ATONEMENT

[Skinski7]

The sanctification taught in Reformed Theology is one of "sinning less" as opposed to "growing more." So whilst you might claim that "sanctification is a process" the meaning of that term is inclusive of ongoing wickedness in salvation.

For by one sacrifice he made perfect forever, those who are being made holy Heb 10:14

If you are being made holy, you are not perfect in the flesh, you are imperfect/you sin. However, your Father in Heaven sees you as perfect forever in the spiritual sense, as He sees the sacrifice His son made for you at Calvary, not your imperfections. The Father could not see you as perfect forever, even while you are being made Holy if Jesus only died for past sins.

Being made holy is in the context of GROWING in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, not sinning less.

Paul writes in Romans...

Obedience unto righteousness (Rom 6:16)
Righteousness unto holiness (Rom 6:19)
Holiness the end of which is eternal life (Rom 6:22)

There is NO REBELLION in that. There is a growth in knowledge, wisdom and understanding. Christians have CRUCIFIED THEIR FLESH and are no longer ruled by it. We are DEAD TO SIN and therefore DO NOT SERVE SIN. We have ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION THAT IS IN THE WORLD THROUGH LUST. If one has not then they are not saved.

Under the Penal Model "righteousness is purely a position" completely disconnected from "obedience" or a "heart yielded to God." Thus it is a mere "trust in a position" as opposed to "abiding in the Spirit of life." That is why there is no power in the gospel of Penal Substitution, there is no dynamic of "grace THROUGH faith," there is only "passive trust" and "waiting on God to change me." Thus Christian's are all viewed in different stages of "sinning less" and that is why the churches are full of carnality.


You can quote an misapply all the passages you want but NONE OF THEM argue in favour of ongoing wickedness in salvation. All you are doing is twisting the writings of Paul.

 

[michael56]

.

Righteousness is in DOING the right thing from a heart that is pure. .

How do you know what is the right thing according to God? Only through his commands. Therefore, however lengthy an argument you try and make to the contrary, you are saying a person is righteous before God if they obey His commands.

The Apostle Paul says righteousness comes apart from the law by faith in Christ, from first to last(the whole of your Christian life Rom 1:17

The problem with your teaching is this:

The power of sin is the law(or the penalty attached to the law if you break it to be exact) 1Cor15:56

You preach the penalty remains for the Christian, thereby putting the since in the position Paul was in Rom ch7

The penalty of sin, brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Hence, Rom 3:31, Rom 7:5, and Rom 6:14

 

[michael56]

Being made holy is in the context of GROWING in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, not sinning less.

.

If you are not perfectly holy, you are imperfect in your flesh, you commit sin. To use your words, however you try to misapply that, that fact remains

 

[Skinski7]

How do you know what is the right thing according to God?

Through His grace which teaches us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

We are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously, and godly NOW.

Look at what Paul wrote...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The natural result of walking according to the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, being gentle, goodness, faith, meekness, and being calm. We are at peace if we are in this state.

Therefore, however lengthy an argument you try and make to the contrary, you are saying a person is righteous before God if they obey His commands.

Of course we have to obey God's commands. The commands we find in the teachings of Jesus. We must do everything Jesus taught. We FOLLOW Him and obey His teaching. That is the road to life. Jesus leads the way. The result of doing that will be MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS IN US.

Paul taught that it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that sets us free from the law of sin and death. Paul connected this to a WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT whereby RIGHTEOUSNESS IS FULFILLED IN US.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is nothing abstract or positional about it. It is the REAL DEAL and we EXPERIENCE IT.

The Apostle Paul says righteousness comes apart from the law by faith in Christ, from first to last(the whole of your Christian life Rom 1:17

Righteousness comes apart from EXTERNAL RULES AND REGULATIONS like the Mosaic Law. That is what Paul is speaking of. Paul is not teaching DO NOTHING and TRUST. That is absurd. Look at this...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The "righteousness of faith" manifests because "faith works by love."

It is not hard to understand. The reason you don't understand it is because you don't want to, you are emotionally attached to Penal Substitution and do not want to examine it honestly.

The problem with your teaching is this:

The power of sin is the law(or the penalty attached to the law if you break it to be exact) 1Cor15:56

The power of sin is in the law because one cannot sin unto death without KNOWLEDGE. Sin unto death involves a rejection of life, a turning from God. If one is ignorant of right and wrong one cannot sin unto death. Adam died the day he sinned because he violated "thou shalt not" and thus turned away from God.

The penalty of sin is simply being "dead to God" because one cannot sin without turning away from God and such an act permanently defiles the conscious. It is impossible to stand before a just and holy God without the condemnation of guilt. God in His mercy has provided a means to extricate us from this predicament.

You preach the penalty remains for the Christian, thereby putting the since in the position Paul was in Rom ch7

Again it is YOU who are saying that, not me. You view the Bible through the lense of Penal Substitution in the context of the "penalty for sin" being equivalent to a "fine." It is an incorrect way to view these things.

Sin kills us spiritually. One sin kills. God cannot forgive people who are in a rebellious state thus there has to be a means to extricate an individual from an ongoing sinning/rebellious state. The means to save one from this state is via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ and the associated purity of heart.

We die to sin in repentance whereby we STOP serving sin, we are then raised up to newness of life by the power of God wherein we serve righteousness via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. This is salvation FROM sin.

I know it sound like "another gospel" to you and that is because it is. What is being taught today in the church system is NOT the gospel. It is a very insidious and effectual counterfeit. The Bible warns us that such counterfeits would come and we ought not treat such warnings lightly.

The penalty of sin, brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Hence, Rom 3:31, Rom 7:5, and Rom 6:14

The fear of JUDGEMENT ought to bring great fear. If one does not approach God in the correct manner by the blood of Christ in repentance and faith then one is doomed to eternal ruin. Don't be one of them. FEW will be saved, not MANY. I am telling you what FEW will tell you. What you believe is preached all over the place, on TV, on the radio, from the pulpit, in seminaries. By all means take comfort in numbers but I would beseech you to dig deep and be very careful in what manner you hear.

Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and FEW there be that find it.

 

[michael56]

Through His grace which teaches us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

We are to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously, and godly NOW.

Look at what Paul wrote...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The natural result of walking according to the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, being gentle, goodness, faith, meekness, and being calm. We are at peace if we are in this state.

The only way you can follow the above words of Paul, is if you know all your sins, past, present and future were paid by Christ at Calvary. That is the core of Paul's message. Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. It does not matter how much you try to reason it away, victory over sin, according to Paul is knowing the penalty for sin has been removed from your life.

Of course we have to obey God's commands. The commands we find in the teachings of Jesus. We must do everything Jesus taught. We FOLLOW Him and obey His teaching. That is the road to life. Jesus leads the way. The result of doing that will be MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS IN US.

