Bewitching Believers Through the Hebrew Roots Movement

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zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Mainstreaming The Hebrew Roots "Fringe"

Jude 1

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

It was suggested to this writer in August 2003, that Brad Young, Marvin Wilson, Dwight Pryor, Richard Booker and Ron Moseley were all writers that could not be compared to people in the fringe Hebrew Roots camp like kabbalists James Trimm and Avi ben Mordechai, Marshall Koniuchowsky and so on. That these people are more "orthodox" than the fringe element and it would be wrong to clump them in the same questionable doctrine camps of the "fringe".

I wasn't immediately familiar with those listed, except Dwight Pryor, who is a founding director with the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research. From the Seek God article; Jacob Prasch and The Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research:

...The J.S.S.R is not a resource a true believer could confidently embrace for learning Biblical truth. The Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research, is a "consortium of Jewish and Christian scholars." Jesus Christ is identified by the JSSR as being "like other Jewish sages of that time".

From their website:

" The Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research, a consortium of Jewish and Christian scholars, was chartered in 1985 as an Israeli non-profit scientific and educational organization dedicated to understanding better the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), and to rethinking the Synoptic Problem. Examining the Synoptic Gospels within the context of the language, land and culture in which Jesus lived, this Jewish-Christian collaboration is unique and unprecedented historically...Christian scholars fluent in Hebrew and living in Israel are collaborating with Jewish scholars to examine Jesus' sayings from a Jewish and Hebraic perspective. The result of this research confirm that Jesus was an organic part of the diverse social and religious landscape of Second Temple-period Judaism. He, like other Jewish sages of his time, taught in Hebrew and used specialized methods to teach foundational Jewish theological concepts..." bolding added

...A book published in 1984 by David Bivin (Director of the JSSR) and Roy Blizzard has formed the basis of much Hebrew Roots' doctrine. The following excerpts from Understanding The Difficult Words Of Jesus represent the JSSR viewpoint on the lack of originality of the Greek New Testament:

"...Our reasons for writing this book are not only to show that the original gospel was communicated in the Hebrew language; but to show that the entire New Testament can only be understood from a Hebrew perspective. 2.

"It cannot be overemphasized, that the key to an understanding of the New Testament is a fluent knowledge of Hebrew and an intimate acquaintance with Jewish history, culture, and Rabbinic Literature."

....The contributors were not only from the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research (JSSR) but had to be personal friends of David Forbes.

“Many of the contributors are well-known, names such as David Bivin, Walter Riggans and Dwight Pryor, but new writers are also included. The criteria for selecting the authors were twofold, namely that they had something relevant and important to contribute and that they were friends and colleagues of David.” 26

Jacob Prasch recommends Dwight Pryor... Dwight Pryor is with the J.S.S.R. "Dwight is President and Founder of the Center for Judaic-Christian Studies, established in Austin, Texas, in 1984. He also is a founding member of the Board of Governors of the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research in Israel." ..."

Dr. Brad Young, mentioned above, is also one of the founding scholars of the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Studies, who works closely on Gospel research with Prof. David Flusser and Dr. Robert L. Lindsey. He is a member of the faculty of the Graduate School of Theology at Oral Roberts University serving as Associate Professor of Judaic-Christian Studies. According to his website promotion, his seminars attract Catholics and mainline Protestants, evangelicals and Charismatics.

Jews for Jesus wrote an article about the Hebraic Roots movement, in the section "Frequently Asked Questions" and stated the following. In it we find mention of the writers, Roy Blizzard & David Bivin, Brad Young and Robert Lindsay, [bolding added]

"...The Hebraic Roots or Jewish Roots movement can be described as a movement of organizations, often closely networked, that hold in common an emphasis on recovering the "original" Jewishness of Christianity through any or all of the following: studying the Bible in its Jewish context; observing the Torah; keeping the Sabbath and festivals; avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity; affirming the existence of original Hebrew language gospels and denigrating the Greek text. Usually this is all grouped under the rubric of "studying the Hebraic roots of Christianity" or something similar. Much impetus has been given by the work of scholars and writers such as Roy Blizzard & David Bivin; Brad Young; Robert Lindsay, all of whom have written over the past years in support of the existence of original Hebrew-language gospels (taught pre-eminently by the Jerusalem School of Synoptic Research in Israel). [bolding added]

...The "Hebraic Roots" movement seems to be growing in influence among Christians, perhaps because most organizations in the movement now have an Internet presence..." 1

This writer was also told in August 2003, that the Restoration Foundation was a source of what Hebrew Roots is really about......

