. You must be a grandmaster shriner lol

But umm, Darwins own words were used to show who he was.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#48
But is that the case? Most people are not even aware of the full title of his 1859 masterwork: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.
Sorry Hizikyah, but the author you quoted is being completely dishonest.

The word "Races" does not refer to differing races of people, it refers to different species of animals. You would know this if you read The Origin of Species.

Are you willing to admit you're wrong, or are you going to keep spreading this misinformation without looking into my correction?

The author you quoted is a scumbag and I highly advise you to talk to actual scientists who read Darwin's works rather than referring to a corrupt imbecile with an agenda - one who has no problem lying to his audience.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#49
Sorry Hizikyah, but the author you quoted is being completely dishonest.

The word "Races" does not refer to differing races of people, it refers to different species of animals. You would know this if you read The Origin of Species.

Are you willing to admit you're wrong, or are you going to keep spreading this misinformation without looking into my correction?
But according to Darwin we evolved from animals so by "natural evolution"/extension it would apply to humans.

Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’

"increase in the number of men of a superior class

nothing to see here right?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#50
Sorry Hizikyah, but the author you quoted is being completely dishonest.

The word "Races" does not refer to differing races of people, it refers to different species of animals. You would know this if you read The Origin of Species.

Are you willing to admit you're wrong, or are you going to keep spreading this misinformation without looking into my correction?

The author you quoted is a scumbag and I highly advise you to talk to actual scientists who read Darwin's works rather than referring to a corrupt imbecile with an agenda - one who has no problem lying to his audience.
The theory of evolution...

theory

the facts of this, theory... have changed a number of times in my short lifetime.

How is it possible for facts to change so fluidly and frequently?

AND LOL still be considered LOL factual! Its too much. abstract facts.

Any field of science would be laughed out of existence if it had half the holes evolution does.

Evolution does not have a single piece of physical evidence.

Am I able to dismantle common sense when considering this if I use eloquent speech?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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#51
The theory of evolution...

theory

the facts of this, theory... have changed a number of times in my short lifetime.

How is it possible for facts to change so fluidly and frequently?

AND LOL still be considered LOL factual! Its too much. abstract facts.

Any field of science would be laughed out of existence if it had half the holes evolution does.

Evolution does not have a single piece of physical evidence.

Am I able to dismantle common sense when considering this if I use eloquent speech?
Eppur Si Muove
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#53
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins

Clinton Richard Dawkins /ˈdɔːkɨnz/, DSc, FRS, FRSL (born 26 March 1941) is an ethologist, evolutionary biologist,[SUP][1][/SUP] and writer. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford,[SUP][2][/SUP] and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008.[SUP][3]

[/SUP]Dawkins founded the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science to promote the teaching of evolution and to counteract those who advocate classroom programs against evolution.



It will only take 2min
[video=youtube;BoncJBrrdQ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoncJBrrdQ8[/video]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#54
[video=youtube;fiJdfCiWo4I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJdfCiWo4I[/video]
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#55
The image you posted has nothing to do with Charles Darwin but a select group of people who believed eugenics could be used to improve the human race. Unfortunately this does include Darwin's son. But the theory of evolution is merely the observation of reality, it has literally nothing to do with how people apply the theory.

For example, we observe many species of animals that eat their young. Does this mean it's acceptable for us to eat babies? No. Regardless with what people intend to do with knowledge of evolution, it doesn't change the fact that evolution has been proven.

Now onto the quote mines!

Darwin writes in The Descent of Man that “a most important obstacle in civilized countries to anincrease in the number of men of a superior class is the tendency of society’s “very poor and reckless”, who are “often degraded by vice”, to increase faster than “the provident and generally virtuous members”.’
It's funny how we moved from The Origin of Species to The Decent of Man.