I assume therefore, you would not invite frinds and family home for a meal, but rather the blind, lame and beggars from the street so you may receive your reward from your Father in Heaven

If you have ever fasted, you have made sure no one knows you have fasted apart from God, otherwise you accept you would be a hypocrite. I could go on...

This is what Paul says:

Carry each others burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ Gal 6:2

But if you insist of others they obey each and every literal command of Christ you MUST do that yourself, for the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you.

Paul taught that it is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ that sets us free from the law of sin and death. Paul connected this to a WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT whereby RIGHTEOUSNESS IS FULFILLED IN US.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There is nothing abstract or positional about it. It is the REAL DEAL and we EXPERIENCE IT.

The law of sin and death is a righteousness before God of obedience to the law, which in reality is what you preach. For to you, if a person has not perfectly obeyed the law(the result of which is sin) they are condemned.

Righteousness comes apart from EXTERNAL RULES AND REGULATIONS like the Mosaic Law. That is what Paul is speaking of. Paul is not teaching DO NOTHING and TRUST. That is absurd. Look at this...

For in the Gospel the righteousness of God is revealed, a righteousness which is by faith from first to last Rom 1:17

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The "righteousness of faith" manifests because "faith works by love."

It is not hard to understand. The reason you don't understand it is because you don't want to, you are emotionally attached to Penal Substitution and do not want to examine it honestly.


No I believe Paul's gospel message. Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. There is no way you can believe that with your views



The power of sin is in the law because one cannot sin unto death without KNOWLEDGE. Sin unto death involves a rejection of life, a turning from God. If one is ignorant of right and wrong one cannot sin unto death. Adam died the day he sinned because he violated "thou shalt not" and thus turned away from God.

The power of sin is the penalty attached to the law if you break it.
Why, when the commandment came to Paul as a Pharisee (''Thou shalt not covet'') could sin use Paul's knowledge of that commandment to arouse all manner of concupiscence in Paul. The law did not just reveal Paul's sin, sin used the law to make Paul a worse sinner

The penalty of sin is simply being "dead to God" because one cannot sin without turning away from God and such an act permanently defiles the conscious. It is impossible to stand before a just and holy God without the condemnation of guilt. God in His mercy has provided a means to extricate us from this predicament.

So under the old covenant a person could be forgiven their sin by offering a sacrifice, but under the new covenant there is no sacrifice for sin for Jesus-according to you only died for past sins. If you are right, the old covenant would be far more compassionate than the new one, and Heaven would be easier to attain under it

Again it is YOU who are saying that, not me. You view the Bible through the lense of Penal Substitution in the context of the "penalty for sin" being equivalent to a "fine." It is an incorrect way to view these things.

Sin kills us spiritually. One sin kills. God cannot forgive people who are in a rebellious state thus there has to be a means to extricate an individual from an ongoing sinning/rebellious state. The means to save one from this state is via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ and the associated purity of heart.

Again, sin can only be overcome, biblically speaking if you know Jesus died to remove the penalty of sin from your life. If I said to you, if you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that would enter your mind if you believed me?

We die to sin in repentance whereby we STOP serving sin, we are then raised up to newness of life by the power of God wherein we serve righteousness via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. This is salvation FROM sin.

We are made conscious of sin, and in our hearts desire to turn from sin. But, for example, unless you perfectly love everyone you come into contact with, without deviation-no slip ups you commit sin according to the biblical definition of sin. Do you sin or not?

I know it sound like "another gospel" to you and that is because it is. What is being taught today in the church system is NOT the gospel. It is a very insidious and effectual counterfeit. The Bible warns us that such counterfeits would come and we ought not treat such warnings lightly.

It it is another Gospel, it is not the one taught by the Apostle Paul



The fear of JUDGEMENT ought to bring great fear. If one does not approach God in the correct manner by the blood of Christ in repentance and faith then one is doomed to eternal ruin. Don't be one of them. FEW will be saved, not MANY. I am telling you what FEW will tell you. What you believe is preached all over the place, on TV, on the radio, from the pulpit, in seminaries. By all means take comfort in numbers but I would beseech you to dig deep and be very careful in what manner you hear.

But surely Jesus can only be your saviour from sin ast the point of conversion, after that you have no Saviour, you are on your own. Perform nigh on perfect or you are condemned. I have a Saviour as long as I live on this earth, not just fleetingly

Straight is the gate and narrow is the way and FEW there be that find it

Very true, fe accept the grace preached in the bible I have found
.

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

The above is the core of the new covenant. You only get the second part because the first part has happened.

If the law God requires you to keep was not written on your mind and placed on your heart at the point of conversion, you would have a license to sin by Jesus dying for your sins, because it has been put in your most inward parts you do not.

The last verse states. Sacrifices for sin are no longer necessary. Why were such sacrifices made? They were made for people UNDER the old covenant for forgiveness of sins. Those under the new covenant do not need to make sacrifices for sin, for their sin has been paid by Christ dying for their sin, past, present and future. Their sins and lawless deeds are remembered no more(unto condemnation) If Christ only died for past sins, your sins and lawless deeds could not be remembered no more. Sacrifices for sin would still have to be in place. Your beliefs are in error according to scripture

 

[Skinski7]

This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP][SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more
And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary Heb 10:16-18

The above is the core of the new covenant. You only get the second part because the first part has happened.

If the law God requires you to keep was not written on your mind and placed on your heart at the point of conversion, you would have a license to sin by Jesus dying for your sins, because it has been put in your most inward parts you do not.

The last verse states. Sacrifices for sin are no longer necessary. Why were such sacrifices made? They were made for people UNDER the old covenant for forgiveness of sins. Those under the new covenant do not need to make sacrifices for sin, for their sin has been paid by Christ dying for their sin, past, present and future. Their sins and lawless deeds are remembered no more(unto condemnation) If Christ only died for past sins, your sins and lawless deeds could not be remembered no more. Sacrifices for sin would still have to be in place. Your beliefs are in error according to scripture

You are just going in circles Michael. What is the point you are trying to make?

My beliefs are in error? Why? You have not shown anything to be in error. All you do is make assertions based on your own misunderstanding of what I have written, which you deduce from the erroneous notion that sins are somehow "paid for."

Your starting point is in error and thus your entire framework is erroneous. I can't even have a real conversation with you because you cannot comprehend anything outside of the framework your mind is trapped in.

Sins are not paid for. You cannot find a single passage or verse in the entire Bible which teaches that any "sin debt" is paid for.

The Pharisees has a similar problem to you. They viewed their religion from within a framework of the "letter of the law" being the be all and end all and thus when Jesus came preaching the "Spirit of the law" which has primacy over the letter they could not comprehend it. Jesus was in effect undermining their very foundation because their foundation was erroneous. It is the same with you. Whilst you don't view your religion within a framework of the "letter of the law" you instead view it through a framework of "sin debt paid for" and most likely "Original Sin" as well although we have not engaged on that second point. Thus your mind has been inoculated to the truth by foundational error.

