Baptism in the Holy Spirit
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E
or we could listen to this person falsy accuse us of things which are not true.
none of us reject the gift of the Holy Spirit. we all have it. And we have gifts given by him.
don't listen to men who falsly accuse the bretheren to make themselves look good because it is all they have, and can not refute what the others are saying so they stick to personal attacks.
quote - ILLUSTRATION: Take (2) glasses and fill one with water, and then take (2) paper towels and crunch them both up. Immerse one of the paper towels in the glass full of water and observe. Then take the other paper towel and put it in the empty glass. Fill the empty glass and observe. When you compare the condition of the towel in each glass they are the same. One towel was immersed (or baptised) in water and the other was filled with water. The conclusion suggest that the baptism and filling are the same.
When we believed upon Christ we recieved the Holy Spirit, and at that moment we were filled and baptized with the Holy Spirit and placed in Christ together as members of one another and of His body, flesh and bones (Rom 12:4, Eph 5:30). That's why the scriptures teach that there is 'one baptism', 'one Spirit' and 'one body' (Eph 4:4,5). That happens at salvation when we were all baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27). Then we get into (1Cor 12 & 13). Notice (1Cor 12:13);
'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit'.
There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit that we are filled with at salvation and we are to continue in that filling (Eph 5:18). Then comes the gifts, administrations and operations that are given and divided by the same Spirit to every man as he wills to profit all members together (1Cor 12:4-13). - unquote
Tell us what great things they did in (Acts 8) when they were baptized by the Holy Spirit with that figurative (5) gallon picture of water? What kind of power did they receive and demonstrate to give the apostles witness that they were really baptised with the Spirit? I don't even see anyone speaking in tongues. What's up with that, Oh noble 4runner?
Originally Posted by Red33
Tell us what great things they did in (Acts 8) when they were baptized by the Holy Spirit with that figurative (5) gallon picture of water? What kind of power did they receive and demonstrate to give the apostles witness that they were really baptised with the Spirit? I don't even see anyone speaking in tongues. What's up with that, Oh noble 4runner?
Tell us what great things they did in (Acts 8) when they were baptized by the Holy Spirit with that figurative (5) gallon picture of water? What kind of power did they receive and demonstrate to give the apostles witness that they were really baptised with the Spirit? I don't even see anyone speaking in tongues. What's up with that, Oh noble 4runner?
However as I said before we have to take our clues as to what that could be from other parts of Acts.
A
you are using Simon as your basis?
Simon was in the wrong for buying something that is freely given because he wanted POWER over others and Position and Status....hmmm sounds familiar.
you whole case rest upon Acts 8, upon the believers being saved before their baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Why the verses about Knocking and finding? Why do you have to seek? why do you have to ask? the disciples asked for prayer to receive the Holy Spirit, they ever said they were "in filled" and saved already.
where does it say you get a "filling in" of the Holy Spirit and that the "filling in" saves a person and not the BAPTISM of the Spirit that saves souls?
how do you explain the scripture verses that say ONE baptism?
Simon was in the wrong for buying something that is freely given because he wanted POWER over others and Position and Status....hmmm sounds familiar.
you whole case rest upon Acts 8, upon the believers being saved before their baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Why the verses about Knocking and finding? Why do you have to seek? why do you have to ask? the disciples asked for prayer to receive the Holy Spirit, they ever said they were "in filled" and saved already.
where does it say you get a "filling in" of the Holy Spirit and that the "filling in" saves a person and not the BAPTISM of the Spirit that saves souls?
how do you explain the scripture verses that say ONE baptism?
Well, what are you waiting for? You will have to assume evidence into the text of (Acts 8) according to other events that took place at other times and with different circumstances to be able to make your claims. But if you feel confident, go ahead and give it a whirl and see what you come up with to justify what you believe concerning the baptism of the Spirit. As you do this you will need to explain the means for this baptism through the laying on of hands and provide evidence as to the power and living reality that it truly happened according to the will of God. If you could also explain when Jesus breathed upon the disciples to receive the Holy Spirit in (Jn 20:22), was that the infilling, the on-resting or the baptism of the Spirit?
These same disciples where gathered together in the upper room (Acts 1:13) and as they were waiting and praying, they were filled with the Spirit and spoke with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance in (Acts 2:4). I do not see any laying on of hands in this upper room where (120) were gathered and that the Holy Spirit had come upon (Acts 1:15, 2:3 - each one of them). These scriptures testify that they were filled with the Spirit but what evidence do you see of a separate baptism of the Spirit, either here or later for these disciples that were gathered? The promise was made to them by the Lord that they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit and receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them in (Acts 1:5-8). I do not see two different events for the disciples concerning the filling and the baptism. In (Acts 2:4) they were filled with the Spirit and that appears to be the basis and evidence of the baptism they received when the Spirit was to come upon them in (Acts 1:8). The tongues were given because of the Jews that were gathered for Pentecost from every nation under heaven (Acts 2:4-6)
1Cor 12:13 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit'.
Is there any comments you would like to make about this verse of scripture that came from the mouth of Paul?