A most important obstacle in civilised countries to an increase in
the number of men of a superior class has been strongly insisted on byMr. Greg and Mr. Galton,* namely, the fact that the very poor andreckless, who are often degraded by vice, almost invariably marryearly, whilst the careful and frugal, who are generally otherwisevirtuous, marry late in life, so that they may be able to supportthemselves and their children in comfort. Those who marry earlyproduce within a given period not only a greater number ofgenerations, but, as shewn by Dr. Duncan,*(2) they produce many morechildren. The children, moreover, that are borne by mothers during theprime of life are heavier and larger, and therefore probably morevigorous, than those born at other periods. Thus the reckless,degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase ata quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Oras Mr. Greg puts the case: "The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishmanmultiplies like rabbits: the frugal, foreseeing, self-respecting,ambitious Scot, stern in his morality, spiritual in his faith,sagacious and disciplined in his intelligence, passes his best yearsin struggle and in celibacy, marries late, and leaves few behindhim. Given a land originally peopled by a thousand Saxons and athousand Celts- and in a dozen generations five-sixths of thepopulation would be Celts, but five-sixths of the property, of thepower, of the intellect, would belong to the one-sixth of Saxonsthat remained. In the eternal 'struggle for existence,' it would bethe inferior and less favoured race that had prevailed- and prevailed by virtue not of its good qualities but of its faults."
-Descent of Man, Charles Darwin

The quote you posted was Darwin reiterating the words of other men. Darwin then goes on to refute these claims in the next paragraph.

Honestly, how right or wrong Darwin is doesn't really matter since nobody claims Darwin was infallible and correct about everything - I'm just saying this now so I don't have to waste time going over it later.

The theory of evolution...

theory
The word "theory" has a different meaning in science than it does in common vernacular. In science, a theory DOES NOT refer to a hunch or an educated guess. It refers to an explanation based on tests and observation. This is why we still use the phrases gravitational theory, germ theory, heliocentric theory, etc.

the facts of this, theory... have changed a number of times in my short lifetime.
Literally all scientific theories change over time. If you're trying to argue that evolution isn't true because the theory keeps on changing, then you're essentially arguing that all of science isn't true.

Here is a brilliant essay called "The Relativity of Wrong". It explains how changes in science do not discredit science, but rather improves its credibility! If I may quote the following, "My answer to him was, "John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.""

Asimov - The Relativity of Wrong

How is it possible for facts to change so fluidly and frequently?
In science, nothing is considered 100% factual. Everything is subject to change. The thing about science is that even though we're constantly discovering new ways in which we were previously wrong, we're still getting close and closer to what is right. The essay I linked does a wonderful job explaining this.

Science is about accepting the best conclusions drawn from the evidence that's available to us and changing what we know based on new evidence down the road. To hold onto something as true and to never adapt to new evidence makes us ignorant, not smarter.

Any field of science would be laughed out of existence if it had half the holes evolution does.

Evolution does not have a single piece of physical evidence.
Have you ever bothered to pick up a science book and read it, or are creationist sources the only exposure you have to evolutionary theory?

Dawkins founded the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science to promote the teaching of evolution and to counteract those who advocate classroom programs against evolution.



It will only take 2min
I've watched the video before and to the untrained observer, it would appear that Dawkins admitted Intelligent design to be quite plausible. But Dawkins is constantly speaking out against intelligent design, so why would he now start talking about how it's quite plausible? When you find a major contradiction in a person's ideology, you need to dig further.

Please watch the following video:

[video=youtube;8btZ0KWFFBg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8btZ0KWFFBg&list=UUljE1ODdSF7LS9xx9eWq0GQ[/video]

The video was edited to make it appear Dawkins supported the idea that intelligent design is a plausible explanation. This was achieved when Stein took Dawkin's response to a different statement or question, cut it, then pasted it after an entirely different question.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#56
Please make sure you read: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/103175-athiesm-charles-darwin-3.html#post1786656

You then post a video of Banana Man Comfort "stumping" laymen and professors with questions. The problem is, it's obvious there's a lot of footage he's leaving out. He's guilty of the same thing Stein's guilty of, editing videos to make it appear that he's stumping these people when really he's quote mining them and leaving out many of their explanations.