Sacrifices were necessary under the Old Covenant because there was a veil in existence between God and mankind. Human beings when they sinned came under the dominion of sin, sin had a claim upon them because they were guilty of transgression. There was nothing they could do to extricate themselves from such a predicament. The Old Testament sacrificial system was designed as a shadow of the real solution to this problem and it was utitlised as a temporary respite from the guilt problem with the ultimate goal to point towards the purchase and thus redemption that Jesus would offer.

The Old Covenant could NEVER do this...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

That could not happen. Therefore Jesus died for us...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Jesus tore down the veil by purchasing a people by means of an adoption into an inheritance which had been forfeited due to sinning. Thus people could DIRECTLY approach God seeking reconciliation for there was no longer a barrier. The barrier has always been sinning and the guilt associated with sinning.

We die WITH Christ and we thus die to sin (literally in that we stop serving it) and we can thus approach God with Jesus being our mediator.

God is the offended party NOT man. It is not God whom has to change, it is the sinner who has to change. Thus we have to forsake sinning and yield ourselves to God with all our hearts and by doing so purity of heart is the result. God is then willing to forgive us our past transgressions, that which caused enmity, on the condition we have forsaken it and don't return to it. Hence repentance and faith being conditions for reconciliation.

Penal Substitution ignores all this because it perverts the reason for which Jesus died. Instead of teaching what the Bible plainly states (which I have quoted many times) it views the sin issue through a "legal lense" of a "sin debt" being akin to a "fine owed." Under the Penal Model the "fine is paid in full" because Jesus is "punished in the sinners place," thus the fine is not due any more. The Bible does not teach anything like that anywhere and you are free to believe it but I assure you it is a fable.

Under the Penal Model is is God whom is changing, not man. Thus a reconciliation is purportedly taking place where God is viewing the wicked sinner through some "Jesus glasses" where the "fine has been paid" and that the "obedience of Jesus is credited to the sinner." In other words God is PRETENDING that the sinner looks like Jesus. The people under this deception thus trust in the PROVISION which allows God to PRETEND that the wicked are righteous.

The reason there is no longer any necessity for a further sacrifice is because in redemption sin is purged once and for all. That is why Peter would make reference to the purging of PAST sins.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

The individual who does not continue in the faith by patient endurance in effect makes the purging of their past sins null and void. Again there was no "payment of a sin debt" made. That is a total fiction. A challenge you to try and find anything close to a "payment of a sin debt" in the Bible anywhere. It is not there because it is a false teaching. You believe it to your own peril.The nature of deception is to not know that one is deceived. That is why we have to be willing to examine ourselves HONESTLY. We have to lay all our preconceptions at the door and yield ourselves to the scriptures as a child. What do they really teach?

I have done this and I had to forsake all the false dogma I was under before. I had to reject Original Sin (which I used to believe), I had to reject Penal Substitution (which never made sense to me but I still believed it somewhat).

Have you ever examined what you believe TRUTHFULLY in the light of scripture?

I am not the one here who keeps saying "sins paid for" when no such phrase exists in the Bible. It is you who are saying that.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant there was no payment of the servants unpaid debt. The unpaid debt was freely forgiven on the condition that the servant likewise forgive his fellow servants. When that did not happen the debt was reinstated. The debt was able to be reinstated because it was freely forgiven as opposed to having been "paid for." Under what you believe the sin debt would be "paid for" and thus when the servant failed to forgive his fellow servant the penalty could not have been reinstated ala ETERNAL SECURITY doctrine.

I hope you can use your mind and see some reason here. If not then I am just trying to communicate with a brick wall.

 

[michael56]

God is the offended party NOT man. It is not God whom has to change, it is the sinner who has to change. Thus we have to forsake sinning and yield ourselves to God with all our hearts and by doing so purity of heart is the result. God is then willing to forgive us our past transgressions, that which caused enmity, on the condition we have forsaken it and don't return to it. Hence repentance and faith being conditions for reconciliation.


I hope you can use your mind and see some reason here. If not then I am just trying to communicate with a brick wall.

It seems from the above(correct me if I am wrong) you are saying a person must forsake sin(all sin must be gone) which will result in purity of heart, then and only then will God forgive our past sins.

I see no ;point in continuing this, such a belief is not biblical. In other words, you must be perfect according to the law before God will forgive your past sins. Once this has happened, you have no saviour from sin, for if you do sin you will be cast aside. I repeat, the old covenant-if your belief were true would be far more compassionate than the new one, and Heaven would be far more attainable under it.

Concerning having no scripture to back up all sins being forgiven by Christ dying at Calvary. It is all over the NT. You can only have a righteousness before God apart from the law if Christ died for all your sins at Calvary. Nothing else is possible. Yet you appear to be saying, you have to earn a righteousness of being perfect under the law(all sin must cease) before God will solely forgive you past sins.

Thank goodness such preaching is mainly confined to the internet

 

[Skinski7]

It seems from the above(correct me if I am wrong) you are saying a person must forsake sin(all sin must be gone) which will result in purity of heart, then and only then will God forgive our past sins.

I am saying this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

I am saying this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

In other words I am saying that ALL KNOWN SIN must be forsaken in the repentance process. That does not mean one must be perfect in the sense of never doing wrong in ignorance, what it does mean is the root of iniquity in the heart which is rebellion is DESTROYED once and for all. There is no longer any "disobedience" or "rebellion" to God.

I see no ;point in continuing this, such a belief is not biblical. In other words, you must be perfect according to the law before God will forgive your past sins.

Again that is YOU saying that. I have NEVER once said that "we must be perfect according to the law." That is YOU who keep pulling that meaning from my words because you are beholden to underlying fallacies which force you to draw conclusions like that.

All God requires is GENUINE faith. Genuine faith involves a wholehearted yielding to God. There is no rebellion to God in genuine faith, hence the faithful follow. This "perfect according to the law" is again a charge you bring up, not me. A Christian is not under the law of Moses, a Christian is under the law of faith, a faith that works by love, love which FULFILLS the law. We don't murder because some rule says "don't murder," we don't murder because we LOVE one another and love does not murder.

Once this has happened, you have no saviour from sin, for if you do sin you will be cast aside. I repeat, the old covenant-if your belief were true would be far more compassionate than the new one, and Heaven would be far more attainable under it.

Only within the strawman false understanding that exists in your mind. It is evident you cannot comprehend much of what I am saying at all. I might as well be speaking Chinese to you.

Concerning having no scripture to back up all sins being forgiven by Christ dying at Calvary. It is all over the NT.

I wish you would stop twisting what I say with your attempted word wizardry.

