ATONEMENT

[Skinski7]

Show me where the 2nd half of verse 22 is found in the Greek, or in any other translation.
It is an addition to the Word by the Catholic Church, and a distortion to sure up their doctrine of sacraments.

I have not checked into that but even if that is the case it does not change the fact that Penal Substitution is a 400 year old doctrine invented by the Reformers and that no-one taught before then that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God on behalf of the sinner. That kind of thing would have got one excommunicated in the early church.

Sure you can believe it, but in doing so you have chosen the traditions of men over the clear harmony of scripture.

 

[Skinski7]

[video=youtube;8qCPqH3Judg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qCPqH3Judg[/video]

 

[Sophia]

Seeing as the basis of Salvation is the sacrifice of Christ,
I think you should be checking yourself, skinski.
Rejecting the power of His sacrifice is to reject Grace.

 

[Skinski7]

Seeing as the basis of Salvation is the sacrifice of Christ,
I think you should be checking yourself, skinski.
Rejecting the power of His sacrifice is to reject Grace.

I only reject grace as adherence to the Penal Substitution model forces one to redefine it. The "grace" of Penal Substitution is not grace at all.

The Bible teaches...

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

We are saved through yielding to that grace wholeheartedly, ie. faith. The dynamic of "working together with God" produces a total transformation of our hearts. Salvation is a manifest state, not a positional abstraction.

Jesus died for the reasons the Bible specifically states. I have outlined many of those reasons in this thread.

Penal Substitution is a 400 year old doctrine invented by men and it is alien to the scripture, it is illogical, it also perverts the reconciliation process.

You are free to believe in that false doctrine and accuse those whom reject it as rejecting grace. It is not our opinions that matter, rather what actually matters is being an ally to the truth as opposed to fables.

 

[Skinski7]

Those who believe in the Penal model associate grace with a "positional salvation" provided by a "provision" which they believe came into effect due to Jesus death on the cross. It is a myth that has been taught for 400 years. The world is full of myths and fables and it is just one of them.

So to reject the mythical "provision" is to reject "grace" in the eyes of those who adhere to the Penal Substitution model.

 

[Skinski7]

The power of God's grace is for this...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

There is no "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" with the Penal Substitution folks I have found. Maybe you are an exception Sophia, although I doubt it because the PS model does not require it. The PS model serves to substitute any need to "have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" because it only offers a POSITIONAL salvation as opposed to something manifest. That is why people addicted to sin can easily claim they are saved. It is the epitome of insanity.

 

[Skinski7]

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ, just not in the manner those who uphold Penal Substitution think.

Salvation is wrought via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. In other words we are saved by the LIFE of Jesus. The death of Christ is the MEANS of obtaining reconciliation for our past sins.

If one is to go and read early church writings one will find they placed more emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus Christ than His death. The reason for that is they understood what it meant to abide in the Spirit of His life.

The death of Christ effects the covenant and cleansing. His life effects the salvation FROM sin.

The PS model teaches a salvation IN sin which is no salvation at all. The best it can do is silence the conscience and thus make an allowance for temporary comfort until such a time when one is faced with reality at the judgement. Just as Jesus warned, there are going to be MANY people who are going to be totally shocked to find themselves rejected as "workers of iniquity." Many of these rejected people will have "trusted in the provision" of Penal Substitution. They will have been totally deceived.

 

[Sophia]

I have not checked into that but even if that is the case it does not change the fact that Penal Substitution is a 400 year old doctrine invented by the Reformers and that no-one taught before then that Jesus absorbed the wrath of God on behalf of the sinner. That kind of thing would have got one excommunicated in the early church.

Sure you can believe it, but in doing so you have chosen the traditions of men over the clear harmony of scripture.

The term might be only 400 years old, but the idea of Christ paying the debt we owed through His perfect sacrifice is found from the very beginning.
It is said that 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
And 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

The fact is that a transaction was made, where Christ took on our sin, and grants us righteousness,
available to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Sophia]

The power of God's grace is for this...

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

There is no "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" with the Penal Substitution folks I have found. Maybe you are an exception Sophia, although I doubt it because the PS model does not require it. The PS model serves to substitute any need to "have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" because it only offers a POSITIONAL salvation as opposed to something manifest. That is why people addicted to sin can easily claim they are saved. It is the epitome of insanity.

I am not alone in holy living. It is the work of the Spirit that brings good fruit to bear through us as the branches.
Sanctification is the process, not salvation. Sanctification displays and proves what is already there,
and the lack of change and sanctification displays unbelief, and shows who the person's father truly is...

The "PS" model might not "require" us to overcome sin, but the Spirit within Believers certainly does.

 

[Sophia]

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ, just not in the manner those who uphold Penal Substitution think.

Salvation is wrought via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. In other words we are saved by the LIFE of Jesus. The death of Christ is the MEANS of obtaining reconciliation for our past sins.