Here's one example in which he's been busted:

[video=youtube;GW05npbQHVs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW05npbQHVs&list=UUljE1ODdSF7LS9xx9eWq0GQ[/video]

This video proves Comfort's dishonesty.

Not only do we have evidence that Ray Comfort is intentionally dishonest in his video, but it's odd that we don't hear any more explanations from the professors he's questioned - meaning that it's very likely they were quote mined as well. All of this is plenty of evidence to completely disregard Comfort's original video and, if you ask me, disregard anything Ray ever has to say about anything regarding things he disagrees with.
 
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Feb 16, 2014
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#57
Sorry about the triple post, but I forgot to link this video earlier:

[video=youtube;07NMglQX6gE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07NMglQX6gE[/video]

This video goes over quotes and cutaways on T.V., and certain things you should watch out for when you watch interviews.
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#58
So? This doesn't prove evolution is false, it just proves that there are atheists that don't accept evolution. Some Christians accept evolution, does this prove evolution to be true? No, it just proves some Christians accept evolution.



You're right, atheists do sometimes make incorrect statements about theists.



This doesn't change the fact that he was a Christian.



He believed in God and in Jesus as the son of God. He was a Christian. He didn't think himself as "God" either, but rather he thought himself to be an incredibly powerful man.

Hitler was likely a Christian whether you like it or not. But it doesn't even matter if Hitler was a Christian or not. His actions did not represent the views of atheists or Christians. And even if Hitler wasn't a "true" Christian, he announced that God was the creator of the Earth and professed a belief in Jesus. Whatever you call this, it's a form of Christianity.

Stalin was an atheist. I don't try to make up excuses as to why he's not a "true" atheist. I simply point out that it's possible for some insane sociopaths to lack a belief in gods. This doesn't mean all atheists are communists or support the murder of anyone.



Let's suppose that Hitler really was an atheist and he lied about God. So what? This doesn't help your argument at all because it means Christians actually accepted his twisted version of what God wants.

You keep trying to distance Christianity from Hitler, but you just have to accept reality and simply remind people that Hitler doesn't represent Christian ideology. In fact, even critics of religion know that most Christians don't support Nazi ideas. Yet, Christians want to do everything they can to associate atheists with Nazism. Talk about dishonesty!



I didn't say most religious people were racist, I said most racists were religious. The reason I made such a broad statement is because the overwhelming number of people on earth are religious and this was no less true in the past. You're seeing this as an attack on Christian ideology, it's not. It's simply a statement that slavery came about in religious environments and that the overwhelming number of people who supported slavery were in fact religious. But, since almost everyone was religious, the overwhelming number of anti-slavery advocates were also religious. Atheists made up for such a small number of people that you can't blame atheists for slavery.



We believe a number of different things. As Leannaix said, the only similarity between us is that none of us believe in any gods.

I know I didn't give much of an answer, but your question is actually quite vague. Can you be more specific?

It was my feeble attempt at trying to get the thread back on track..you know "Atheism and Darwin". Maybe Darwin's views are outdated
 
H

hopesprings

Guest
#59
That's all these threads ever turn into because theists make ignorant and ridiculous claims about what an atheist actually is and then it goes down hill from there.
Yah we should just ask you guys what it is you believe
Goes both ways tho
 
C

CRC

Guest
#60
Darwin theorized that living things were not created but, rather, evolved from previous forms of life by “natural selection in consequence of the struggle for existence.” Finally, man evolved from a kind of ape. Darwin claimed that it was a matter of “survival of the fittest.”
This theory amounts to a blatant denial of the Bible account of creation and man’s fall into sin. It would make Jesus’ ransom sacrifice and the Bible’s teachings about the Kingdom, the resurrection, everlasting life, and a paradise earth meaningless. Moreover, the evolution theory, if true, would relieve mankind of any moral responsibility to the Creator. In proposing “survival of the fittest,” the theory no doubt prepared the ground for Marxism, Fascism, and other ideologies to take root. The advocates of evolution must bear a heavy responsibility for much of the godlessness and suffering in the world today.—Psalm 14:1-4.