I have been very specific in saying that there is no scripture which teaches that any "sin debt is paid for." Why not address that?

You twist things in order to deal with them deceitfully and the more I see it the more I realise you are not just deceived, but are being dishonest.

You can only have a righteousness before God apart from the law if Christ died for all your sins at Calvary.

I have never denied that Jesus died for all our sins at Calvary. Not once. What I have denied is that the death of Christ can be used for "future sinning" once cleansed because the purpose of His death is to purge PAST SINS not future sins.

If we jump in the mud pit after a bath it null and voids taking the bath. The death of Christ is to purge sin once and for all resulting in us being in a clean undefiled state before God. Your doctrine treats the death of Christ as effecting a PROVISION which cloaks an ongoing wicked state.

Nothing else is possible. Yet you appear to be saying, you have to earn a righteousness of being perfect under the law(all sin must cease) before God will solely forgive you past sins.

The rebellion must cease. The Prodigal Son had to forsake the pig pen in order to be reconciled. He was not reconciled whilst in the pig pen.

Again the Bible says...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Do you think that no longer applies because Jesus died for sins? Do you think that it is no longer necessary for the wicked to forsake their way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and return to the Lord BEFORE mercy is granted?

If so, you have fallen for "ye can sin and not surely die" which is the first lie in the entire Bible.

 

[michael56]

I am saying this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

I am saying this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

In other words I am saying that ALL KNOWN SIN must be forsaken in the repentance process. That does not mean one must be perfect in the sense of doing wrong in ignorance, what it does mean is the root of iniquity in the heart which is rebellion is DESTROYED once and for all. There is no longer any "disobedience" or "rebellion" to God.



Again that is YOU saying that. I have NEVER once said that "we must be perfect according to the law." That is YOU who keep pulling that meaning from my words because you are beholden to underlying fallacies which force you to draw conclusions like that.

All God requires is GENUINE faith. Genuine faith involves a wholehearted yielding to God. There is no rebellion to God in genuine faith, hence the faithful follow. This "perfect according to the law" is again a charge you bring up, not me. A Christian is not under the law of Moses, a Christian is under the law of faith, a faith that works by love, love which FULFILLS the law. We don't murder because some rule says "don't murder," we don't murder because we LOVE one another and love does not murder.



Only within the strawman false understanding that exists in your mind. It is evident you cannot comprehend much of what I am saying at all. I might as well be speaking Chinese to you.


I wish you would stop twisting what I say with your attempted word wizardry.

I have been very specific in saying that there is no scripture which teaches that any "sin debt is paid for." Why not address that?

You twist things in order to deal with them deceitfully and the more I see it the more I realise you are not just deceived, but are being dishonest.


I have never denied that Jesus died for all our sins at Calvary. Not once. What I have denied is that the death of Christ can be used for "future sinning" once cleansed because the purpose of His death is to purge PAST SINS not future sins.

If we jump in the mud pit after a bath it null and voids taking the bath. The death of Christ is to purge sin once and for all resulting in us being in a clean undefiled state before God. Your doctrine treats the death of Christ as effecting a PROVISION which cloaks an ongoing wicked state.



The rebellion must cease. The Prodigal Son had to forsake the pig pen in order to be reconciled. He was not reconciled whilst in the pig pen.

Again the Bible says...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Do you think that no longer applies because Jesus died for sins? Do you think that it is no longer necessary for the wicked to forsake their way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and return to the Lord BEFORE mercy is granted?

Who is Paul speaking of in the following, Christians or non Christians?

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:15-18

 

[michael56]

I am saying this...


In other words I am saying that ALL KNOWN SIN must be forsaken in the repentance process. That does not mean one must be perfect in the sense of never doing wrong in ignorance, what it does mean is the root of iniquity in the heart which is rebellion is DESTROYED once and for all. There is no longer any "disobedience" or "rebellion" to God.



Again that is YOU saying that. I have NEVER once said that "we must be perfect according to the law." That is YOU who keep pulling that meaning from my words because you are beholden to underlying fallacies which force you to draw conclusions like that.

.

I am only going to respond to this for it shows where you err at its core. To say all known sin must cease at the repentance stage-before God will forgive past sins, means you have to observe the law before God will forgive past sins. You may say that is putting words as you do not mean, but that in effect is what you are stating. To deny it shows a complete lack of understanding of the bible and its message of grace. So according to you, a person must be perfect in respect of all known sin ceasing(they must perfectly obey the law concerning known sin) before God will forgive past sins. After that they must remain strictly under the law, for if they sin(transgress the law) they will be cast aside.

I say this sincerely, I am amzed you do not realise that is, in reality what you are preaching

 

[Skinski7]

Who is Paul speaking of in the following, Christians or non Christians?

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:15-18

Now you are blatantly trying to defend ongoing wickedness in Christianity by trying to imply Paul does the same.

That section you highlighted as a CONTEXT and Paul was speaking of how he corrected Peter for withdrawing and separating himself with the Jews from the Gentiles as the Gentiles were viewed as unclean.

If "WE THE JEWS" Paul states, in "seeking" to be justified IN Christ (by a faith that works by love) find ourselves amongst sinners (ie. the Gentiles) does that mean Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If Paul was to do what Peter did and withdraw from the Gentiles (ie. rebuild Judaism as being exclusively clean) then he would be a lawbreaker.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness does not come via the law (which is what the Jews thought, hence the withdrawal and elitist attitude) but instead comes by Jesus Christ. We are CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST and thus no longer live for ourselves but abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. We live by the SAME FAITH Jesus had, a faith that works by love and love fulfills the law.

Again Michael, you don't know what you are talking about. That is why it appears you IGNORED the verses I quoted you about stopping sin and tried to put forth Paul as a counter argument for stopping sin. You are twisting Paul to your own destruction by doing that.

 

[michael56]

Now you are blatantly trying to defend ongoing wickedness in Christianity by trying to imply Paul does the same.

That section you highlighted as a CONTEXT and Paul was speaking of how he corrected Peter for withdrawing and separating himself with the Jews from the Gentiles as the Gentiles were viewed as unclean.

If "WE THE JEWS" Paul states, in "seeking" to be justified IN Christ (by a faith that works by love) find ourselves amongst sinners (ie. the Gentiles) does that mean Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If Paul was to do what Peter did and withdraw from the Gentiles (ie. rebuild Judaism as being exclusively clean) then he would be a lawbreaker.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Righteousness does not come via the law (which is what the Jews thought, hence the withdrawal and elitist attitude) but instead comes by Jesus Christ. We are CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST and thus no longer live for ourselves but abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. We live by the SAME FAITH Jesus had, a faith that works by love and love fulfills the law.

is why it appears you IGNORED the verses I quoted you about stopping sin and tried to put forth Paul as a counter argumAgain Michael, you don't know what you are talking about. That ent for stopping sin. You are twisting Paul to your own destruction by doing that.