Mainstreaming the Hebrew Roots Fringe < click more
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Mainstreaming The Hebrew Roots "Fringe"

...A book published in 1984 by David Bivin (Director of the JSSR) and Roy Blizzard has formed the basis of much Hebrew Roots' doctrine. The following excerpts from Understanding The Difficult Words Of Jesus represent the JSSR viewpoint on the lack of originality of the Greek New Testament:

"...Our reasons for writing this book are not only to show that the original gospel was communicated in the Hebrew language; but to show that the entire New Testament can only be understood from a Hebrew perspective. 2.

"It cannot be overemphasized, that the key to an understanding of the New Testament is a fluent knowledge of Hebrew and an intimate acquaintance with Jewish history, culture, and Rabbinic Literature."

Mainstreaming the Hebrew Roots Fringe < click more
Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus, by David Bivin and Roy Blizzard. Arcadia, CA: Makor Publishing, 1983. Pp. 172. Paper. No price.

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...ticles/gtj-nt/fields-gospels-jesus-gtj-84.pdf
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Mainstreaming The Hebrew Roots "Fringe"

This writer was also told in August 2003, that the Restoration Foundation was a source of what Hebrew Roots is really about......

Mainstreaming the Hebrew Roots Fringe < click more
The Restoration Foundation
"In 1987, Dr. John D. Garr launched...."
HebraicCenter.org - Home < click


[video=youtube;RYHOEOBlEVc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYHOEOBlEVc#t=46[/video]

Dr. John Garr. Hebraic Christian Global Community.
 

Josh321

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Sep 3, 2013
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The sad part is.. the OT was never meant for the gentiles was always meant for the Jews you see we were the outcast, outlaws but in order for us to be saved God hand to die on the cross so we can be drafted in, people just read a portion of the bible and make a creed out of it, it's giving them a faster ticket to condemnation.. and they don't realize it, this was prophesied in revelation also that this very thing would happen, they thinking they doing the right thing living the right way and not knowing they naked, wretched, and blind and the sad part is... instead of God knocking on the hearts of the sinners he is knocking on the hearts of these PEOPLE they so call believers that believe they doing the right thing and i'm trying my very hardest to try and show them this but they just choose to not accept it... how long will you keep hardening your hearts to God, because of your creeds? i don't mean to be harsh but this must be said... [h=3]Revelation 3:16-20[/h]King James Version (KJV)

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



religion has completely corrupted the minds of these people, turn your eyes on God and receive the holy spirit... it's your only hope, what you going to tell him on the last days? but God i kept the commandments, i went to sabbath, i didn't steal i lived a good life, but your soul is still a sinner... doesn't matter how hard you try in the flesh.. your soul is going to be the one that is judged don't let this be you
[h=3]Matthew 7:22-23[/h]King James Version (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



these people did wonderful things in the name of the lord had many sensations cast out devil but they never knew God... stop, relying on your human understandings... and just let God live the life in you
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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The Hebrew Roots Cult
4/1/2006

Titus 1:10-11, 13-14 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach…For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

What an insidious and devious Enemy we have! The ability to take devout men and women of God who are zealous for good works and twist their desires so as to put them back into bondage to the Law illustrates the truly evil nature of Satan.

I had the recent misfortune of encountering a cult which is growing in influence within Christianity. It is not to be confused with Messianic Judaism or simply seeking to explore the Jewish culture within which most of the Bible was written. Although there are many organizations which are promoting this general view and their specific doctrines often vary, it is generally known as the Hebrew Roots Movement.