If one is to go and read early church writings one will find they placed more emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus Christ than His death. The reason for that is they understood what it meant to abide in the Spirit of His life.

The death of Christ effects the covenant and cleansing. His life effects the salvation FROM sin.

The PS model teaches a salvation IN sin which is no salvation at all. The best it can do is silence the conscience and thus make an allowance for temporary comfort until such a time when one is faced with reality at the judgement. Just as Jesus warned, there are going to be MANY people who are going to be totally shocked to find themselves rejected as "workers of iniquity." Many of these rejected people will have "trusted in the provision" of Penal Substitution. They will have been totally deceived.

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Ephesians 1 clearly shows salvation as completed, and not a process.
Living out that faith and calling comes out of actually having the faith, calling, and Spirit.

In the practical sense, those who are saved are those who walk in the Spirit.
In a doctrinal sense, those who are saved are those chosen, who have been given Faith.

Penal substitution and following Christ are not mutually exclusive, as you have been suggesting.

 

[Sophia]

I agree that the victory and promised Glory is in His Resurrection,
but we overcome "by the B_ _ _ _ of the L_ _ _ and the word of our testimony."
His death has more significance than you are giving it,
and His Blood has more power than you are accepting.

Understand that it truly is a finished work of Salvation,
and that the work we are now given is for the Kingdom, not for our own salvation.

 

[MarcR]

It's the "Wrath of God" part I object to.... God killing Himself to satisfy Himself.

Meaning no disrespect, I believe that your difficulty may arise from misunderstanding the nature of sin and of God's wrath.


When a mother tells a young child 'Don't touch the hot stove or you will get burnt.' she has no desire for the child to be burnt; and the burn is not her punishment of the child. The burn is inherent in the nature of a hot stove. Likewise, God has no pleasure in people enduring the consequence of sin; or He would not have taken it upon Himself. The consequence of sin is inherent in the nature of sin; and the only reason any person will bear it is because he/she rejects God's provision for his/her escape.

 

[michael56]

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ, just not in the manner those who uphold Penal Substitution think.

Salvation is wrought via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. In other words we are saved by the LIFE of Jesus. The death of Christ is the MEANS of obtaining reconciliation for our past sins.

If one is to go and read early church writings one will find they placed more emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus Christ than His death. The reason for that is they understood what it meant to abide in the Spirit of His life.

The death of Christ effects the covenant and cleansing. His life effects the salvation FROM sin.

The PS model teaches a salvation IN sin which is no salvation at all. The best it can do is silence the conscience and thus make an allowance for temporary comfort until such a time when one is faced with reality at the judgement. Just as Jesus warned, there are going to be MANY people who are going to be totally shocked to find themselves rejected as "workers of iniquity." Many of these rejected people will have "trusted in the provision" of Penal Substitution. They will have been totally deceived.

It doesn't matter how you try and reason it. In reality, if Jesus only died on the cross for the sins you committed before you got saved, you must be under a righteousness before God of obedience to the law, nothing else is possible, despite the great lengths you try and go to, to suggest otherwise.

 

[michael56]

For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself Heb 9:24-26

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.[SUP]15 [/SUP]The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary. Heb 10:10-17

 

[Skinski7]

The term might be only 400 years old, but the idea of Christ paying the debt we owed through His perfect sacrifice is found from the very beginning.
It is said that 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
And 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

The fact is that a transaction was made, where Christ took on our sin, and grants us righteousness,
available to those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yet neither of those verses say what you implicate them in saying.

God doesn't "grant you righteousness." Those are your words, not the Bibles.

You read the notion of a credited positional righteousness into the text because that is what you have been taught and it is now what you want to believe. It is seeming pretty clear now that you don't seem to much care what the text actually states.

2Cor 5:21 says "MADE the righteousness of God in Him." It says not a word about some positional legal credit. Not only that but the very next verse speaks of WORKING TOGETHER with God lest grace be received to no effect.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Grace can be received in vain if one does not cooperate with God. That means there is something we have to do.

Penal Substitution teaches that there is NOTHING we have to do because it has already all been done. All one has to do under the Penal Model is "trust" that it was done. It is a lie, yet you believe it.

1Pet 2:24 is speaking of an example set forth.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We die to sin WITH Jesus and thus live unto righteousness.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

[Skinski7]

It doesn't matter how you try and reason it. In reality, if Jesus only died on the cross for the sins you committed before you got saved, you must be under a righteousness before God of obedience to the law, nothing else is possible, despite the great lengths you try and go to, to suggest otherwise.

We must be pure in heart. It is very simple. It doesn't seem that you want to address "purity of heart" even though bring it up continually. Instead it appears you have to focus on this idea of "obedience to the law."

Well if you want insert false implications into what I have written, then go right ahead.

 

[Skinski7]

I am not alone in holy living. It is the work of the Spirit that brings good fruit to bear through us as the branches.
Sanctification is the process, not salvation. Sanctification displays and proves what is already there,
and the lack of change and sanctification displays unbelief, and shows who the person's father truly is...