Who is Paul speaking of in the following, Christians or non Christians?

We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:15-18

Clearly in the above Paul is speaking of new converts to the Christian faith. And he clearly states it becomes evident they are sinners while seeking justification by faith in Christ.
So who does not know what they are talking about? Your theology is blown away in those verse alone, let alone others.

BTW

I am not trying to defend ongoing wickedness at all. The Gospel I believe in states sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. That is not the Gospel you believe in.
Clearly Paul knew once a person becomes a Christian they are not immediately sinless, they see great victory over sin by faith in Christ. He is speaking of a person seeking justification in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin when they come to Christ, into a person being led into holiness(see Romans 6) but this takes time. Something you would not accept. You do not understand Paul's Gospel message I am afraid, despite your protestations to the contrary

 

[Skinski7]

I am only going to respond to this for it shows where you err at its core. To say all known sin must cease at the repentance stage-before God will forgive past sins,

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jer_26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

I am not erring, that is what the Bible teaches cover to cover. Jesus preached REPENTANCE. John the Baptist preached REPENTANCE. Paul preached REPENTANCE.

It is you whom are erring in rejecting that.

means you have to observe the law before God will forgive past sins.

No it doesn't, not the Law of Moses. The law of conscience. We MUST stop choosing to do that which we know is evil. That has to stop. The wicked must forsake their way and the unrighteous their thoughts THEN pardon may be granted, not before.[/quote]

You may say that is putting words as you do not mean, but that in effect is what you are stating.

You are putting words in my mouth. You do this because it is easier to put words in my mouth rather than address what I actually write about. You don't argue in favour of purity of heart or a forsaking of wickedness like the Bible, you argue in favour of a sin cloak and forgiveness in advance.

To deny it shows a complete lack of understanding of the bible and its message of grace. So according to you, a person must be perfect in respect of all known sin ceasing(they must perfectly obey the law concerning known sin) before God will forgive past sins. After that they must remain strictly under the law, for if they sin(transgress the law) they will be cast aside.

Do I have to lay it out once again for you only for you to twist it again? Again you are just going in circles.

The message of grace is...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

That is grace. God is also gracious and merciful in that He is willing to forgive our previous rejection of grace.

Grace QUICKENS us...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

It is PREVIOUSLY that we lived according to the lusts of the flesh...

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Not any more...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Those are things which you won't address will you? You'll just pull scriptures in an attempt to defend ongoing sin as being permissible.

What is next? Romans 7 wretch? 1Joh 1:8? Paul the chief of sinners? All righteousness as filthy rags? Don't stop now.

I say this sincerely, I am amzed you do not realise that is, in reality what you are preaching[/QUOTE]

 

[john832]

Day of Atonement, or the Fast

let us read Leviticus 23:26-27, 31-32: “And the Lord spake … saying, Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls [fast] …. Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.”

Wonderful mystery! At-one-ment with God! Man at last made one with his Maker!

Again, in the 16th chapter of Leviticus, verses 29 and 31,where the symbolism of the Day of Atonement is explained, we find it instituted a holy sabbath to be kept forever: “And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you …. It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.”

in Leviticus 23:32, the expression “from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.” Every Sabbath keeper quotes this passage to show that the Sabbath begins at sunset. If we believe that, then why not keep the sabbath that this very text is speaking of—the high sabbath of the Day of Atonement, instituted forever?

The Day of Atonement pictures a wonderful and great event, to take place after the Second Coming of Christ, which the world is in total ignorance of because it has failed to see the true significance of these annual sabbaths holy unto the Lord. It has failed to keep them as a constant reminder of God’s plan of redemption!

The symbolism is all expressed in the account of the events of the Day of Atonement, as carried out before the crucifixion, in the 16th chapter of Leviticus.
Verse 5—“And he [Aaron, or the high priest] shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering ….”
Verse 6—The high priest offered a sin offering for himself and his house.
Verses 7 and 8—“And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; the one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat [margin,Hebrew, Azazel].”

The Comprehensive Commentary has:“Spencer, after the oldest opinions of the Hebrews and Christians, thinks Azazel is the name of the devil, and so Rosen …. The word scapegoat signifies the goat which went away.” The One Volume Commentary says: “The word ‘scapegoat’ in the av is not a translation.” It is merely an interpretation of the supposed meaning by the translators.

True, the English word scapegoat signifies “one who bears blame or guilt for others.” But scapegoat is an English word, and is not a translation of the Hebrew word Azazel. The word scapegoat, and the meaning attached to this English word, is not a translation of the Hebrew word Azazel, and therefore it is not the word inspired originally.Continues the One Volume Commentary: “Azazel is understood to be the name of one of those malignant demons.”

These two goats were, of course, types. Notice, it was necessary to be decided by lot, which one was qualified to represent Christ, and which Azazel. Some say both were qualified. The scripture does not say this. Let us not assume it.

Now one lot was for the Lord—this goat typified Christ—but the other lot was not for the Lord, did not typify Christ, but Azazel—Satan! These words most naturally suggest that Azazel is the name of a person, here contrasted to the Eternal! Notice the contrast—one for the Lord, the other for Azazel.

Now the goat which God selected—through lot, to represent Christ—was slain, as Christ, its antitype, was slain. But the other goat selected by God to represent Azazel was not slain, but was driven, alive, into an uninhabited wilderness. It was not a resurrected goat, symbolizing the resurrected Christ, for it never died. The uninhabited wilderness, to which this goat was driven, cannot, as we shall show, represent heaven, where Christ went. Heaven is neither uninhabited, nor a wilderness.

the high priest (verse 11) killed the bullock for a sin offering for himself, then took the burning coals of fire and the sweet incense into the holy of holies, also sprinkling the blood of the bullock before the mercy seat, typical of the throne of God, covering the tables of testimony (the law). This the high priest was required to do in order to purify himself to officiate, and to represent Christ as High Priest. In the antitype, this was not done, for Christ, our High Priest, had no need of this purification as the typical substitutionary priests did.

Next, the goat which God selected by lot to represent Christ, as the sin offering of the people, was killed. Thus the sins of the people were borne by the goat, even as Christ, finally, once for all, bore our sins on the cross. But Christ rose again from the dead, and ascended to the throne of God in heaven.

The risen Christ, now at the right hand of the throne of God in heaven (1 Peter 3:22), is called—what? Our High Priest! What was the earthly type of God’s throne? The uninhabited wilderness? No! That is where the live goat went!

The earthly type of God’s throne was the mercy seat in the holy of holies. After Christ died, He went to the heavenly mercy seat interceding for us, as our High Priest. “[E]ntereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec” (Hebrews 6:19-20).