Why Haven't I Heard About This?

As a rule, this spreading wave of false doctrine is not being addressed by the church. This is due to several reasons:

- There is a fear of appearing anti-Semitic

- The depth of the movement’s doctrinal heresies is not generally known

- There is within the church in general a reluctance to address false doctrine

- The movement usually hides their beliefs and presents itself as simply seeking to educate Christians concerning their Jewish heritage. As they become acclimated to the Jewish orientation the more aberrant doctrines are slowly introduced.

The influence of this movement is working its way into our churches and our seminaries. The longer we refuse to address it directly and publicly the greater the damage will be to our brothers and sisters and to the core doctrines of our faith. If it is not the responsibility of the clergy to correct issues of doctrine, then whose responsibility is it?

A Few Symptoms

Allow me to delineate some of their more common symptomatic doctrinal heresies:

- All Christians should adhere to a kosher diet
- The Sabbath can only be observed on Saturdays
- The Jewish festivals and holidays should still be observed today

The Cause

The root of their symptomatic heresies is hermeneutic (having to do with the methodology used to interpret scripture) in nature. The Protestant Reformers used a grammatical-literal hermeneutic when interpreting scripture. In other words, it means what it says unless there is a significant reason to believe otherwise. This movement uses a grammatical-historical hermeneutic with a twist. Their underlying assumptions when approaching any scripture are:

Whatever God has ever commanded of those who seek Him (i.e., the Jews, their ancestors, their descendents, and Christians) is still in effect today (including the Levitical law)

Gentile followers of Christ were “grafted into” the Jews which they interpret to mean that Gentiles must assume Jewish customs if they really want to mature and please God

Based on those unquestionable assumptions, they then decide how they can best interpret a given scripture to support those beliefs.

The farther down this rabbit hole they go, the more bizarre their doctrines become. Many see the New Testament as inferior to the Old (or a conspiracy by the Catholic church). More still say that Paul’s teachings are contrary to Christ (since they have trouble with his obvious statements against their beliefs) and, therefore, reject his epistles as scripture. Some say that the only reason we aren’t still sacrificing animals and stoning people for their sins is because there is no Temple and no Sanhedrin. But when they are restored then these will resume. Others go so far as to eventually reject Jesus as the Messiah and simply say that He was just a Rabbi. The inevitable outcome of following this train of thought is to put people back into bondage to the Law.


The Hebrew Roots Cult - click more
 

zone

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Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
 

Josh321

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if i'm saying something wrong please correct me by the scriptures... but look at this the bible itself said, we never had the law we are the outlaws by our NATURE ( meaning it's not our fault, it's in our DNA ) so why then.. would we still have to follow the very thing our nature is against? Jesus even said this is why he came and you STILL DON'T BELIEVE? i honestly don't know maybe your hearts are hardened because you rejected the truth in the first place look for yourselves the bible even have it right here, 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

do you see that? because our flesh is weak to the law, God send his son why do you still continue to harden your hearts after still seeing the truth? may God have mercy.. on the people that wilfully blinding themselves, i tried my best over and over for months but your hearts are just too hardened
 

Josh321

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Galatians 5:4
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
if they were under God's grace they would know not to run back to something else in the first place
 
B

BradC

Guest
It does not matter what stage or degree of unbelief or blindness that characterizes any Jew in any movement claiming to be Christian or otherwise. Have you ever wondered the degree of unbelief and blindness that dwells within our own heart, even with the Holy Spirit? It is so wicked that we can't even know the depth of that wickedness. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and that heart was never eradicated when we were saved. This is why we have to continually cast down every imagination, thought and high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God AND (for the sake of some) abstain from the works of the flesh, especially the Gentile believer who needs an abundance of grace in that area. We are to be lead by God without thinking evil of others even when their words and deeds come from an evil heart of unbelief or just plain (kakos) evil. There's some doctrine for you, did you get it?