Is there any evidence that the apostles or any ordained man of God laid their hands on these believers at Corinth or do we presume that it happened for each believer to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Was Paul only speaking of this church at Corinth or for all believers in the church and body of Christ presently and in the future?
These same disciples where gathered together in the upper room (Acts 1:13) and as they were waiting and praying, they were filled with the Spirit and spoke with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance in (Acts 2:4). I do not see any laying on of hands in this upper room where (120) were gathered and that the Holy Spirit had come upon (Acts 1:15, 2:3 - each one of them). These scriptures testify that they were filled with the Spirit but what evidence do you see of a separate baptism of the Spirit, either here or later for these disciples that were gathered? The promise was made to them by the Lord that they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit and receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them in (Acts 1:5-8). I do not see two different events for the disciples concerning the filling and the baptism. In (Acts 2:4) they were filled with the Spirit and that appears to be the basis and evidence of the baptism they received when the Spirit was to come upon them in (Acts 1:8). The tongues were given because of the Jews that were gathered for Pentecost from every nation under heaven (Acts 2:4-6)
1Cor 12:13 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit'.
Is there any comments you would like to make about this verse of scripture that came from the mouth of Paul?
Is there any evidence that the apostles or any ordained man of God laid their hands on these believers at Corinth or do we presume that it happened for each believer to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Was Paul only speaking of this church at Corinth or for all believers in the church and body of Christ presently and in the future?
L
Matthew 3:11
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 20:22
(22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 20:22
(22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one’s person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.
THE REAL THING...REAL LANGUAGES.
Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
SOMETHING ELSE
Linguistics of Pentecostal glossolalia
William J. Samarin, a linguist from the University of Toronto, published a thorough assessment of Pentecostal glossolalia that became a classic work on its linguistic characteristics.[5] His assessment was based on a large sample of glossolalia recorded in public and private Christian meetings in Italy, Holland, Jamaica, Canada and the USA over the course of five years; his wide range included the Puerto Ricans of the Bronx, the Snake Handlers of the Appalachians, and Russian Molokan in Los Angeles.
Samarin found that glossolalic speech does resemble human language in some respects. The speaker uses accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses to break up the speech into distinct units. Each unit is itself made up of syllables, the syllables being formed from consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker.
Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface, and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language".[9] He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organised, and– most importantly of all– there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate, but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".[9]
On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".[10]
Practitioners of glossolalia may disagree with linguistic researchers and claim that they are speaking human languages (xenoglossia). For example Ralph Harris, in the work Spoken By the Spirit published by Radiant Life/GPH in 1973, describes seventy five occasions when glossolalic speech was understood by others. (Scientific research into such claims is documented in the article on xenoglossia.)
Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practiced by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.[11]
Glossolalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Acts 2
The Coming of the Holy Spirit
1When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. 2And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. 7And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? 9Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” 12And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
SOMETHING ELSE
Linguistics of Pentecostal glossolalia
William J. Samarin, a linguist from the University of Toronto, published a thorough assessment of Pentecostal glossolalia that became a classic work on its linguistic characteristics.[5] His assessment was based on a large sample of glossolalia recorded in public and private Christian meetings in Italy, Holland, Jamaica, Canada and the USA over the course of five years; his wide range included the Puerto Ricans of the Bronx, the Snake Handlers of the Appalachians, and Russian Molokan in Los Angeles.
Samarin found that glossolalic speech does resemble human language in some respects. The speaker uses accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses to break up the speech into distinct units. Each unit is itself made up of syllables, the syllables being formed from consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker.
It is verbal behavior that consists of using a certain number of consonants and vowels[...]in a limited number of syllables that in turn are organized into larger units that are taken apart and rearranged pseudogrammatically[...]with variations in pitch, volume, speed and intensity.[6]
[Glossolalia] consists of strings of syllables, made up of sounds taken from all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but emerging nevertheless as word-like and sentence-like units because of realistic, language-like rhythm and melody.[7]
That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others: Felicitas Goodman found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language.[8]
Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface, and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language".[9] He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organised, and– most importantly of all– there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate, but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".[9]
On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".[10]
Practitioners of glossolalia may disagree with linguistic researchers and claim that they are speaking human languages (xenoglossia). For example Ralph Harris, in the work Spoken By the Spirit published by Radiant Life/GPH in 1973, describes seventy five occasions when glossolalic speech was understood by others. (Scientific research into such claims is documented in the article on xenoglossia.)
Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practiced by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.[11]
Glossolalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
course they won't.
they'd have to fall down on their faces and repent, and start all over.
and ironically they don't believe the prodigal, so they are locked into a paradigm of their own making.
it goes one of two ways: search for the real truth and just sweep the other aside joyfully, grateful that God will lead....or harden into position (quenching the Spirit) and go into full-blown delusion.
BOB DEWAAY.....hello?
they'd have to fall down on their faces and repent, and start all over.
and ironically they don't believe the prodigal, so they are locked into a paradigm of their own making.
it goes one of two ways: search for the real truth and just sweep the other aside joyfully, grateful that God will lead....or harden into position (quenching the Spirit) and go into full-blown delusion.
BOB DEWAAY.....hello?