Now, again, who, or what, in the Levitical ceremony of the Day of Atonement, typified the risen Christ, our High Priest, who went within the veil to God’s throne in heaven? The one goat had been slain. It represented the slain Christ. It can no longer represent the risen Christ. The slain Christ was not our High Priest, because the Levitical priesthood, with its high priest, did not end until Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven as a High Priest after the order of Melchisedec. But the risen Christ was High Priest.

Now who took this part in the Levitical ceremonies, temporarily re-enacted year by year, on this eternal holy day? Why, it was the Levitical high priest, not the goat representing Azazel!

The High Priest—Type of Christ

As soon as the slain goat was dead, who went within the veil, presenting the blood of this goat before the typical throne of God?

Leviticus 16:15-16—“Then shall he [the high priest] kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and [now the high priest himself typifying the work of the risen Christ] bring his blood within the vail … and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat: And he shall make an atonement for the holy place.

And so it was the high priest taking blood within the veil, to the mercy seat, that typified the risen Christ figuratively taking His blood, once for all, within the veil to the very throne of God in heaven, there to intercede for us as High Priest.

The high priest going within the veil, into the holy of holies, symbolized Christ’s return to heaven. The work he did while in the holy of holies symbolized Christ’s work these 1,900 years interceding for us, presenting His shed blood before the mercy seat in heaven. Now, coming back out, symbolizing Christ’s return to Earth, what did the high priest do?

“And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: And the goat shall bear upon him [Fenton: shall carry upon itself] all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. And Aaron shall … wash his flesh with water …. And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat [Azazel] shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp” (verses 20-26).

Is not God a God of justice, as well as of compassion and mercy?Who is the real author of our sins? The devil is the author of them, even as Christ is the author of our salvation. Jesus took our guilt—our blame—our sins—upon Himself as an innocent substitutionary sacrifice.

Is it justice for Christ to bear guilt that is not His, while the devil goes off scot-free? Do you not suppose God’s great plan will finally work full justice by placing that original blame and guilt right where it belongs?

But justice certainly demands that God place right back on the head of the devil his guilt—not our guilt, but his own guilt—for leading us into sin. We were guilty, too—and our guilt Christ bore—yet all our sins belong right back on the devil as his own guilt!

The Azazel goat carries away the sins of all the people already forgiven. These sins already were fully paid for by Christ’s substitute sacrifice, symbolized by the killing of the innocent goat before those same sins were finally laid on the live goat. They had been previously paid for by the death of the slain goat.

The devil is the real author of all sin. Can we, then, be finally made at one with God, as long as this instigator of sin is with us? Can we not see he must first be driven away? And there would not be justice with God unless his own guilt in our sins were placed right back on his head? Is it justice for Christ to bear the devil’s guilt, as well as our own guilt, for our sins?

The driving away of the second live goat shows the final atonement, by placing the sins on their author where they belong, and the complete removal of the sins and their author from the presence of God and His people—and thus the complete deliverance of the people from the power of Satan.

after laying both his hands on the live goat, Azazel, Aaron had to wash and cleanse himself before coming in contact with the people. So, too, the “fit man” also had to wash his clothes and bathe himself after coming in contact with the Azazel goat, before he came into the presence of the people. The symbolism is certainly that of having come in contact with the devil!

Notice, now, this act of putting these already expiated and forgiven sins on the head of this live goat does not take place until after the high priest returns from the holy of holies within the veil—so this typified an act to take place after the Second Coming of Christ to this Earth!

and the high priest returning to place the sins finally upon the head of the live goat represented the return of Christ, who will place the sins He bore on their author, the devil, and who will send him away alive into a desolate uninhabited wilderness—the “bottomless pit,” or abyss, of Revelation 20:3.

In the 19th chapter of Revelation, we have the prophecy of the Second Coming of Christ. At the beginning of the 20th chapter, what is to happen?Exactly what the 16th chapter of Leviticus shows. The devil is sent away—the symbol here used is the “bottomless pit” symbol of an uninhabited desolate wilderness (Revelation 18:2)—and he is sent there by a fit man—an angel from heaven. Now the devil is not killed. He does not die. He is still alive a thousand years later—after the Millennium (Revelation 20:7).

Both goats were “[presented] before the Lord.” Can Satan be presented before the Lord? Job 1:6 and 2:1 say he has presented himself before the Lord. Note, too, Azazel was driven away from the holy of holies, a symbol of God’s presence.

And so the annual Day of Atonement was instituted forever to keep continually before God’s children and His Church the plan of redemption, to occur after the Second Coming of Christ.

And we find this annual holy day recognized in the New Testament. In Acts 27:9, it is recorded that Paul was on his perilous sea voyage to Rome, “when sailing was now dangerous, because the fast was now already past ….” See the margin in your Bible. The fast refers to the Day of Atonement—the 10th day of the seventh month.

Very good understanding here. Few grasp the importance of the Day of Atonement, you have it my friend.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to prove-all again.

 

[Skinski7]

I am not trying to defend ongoing wickedness at all. The Gospel I believe in states sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace. That is not the Gospel you believe in.
Clearly Paul knew once a person becomes a Christian they are not immediately sinless, they see great victory over sin by faith in Christ. He is speaking of a person seeking justification in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin when they come to Christ, into a person being led into holiness(see Romans 6) but this takes time. Something you would not accept. You do not understand Paul's Gospel message I am afraid, despite your protestations to the contrary

Paul wrote...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You are denying the above sentiment of Paul. The old man is not "being crucified" it IS crucified. There is no "gradual" decrease in the service of sin, the service of sin STOPS.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You are either set free from sin or you are not. By your own words you claim that a Christian is only PARTIALLY set free from sin. Thus you argue in favour of ongoing wickedness. You are a sin defender.

We have either escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust or we have not escaped. There is no grey area or middle ground. We cannot serve two masters.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Paul wrote...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You are denying the above sentiment of Paul. The old man is not "being crucified" it IS crucified. There is no "gradual" decrease in the service of sin, the service of sin STOPS.

Did it stop in you? Your insistence on this view maintains the illusion that man can live sinlessly in the flesh. He cannot. The flesh does not die until it is dead. We are walking around in the flesh but led by the Holy Spirit, unless we again entertain the flesh. Sin lives in the flesh, and as we are flesh, we can and do sin, sometimes egregiously, sometimes persistently, but always under the shed blood of Christ.

That means the sin we commit has already been forgiven. Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself at the cross. All sin. From Adam through the last person born in the Millennial Kingdom. His death is sufficient for all. He has paid the price.

You are advocating a position that says we must pay the price for our present and future sin. If that were true, just as only one sin separates us from God in the beginning, one sin would again separate us from God. Are you willing to bet your salvation on the fact that one sin that you may or may not commit? And if you say you have no sin in you, you are a liar.