Being bewitched is a result of mixing leaven in with good doctrine that results in putting people out of joint or position. This is the opposite of being fitly framed together and growing as a habitation of God through the Spirit. To bewitch is to cause division and separate believers from one another instead of gathering them together in one accord, in fellowship, in doctrine, in grace and in communion with the Holy Spirit. Bewitch means to slander and prate against with an evil eye causing confusion and comparison. This is why we think and speak evil of no man and rejoice not when they fall or stumble (Titus 3:2, James 3:8, Romans 12:17, Mark 9:37-43, Prov 24:16-18), not the Jew nor the Gentile.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology
A History of Dispensational Approaches
By Rev. Steven Sizer
Christian Zionism: Dispensationalism And The Roots Of Sectarian Theology

hairetikos: causing division
Original Word: αἱρετικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hairetikos
Phonetic Spelling: (hahee-ret-ee-kos')
Short Definition: factious
Definition: disposed to form sects, sectarian, heretical, factious.

Cognate: 141 hairetikós (an adjective, derived from 138 /hairéomai, "to choose, have a distinctive opinion") – a factious person, specializing in half-truths and misimpressions "to win others over" to their personal opinion (misguided zeal) – while creating harmful divisions (used only in Tit 3:10). See 139 (hairesis).
 

Josh321

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Sep 3, 2013
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It does not matter what stage or degree of unbelief or blindness that characterizes any Jew in any movement claiming to be Christian or otherwise. Have you ever wondered the degree of unbelief and blindness that dwells within our own heart, even with the Holy Spirit? It is so wicked that we can't even know the depth of that wickedness. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked and that heart was never eradicated when we were saved. This is why we have to continually cast down every imagination, thought and high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God AND (for the sake of some) abstain from the works of the flesh, especially the Gentile believer who needs an abundance of grace in that area. We are to be lead by God without thinking evil of others even when their words and deeds come from an evil heart of unbelief or just plain (kakos) evil. There's some doctrine for you, did you get it?

Being bewitched is a result of mixing leaven in with good doctrine that results in putting people out of joint or position. This is the opposite of being fitly framed together and growing as a habitation of God through the Spirit. To bewitch is to cause division and separate believers from one another instead of gathering them together in one accord, in fellowship, in doctrine, in grace and in communion with the Holy Spirit. Bewitch means to slander and prate against with an evil eye causing confusion and comparison. This is why we think and speak evil of no man and rejoice not when they fall or stumble (Titus 3:2, James 3:8, Romans 12:17, Mark 9:37-43, Prov 24:16-18), not the Jew nor the Gentile.
the heart is deceitful and wicked without christ, we shall be known by the fruits of the spirit, if someone has the spirit of God what fruits do you think they will have?
 
B

BradC

Guest
the heart is deceitful and wicked without christ, we shall be known by the fruits of the spirit, if someone has the spirit of God what fruits do you think they will have?
I would hope they would have TEMPERANCE and not be compelled to think or speak evil of others because the fruit of LOVE thinks no evil (1Cor 13:6). A believer that thinks or speaks evil of others is not filled with the fruit (singular) of the Spirit. As soon as I say this, people are going to refer to Jesus and what he said to the Pharisees in Matt 23 so that they can justify their endeavors of speaking evil and reproving unfruitful works of darkness. Satan has been given a place (Eph 4:27) to establish in the mind and heart justification for believers to think evil of one another and especially toward the nation of Israel and the Jews. This is a deception that has found a place in the heart to be expressed as a legitimate desire cloaked with a righteousness that undermines the righteousness of our faith rooted in the finished work of the cross. Those who have given this a place in their heart do not deny the finished work of Christ but find a place in their expression to replace the goodness of God with expositions of communication in the name of reproving and exposing heresy and false doctrine according to their understanding. They are convinced this is from God and condemn those who oppose them. They will reap what they sow and will be recompensed for their actions and deeds.