The "PS" model might not "require" us to overcome sin, but the Spirit within Believers certainly does.

The sanctification taught in Reformed Theology is one of "sinning less" as opposed to "growing more." So whilst you might claim that "sanctification is a process" the meaning of that term is inclusive of ongoing wickedness in salvation.

I have spoken to many Pastors who believe in Penal Substitution and when I ask them if there is ANY sin which must cease BEFORE God will grant mercy the answer is always "NO, save for the sin of unbelief." When I question further and ask them specifically if a child molester has to STOP molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them they always, without exception, answer no. The reason they do that is because they have totally disconnected the condition of the heart as having anything to do with the reconciliation process. Thus they believe that one can be reconciled to God whilst still in a wicked and rebellious state.

I suspect that is what you believe too and I would love to see you address that issue.

Does a child molester have to STOP molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them?

If you answer yes then you will be contradicting Penal Substitution in that it is "faith alone" in the "finished work of the cross." You'll be asserting that the sin has to stop prior to forgiveness being granted. This is my view and I doubt you will agree.

If you answer no then you will be affirming that it is not the sinner whom has to change regarding being reconciled with God, it is God who has to change in how He views sin. In other words you will be asserting that salvation is a result of God PRETENDING that the wicked are not wicked. Such a view utterly undermines God being just.

So do you dare answer this particular question? It is a question which exposes the deception of Reformed Theology. Many will run and hide from such a question because it strikes very close to home regarding the truth of what they believe.

Does a child molester have to STOP molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them?

 

[michael56]

We must be pure in heart. It is very simple. It doesn't seem that you want to address "purity of heart" even though bring it up continually. Instead it appears you have to focus on this idea of "obedience to the law."

Well if you want insert false implications into what I have written, then go right ahead.

The point I initially responded to of yours was your belief Jesus died only for past sins. That is certainly linked to a person having a righteousness of obedience to the law if that is the case. The reality of you saying a person must have a pure heart to receive righteousness from God, in reality means, you believe a person must uphold the law to be righteous before God. For you continue on to say if a person has a pure heart they will not sin(therefore they will uphold the law) It is all linked to your denial that Jesus paid the price of all the converts sins at Calvary, past, present and future. Your preaching is the subtle problem many find in churches today sadly.
No false implications, just showing what your beliefs entail in reality
I would repeat, who do you believe Paul is speaking of in the following, a Christian, or a non Christian?

“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles [SUP]16 [/SUP]know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[SUP][d][/SUP] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.[SUP]17 [/SUP]“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:15-18

 

[michael56]

The sanctification taught in Reformed Theology is one of "sinning less" as opposed to "growing more." So whilst you might claim that "sanctification is a process" the meaning of that term is inclusive of ongoing wickedness in salvation.

QUOTE]


For by one sacrifice he made perfect forever, those who are being made holy Heb 10:14

If you are being made holy, you are not perfect in the flesh, you are imperfect/you sin. However, your Father in Heaven sees you as perfect forever in the spiritual sense, as He sees the sacrifice His son made for you at Calvary, not your imperfections. The Father could not see you as perfect forever, even while you are being made Holy if Jesus only died for past sins.

 

[Skinski7]

The point I initially responded to of yours was your belief Jesus died only for past sins.

The purging by the blood is of PAST sins, not future.

The reason for that is because reconciliation with God involves a forsaking of that which put us at enmity with God. If we come clean with God in confessing and forsaking our sins God is willing to forgive us our sins.

A purging of past sins takes place.

To go and willfully sin after this takes place is to null and void the purging because one has again become defiled. It is similar to taking a bath to wash the mud off and then to later jump back in the mud pit. If one gets muddy again then the bath no longer remains, it means nothing, one would need a fresh bath to be clean again.

Penal Substitution teaches a POSITIONAL STATUS apart from any actual manifest cleansing. That is why those whom uphold the Penal Model will always argue in favour of being able to be justified whilst still engaged in rebellion to God.

The reality of you saying a person must have a pure heart to receive righteousness from God.

I am not saying that, it is YOU who are saying that I am saying that and thus anything you append on to that is meaningless because you are responding to a strawman of your own creation.

Righteousness is in DOING the right thing from a heart that is pure. There is no "receiving righteousness from God." Righteousness is not some substance or a thing that one can give to someone. Righteousness has to do with a MANIFEST STATE. We are either righteous or we are not premised on the condition of our hearts. An individual with a pure heart is naturally righteous because they are walking with God and abide in His love. An individual with a defiled heart is naturally unrighteous because they are at enmity with God and are not abiding in His love.

One of the main factors regarding Penal Substitution is that it is premised on salvation being an ABSTRACT POSITION as opposed to a MANIFEST STATE. That is why the Penal adherent can teach that one can be righteous and still engaged in wickedness.

Don't be deceived, he who DOES what is right is righteous.