John 9, NASB
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."
​

You might want to consider that, all of you who cling to the heresy of a works-based salvation.

 

[michael56]

Paul wrote...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You are denying the above sentiment of Paul. The old man is not "being crucified" it IS crucified. There is no "gradual" decrease in the service of sin, the service of sin STOPS.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

You are either set free from sin or you are not. By your own words you claim that a Christian is only PARTIALLY set free from sin. Thus you argue in favour of ongoing wickedness. You are a sin defender.

We have either escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust or we have not escaped. There is no grey area or middle ground. We cannot serve two masters.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.[SUP]19 [/SUP]I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness

Rom 6:16-19

“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18[/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:17&18

 

[Skinski7]

Did it stop in you? Your insistence on this view maintains the illusion that man can live sinlessly in the flesh. He cannot.

Jesus overcame sin in the flesh and so can we by walking in the same Spirit that He did. That you don't believe it means you don't believe the Gospel nor the power of the Gospel.

You are speaking of a "form of godliness" yet you clearly deny the power.

Are your eyes full of adultery (with the world) and is it true you cannot cease from sin? That is what it sounds like you are saying to me.

2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Jesus commanded, "go and sin no more." It seems your response is, "I can't!"

The flesh does not die until it is dead. We are walking around in the flesh but led by the Holy Spirit, unless we again entertain the flesh. Sin lives in the flesh, and as we are flesh,

You are now blaming the root of sin as being a result of the flesh on our bones. Jesus came in the flesh and overcame sin, why cannot you?

The association of the flesh itself with a notion of "sin you will and sin you must" is the perfect deception in order to cloak the lie of "ye can sin and not surely die."

we can and do sin, sometimes egregiously, sometimes persistently, but always under the shed blood of Christ.

That means the sin we commit has already been forgiven.

Child molestation? Murder? Rape? Lying? Cheating? Stealing? Idolatry?

All those things are already forgiven in advance? You are claiming that you can sin with impunity. What an utterly evil proclamation. The Bible teaches...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Yet you teach the opposite in that one can sin and not surely die because somehow the blood of Jesus has given you a license to do evil without being condemned. Pure foolishness.

The things you are claiming is the fruit of the modern false Gospel. You can boldly proclaim the very first lie of Satan and claim that it is Christianity. Oh how pervasive the darkness is today.

Jesus took the sin of the world upon Himself at the cross. All sin. From Adam through the last person born in the Millennial Kingdom. His death is sufficient for all. He has paid the price.

Where does the Bible teach that Jesus "paid the price" in the sense of "paying the sin debt due" whereby future sins are all covered, resulting in sins being forgiven in advance? Where does the Bible teach that?

My Bible says...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

What do you do with that? Cross it out with a black marker? If so you must have many black marks throughout your Bible because that sentiment is expressed from beginning to end.

You are advocating a position that says we must pay the price for our present and future sin.

Am I? Is that what I said?

No it isn't. It is YOU who are saying I am advocating that.

I am advocating a position where we have to come clean with God in regards to our rebellion and FORSAKE it in order to be cleansed. Yet you won't deal with that will you? You have to redefine my words because to directly address what I actually write would expose you. You did the same thing in the Ukraine thread, you just ignore what is inconvenient to you.

The Bible says sin must be forsaken BEFORE mercy is granted. You just don't believe it because you hold in higher esteem an unbiblical 400 year old doctrine invented by men called Penal Substitution.

If that were true, just as only one sin separates us from God in the beginning, one sin would again separate us from God.

One single willful act of rebellion to God ALWAYS brings separation from God. To rebel is to depart from God. One cannot receive and reject God at the same time. To walk away is to walk away.

The wages of sin is death. The wages of sin will always be death. That is why Paul depicts the two opposites of...

1. Obedience unto righteousness
2. Sin Unto Death

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Freedom from sin is a result of obedience from the heart whereby the service of sin stops.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

There it is right there in the Bible, you just don't believe it.

To claim that you still disobey God and that it is all forgiven for in advance is an utter repudiation of what the Bible ever so plainly teaches.

The sin we commit has already been forgiven indeed. That is satanic to believe that.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Whilst you reject the cessation of sin you also by default reject the possibility of a pure heart. Thus instead of advocating purity, you advocate wickedness.

Are you willing to bet your salvation on the fact that one sin that you may or may not commit? And if you say you have no sin in you, you are a liar.

Like many you appeal to 1Joh 1:8 as a defence for ongoing wickedness, yet you never realise that 1Joh 1:8 is written in the context of "coming clean with God" as we "walk in the light as He is in the light" whereby we seek a "cleansing for all sin" and in doing so we do not deny our past transgression.

1Joh 1:8 has NOTHING to do with advocating ongoing wickedness in salvation. If we say we have no sin is speaking of our PAST SINS. He who hides his sin will not prosper, those whom CONFESS and forsake their sin will have mercy. To claim one has no sin to their account is to deny their past rebellion.

John clearly teaches that the children of God are manifest in that they do not commit sin for we cannot sin. We cannot sin whilst abiding in Christ, we have to disconnect ourselves from an abiding relationship in order to sin and disconnecting is death. Sin produces death, one single sin, for it is an act of forsaking God. That is not to say that one cannot be reconciled from such a death, we can through the blood of Christ, but not a reconciliation to keep on sinning, that is absurd and a mockery of Jesus Christ.

John 9, NASB
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains."
​

You might want to consider that, all of you who cling to the heresy of a works-based salvation.

Who was Jesus speaking to? He was speaking to the Pharisees. They had no excuse for their sin.

So how are you going to respond to me? With more out of context proof texts and rhetoric? Most likely.

Folks like you NEVER address verses like Pro 28:13, Isa 55:7, Jam 1:21, or the repentance taught by Jesus, all of which matter of factly state that sin must be forsaken BEFORE mercy is granted.

Folks like you NEVER address the issue of heart purity either. It is the pure in heart who will see God, not the workers of iniquity.

You claim that everyone is a worker of iniquity but that the Christian has their iniquity forgiven in advance because they "trust in Jesus." Hogwash.

 

[Sophia]

The sanctification taught in Reformed Theology is one of "sinning less" as opposed to "growing more." So whilst you might claim that "sanctification is a process" the meaning of that term is inclusive of ongoing wickedness in salvation.

I have spoken to many Pastors who believe in Penal Substitution and when I ask them if there is ANY sin which must cease BEFORE God will grant mercy the answer is always "NO, save for the sin of unbelief." When I question further and ask them specifically if a child molester has to STOP molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them they always, without exception, answer no. The reason they do that is because they have totally disconnected the condition of the heart as having anything to do with the reconciliation process. Thus they believe that one can be reconciled to God whilst still in a wicked and rebellious state.

I suspect that is what you believe too and I would love to see you address that issue.