Anyone that believes that the horse-like locusts and their king that were released by an angel from the Abyss in Rev 7 & 9 has to do with Titus and his armies and the destruction of the temple in 70AD, has a very severe problem with justifying evil against Israel and the Jews and any establishment of the kingdom being restored to them. That is a bewitching proposition that is slanderous and confusing against the promises of God for the restoration and salvation of all of Israel and its people. We should shake our heads in bewilderment that such a proposition exists in the mind and heart of any believer who is suppose to have the Spirit.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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Interview with Messianic Rabbi Derek Leman

Q. In your preface to Feast, you introduce yourself as someone who is "converting to Judaism". In the same breath, you say, "Yes, I am a Christian." I must admit, I was surprised to read this! I can hear my gentile Christian friends saying, "We don't need anything but Jesus. What's this 'converting to Judaism' stuff?"

A. Converting to Judaism is a misleading expression. It gives the idea that someone like me is changing religions. That's not it at all. I am joining a people, the people of Israel. Israel has always been a people you could join. Caleb and Ruth are biblical examples of non-Jews who joined Israel.

That said, conversion is not for most people. There is no reason in Christ to convert. My family and I are converting because our life calling and destiny is with the Jewish people. We believe God has called us to convert. It has nothing to do with being holier than someone else or thinking that being Jewish makes someone better. All such thinking is false.


Kineti L'Tziyon
by judah gabriel himango
Interview with Messianic Rabbi Derek Leman

...

do you believe God called him to convert to Judaism?
 
U

unclefester

Guest
Red33 ... you need to think on this the next time you feel led to teach on a return to animal sacrifices in your rebuilt temple ... in your earthly Jerusalem ... during your earthly millennial reign of Christ ... Who clearly said ... "My kingdom is not of this world". And you also need to learn who the spiritual Israel of God is ...i.e.... the seed of Abraham thru faith in Christ, without which, it is impossible to please Him ... or even begin to understand.

John 2:19-22


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

[SUP]20 [/SUP]They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” [SUP]21[/SUP]But the temple he had spoken of was His body. [SUP]22 [/SUP]After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said.Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.
 

zone

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Jun 13, 2010
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i just have to say that this thread is deeply ironic given that the person who started it recently befriended a hebrew root rot cultist who was trying to recruit for his cult here on this site...

someone obviously doesn't have as much discernment as they think...
finally figured out what you were talking about:)
the poster did have me duped - for a week or so - until another member (my friend, who can identify himself if he likes) and i talked it over and determined the person you're referring to was not a girl but an older guy.
from which point i had no further contact....so, looks like we had him pegged before you did, dear.
you're funny rachel.
 
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I wonder why some just keep bringing this up. I went to a church once that preached "don't do this and don't do that,' but never once did I ever hear what to do. Seems as though this thread is of the same mindset. Lo, and behold this assembly was a Messianic Jewish assembly. I quit, but I didn't need to be coached to know it wasn't for me. See the relativity? This thread seems to be of the same persuasion of "don't do this and don't do that." When I was a kid there was a saying. Spend time doing the dos and you won't have time to do the don'ts.
 
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if they were under God's grace they would know not to run back to something else in the first place
I have tried and tried to understand how you could come to the conclusion that we must not try to obey our Lord because God is so loving He sent His Son so we can have forgiveness when we sin!! It makes no sense to me.

It is like a child saying to his parents that he knows they love him and being rebellious and naughty doesn't change their love for him, so they have no right to tell him what to do or he to even think of obeying.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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I wonder why some just keep bringing this up. I went to a church once that preached "don't do this and don't do that,' but never once did I ever hear what to do. Seems as though this thread is of the same mindset. Lo, and behold this assembly was a Messianic Jewish assembly. I quit, but I didn't need to be coached to know it wasn't for me. See the relativity? This thread seems to be of the same persuasion of "don't do this and don't do that." When I was a kid there was a saying. Spend time doing the dos and you won't have time to do the don'ts.
well, i don't know when that was - but you are 66.
you say: I didn't need to be coached to know it wasn't for me.

some people obviously have no idea it's "not for them".
ya?:)
 
Oct 31, 2011
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I wonder why some just keep bringing this up. I went to a church once that preached "don't do this and don't do that,' but never once did I ever hear what to do. Seems as though this thread is of the same mindset. Lo, and behold this assembly was a Messianic Jewish assembly. I quit, but I didn't need to be coached to know it wasn't for me. See the relativity? This thread seems to be of the same persuasion of "don't do this and don't do that." When I was a kid there was a saying. Spend time doing the dos and you won't have time to do the don'ts.
I've noticed this. It is a thread teaching being judgmental. If they say grace, they only use this word to accuse not about the wonder of it. If they say law, it is never as it leads us but how awful it is. If they say Jews it is only to say you must not listen. I haven't found one word of kindness or love that tells us it comes from God.

They have set themselves up as sort of Gods given the job of judging. If the movement actually was teaching to use obedience as an idol for salvation, it is wrong to have idols. They say "all these people do this". Everyone who is Christian knows that is false accusations of all these people, and they aren't saying it is wrong to do but they are personally taking on the role of God to judge the people.

The idea behind the movement is to look at how Christ developed the principles expressed in the OT, and is a deep celebration of Christ. That part is ignored.

The one part that they express that is usually true of these people is they often use rituals God gave people before Christ to show them Christ. They say it is wrong, and these people say that scripture says that it was wrong to put them before Christ, or to use them instead of what they were to lead to such as circumcise physical without the spiritual circumcision, but God doesn't say you may not use them. They understand that Paul said he was not directed to teach these things, but he was directed to teach Christ. Most in the movement say that some things scripture tells of were not eliminated by Christ but scripture says they were directions given for eternity. But they aren't debating it at all, they are saying they are absolutely judges and can decide what God wants about this, they are right and will brook no opposing thought to their personal interpretation of scripture.

Perhaps this "aren't these people just TERRIBLE" thread is correct, God pronounces it sin to use rituals even in the spirit He gave them in the first place, but no one on the thread is able to talk about it. They announce God made it sinful, and that to them is simply that!
 
Mar 4, 2013
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I've noticed this. It is a thread teaching being judgmental. If they say grace, they only use this word to accuse not about the wonder of it. If they say law, it is never as it leads us but how awful it is. If they say Jews it is only to say you must not listen. I haven't found one word of kindness or love that tells us it comes from God.

They have set themselves up as sort of Gods given the job of judging. If the movement actually was teaching to use obedience as an idol for salvation, it is wrong to have idols. They say "all these people do this". Everyone who is Christian knows that is false accusations of all these people, and they aren't saying it is wrong to do but they are personally taking on the role of God to judge the people.

The idea behind the movement is to look at how Christ developed the principles expressed in the OT, and is a deep celebration of Christ. That part is ignored.

The one part that they express that is usually true of these people is they often use rituals God gave people before Christ to show them Christ. They say it is wrong, and these people say that scripture says that it was wrong to put them before Christ, or to use them instead of what they were to lead to such as circumcise physical without the spiritual circumcision, but God doesn't say you may not use them. They understand that Paul said he was not directed to teach these things, but he was directed to teach Christ. Most in the movement say that some things scripture tells of were not eliminated by Christ but scripture says they were directions given for eternity. But they aren't debating it at all, they are saying they are absolutely judges and can decide what God wants about this, they are right and will brook no opposing thought to their personal interpretation of scripture.

Perhaps this "aren't these people just TERRIBLE" thread is correct, God pronounces it sin to use rituals even in the spirit He gave them in the first place, but no one on the thread is able to talk about it. They announce God made it sinful, and that to them is simply that!
I see an irony for sure. By calling the movement a cult that is labeled as nothing but regulations, saved by works only, with don't don't don't, or have to do do do, the same tactics are used to renounce the same thing as assumptions lead. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. It's using the same tactics to renounce the same psychology of that which is being refuted. :confused::p