Does a child molester have to STOP molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them?

If you answer yes then you will be contradicting Penal Substitution in that it is "faith alone" in the "finished work of the cross." You'll be asserting that the sin has to stop prior to forgiveness being granted. This is my view and I doubt you will agree.

If you answer no then you will be affirming that it is not the sinner whom has to change regarding being reconciled with God, it is God who has to change in how He views sin. In other words you will be asserting that salvation is a result of God PRETENDING that the wicked are not wicked. Such a view utterly undermines God being just.

So do you dare answer this particular question? It is a question which exposes the deception of Reformed Theology. Many will run and hide from such a question because it strikes very close to home regarding the truth of what they believe.

Does a child molester have to STOP molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them?

But I did adress the issue of continuing in sin.
"By their fruit you will know them".
The change from the inside out is real, and manifests itself in reality.

To continue in sin is to not believe in God as active in the world, as a Father who will severely chastise His wayward Children unto repentance.
Those who claim Christ, yet continue in sin, display their lack of faith in the active power of the Spirit within the Believer, the active reformation of the soul through the Blood of Christ, and the active chastisement of the Father.
There is no excuse for sin now that we are in Christ. There remains forgiveness, but not excuse.

There is a child, adopted by a loving yet stern father, out of an abusive and impoverished orphanage. The father will not disown the child for acting like a child, but will chastise them and correct them. The child may initially think that they will be disowned for disobedience, but once they experience the love and forgiveness of the father, the attitude changes from obedience out of fear to obedience out of love, appreciation, and respect. If the child has faith that the father is a good man and loving and willing to chastise, then they will obey.

Unlike that analogy, we are no longer even the same person we were before. The child might have the excuse of past abuses to excuse some rebellion or mistrust, but we have no such excuse. The past self has died with Christ, and a new self is raised with Christ.

To re-address your question directly:
For a child molester to be saved, they must put their faith in Christ.
If they have put there Faith in Christ, then they are no longer a child molester.
If they continue in child molestation, it proves that they have not put their faith in Christ.
Remember the verse that says "and so were many of you", but we are no longer those things.

 

[Skinski7]

But I did adress the issue of continuing in sin.
"By their fruit you will know them".
The change from the inside out is real, and manifests itself in reality.

Indeed that is true. Yet the Reformers don't teach it like that. They uphold the doctrine of Original Sin and thus teach that the sin continues, just less than before. Look up at Vigiliante's post, for he says...

we can and do sin, sometimes egregiously, sometimes persistently, but always under the shed blood of Christ.

That means the sin we commit has already been forgiven.

That is a common sentiment expressed today.

Perhaps you don't subscribe to that and are one of those people who have fallen for Penal Substitution yet have not really thought it through or really examined it in the light of scripture. I hope so for that means there is hope for you to come out from the deception of the Penal Model.

To continue in sin is to not believe in God as active in the world, as a Father who will severely chastise His wayward Children unto repentance.
Those who claim Christ, yet continue in sin, display their lack of faith in the active power of the Spirit within the Believer, the active reformation of the soul through the Blood of Christ, and the active chastisement of the Father.
There is no excuse for sin now that we are in Christ. There remains forgiveness, but not excuse.

When you speak of a "wayward child unto repentance" are you speaking of willful sin like child molesation, adultery, murder, lusting etc? If so are you advocating that one engaged in that activity is "already forgiven" due to the "penalty being paid in full"?

This is the problem with Penal Substitution. Many people will contradict themselves in speaking out of two sides of their mouth. I would love you to explain what you mean here. Do you think one can be justified whilst sinning, just that the sin has to stop some time down the track? And if it doesn't stop that they were never save to begin with? Is that what you believe.

I would like to know because I consider it important to understand from what framework one is coming from. Otherwise there can be confusion with words as what you mean by the use of certain words may be interpreted differently by me. It is important that the ideas in our minds are communicated, not misconceptions wrought through semantics.

There is a child, adopted by a loving yet stern father, out of an abusive and impoverished orphanage. The father will not disown the child for acting like a child, but will chastise them and correct them. The child may initially think that they will be disowned for disobedience, but once they experience the love and forgiveness of the father, the attitude changes from obedience out of fear to obedience out of love, appreciation, and respect. If the child has faith that the father is a good man and loving and willing to chastise, then they will obey.

So does that mean you think that a Christian can rape and murder for a period of time and still be in a justified state? God will simply chastise that child and they will obey at some later stage. Is that what you believe? Substitute adultery, porn watching, lust, lying or whatever sin of the flesh you like for rape and murder. I state rape and murder to make a point regarding wickedness.

Unlike that analogy, we are no longer even the same person we were before. The child might have the excuse of past abuses to excuse some rebellion or mistrust, but we have no such excuse. The past self has died with Christ, and a new self is raised with Christ.

Indeed this is true. Old things are passed away and all things are become new. This means that one cannot argue in favour of ongoing wickedness lest they be consistent and claim that all things are not really made new. This is one of the issue evident in modern Bible teaching, they will argue in favour of ongoing wretchedness (Romans 7 wretch being present Christian walk being the perfect example) in salvation.

To re-address your question directly:
For a child molester to be saved, they must put their faith in Christ.
If they have put there Faith in Christ, then they are no longer a child molester.
If they continue in child molestation, it proves that they have not put their faith in Christ.
Remember the verse that says "and so were many of you", but we are no longer those things.

I agree, they must put their faith in Christ. Yet what does that mean? "Trust in the provision of Penal Substitution" and then some magic happens and they are no longer a child molester?

Putting faith in Christ is a very powerful thing and it has nothing to do with "trusting in a provisional legal exchange."

We see this in the Bible...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

That is how the root of iniquity in a child molester is broken, through godly sorrow and repentance.

Their old man is crucified once and for all and they henceforth are wholeheartedly yielded to God. That is genuine faith. Faith in Christ is total trust and wholehearted yielding to God. Basically the child molester would have given their life over to God, the root of rebellion having been purged. God then regenerates the (former) child molester and thus raised them up to newness of life. There is no ongoing struggle with child molestation. There may be temptation but the flesh is crucified and thus the flesh no longer rules. We walk after the Spirit.

Under the Penal Model there is no power because everything pertains to a "legal provision" to be trusted in. Thus people will be taught to "trust who they are in Christ" when NOTHING really changed. They just have a false perception that they are changed yet they never experienced godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation. Thus their old man was never crucified, it was only partially subdued due to an emotional experience. It is for this reason that a struggle with sin continues and this struggle is given comfort with the presentation that Romans 7 is speaking of the present Christian walk and that 1Joh 1:8 is teaching that the sin never actually stops.

I am not sure what you believe in regards to all that but I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Thank you for answering my question. Most people will avoid it because it strikes to close to home.