Bewitching Believers Through the Hebrew Roots Movement
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U
finally figured out what you were talking about
the poster did have me duped - for a week or so - until another member (my friend, who can identify himself if he likes) and i talked it over and determined the person you're referring to was not a girl but an older guy.
from which point i had no further contact....so, looks like we had him pegged before you did, dear.
you're funny rachel.
the poster did have me duped - for a week or so - until another member (my friend, who can identify himself if he likes) and i talked it over and determined the person you're referring to was not a girl but an older guy.
from which point i had no further contact....so, looks like we had him pegged before you did, dear.
you're funny rachel.
R
finally figured out what you were talking about
the poster did have me duped - for a week or so - until another member (my friend, who can identify himself if he likes) and i talked it over and determined the person you're referring to was not a girl but an older guy.
from which point i had no further contact....so, looks like we had him pegged before you did, dear.
you're funny rachel.
the poster did have me duped - for a week or so - until another member (my friend, who can identify himself if he likes) and i talked it over and determined the person you're referring to was not a girl but an older guy.
from which point i had no further contact....so, looks like we had him pegged before you did, dear.
you're funny rachel.
I realize the theme of this post is to demonize this movement, and my pointing out facts of them for discussion is not welcome, but again, I can't resist a website I found listing beliefs of one faction of this movement. I think if you read them, you will see why the church feels nothing they say is worthwhile, they should be wiped out.
Gentile inclusion doesn’t mean Jewish exclusion.
Reverse Galatianism is an equally false gospel.
The “new” adds to the “old” without erasing what came before.
Torah is not the failed plan of God, but the seed from which came Yeshua.
Yeshua is not God’s second plan, but his intention from the beginning to sum up all things in Messiah.
De-Judaizing Jesus is how the power of Christianity was diminished from early in church history.
Returning to a Jesus understood in Jewish context is how Christianity will be repaired.
The re-advent in modern times of Jews following Jesus as Jews is a hopeful sign that the age to come is nearing.
The increasing love that many non-Jews have in modern times for Jews and Judaism is a hopeful sign that the age to come is nearing.
The Jewish world has not properly heard of Yeshua from the Church or its missions to the Jewish people, but Messianic Judaism is coming to a clear common ground about the meaning of Yeshua from within Judaism.
Wouldn't Hitler have had an absolute tantrum if he read any of this! Constantine would have made our churches reaction to any of these ideas seem like child's play. Constantine wrote a manifesto telling how his belief in Christ was a belief that anything Jewish must never be included, that's why he said the feasts Jews honored were sinful, holidays had to be ones he authorized.
Gentile inclusion doesn’t mean Jewish exclusion.
Reverse Galatianism is an equally false gospel.
The “new” adds to the “old” without erasing what came before.
Torah is not the failed plan of God, but the seed from which came Yeshua.
Yeshua is not God’s second plan, but his intention from the beginning to sum up all things in Messiah.
De-Judaizing Jesus is how the power of Christianity was diminished from early in church history.
Returning to a Jesus understood in Jewish context is how Christianity will be repaired.
The re-advent in modern times of Jews following Jesus as Jews is a hopeful sign that the age to come is nearing.
The increasing love that many non-Jews have in modern times for Jews and Judaism is a hopeful sign that the age to come is nearing.
The Jewish world has not properly heard of Yeshua from the Church or its missions to the Jewish people, but Messianic Judaism is coming to a clear common ground about the meaning of Yeshua from within Judaism.
Wouldn't Hitler have had an absolute tantrum if he read any of this! Constantine would have made our churches reaction to any of these ideas seem like child's play. Constantine wrote a manifesto telling how his belief in Christ was a belief that anything Jewish must never be included, that's why he said the feasts Jews honored were sinful, holidays had to be ones he authorized.
R
so someone claimed earlier in this thread that the new testament was originally in hebrew...and you could get a better understanding by going back to the 'original hebrew' of the new testament...
the first issue with that is that nobody -has- any 'original hebrew new testament'...if one ever existed... what some 'hebrew roots' people are doing is really to -translate- the new testament from greek...or more often right from english...into hebrew... so even if the new testament -was- originally in hebrew...their 'original hebrew new testament' would just be a translation of a translation...or worse... they cannot prove that their retranslation is what the originals said because nobody -has- any originals in hebrew...
furthermore...it is certain for most of the books in the new testament that they -were- written in greek...because they make use of greek concepts that simply don't exist in hebrew and cannot be articulated in hebrew...and also because they use greek words with no counterpart in hebrew...so they cannot have been a translation from hebrew into greek...
a good example is john's use of the greek word 'logos'...which is a greek philosophical concept...there is no equivalent hebrew word that it could have been translated from...at least not one with the same depth of meaning as the greek 'logos'...a depth of meaning that the context indicates john was fully aware of and making full use of in his writing...
the only book of the new testament where there is any historical source suggesting that it was originally written in hebrew is the gospel according to matthew...and even in that case it is complicated...
basically the early christian writer papias stated that matthew originally wrote in hebrew...he stated this in a 'matter of fact' sense that gives the impression that this was common knowledge among the christians of his time...making it unlikely that papias was simply mistaken... later church fathers also stated that matthew originally wrote a gospel in hebrew...but it seems apparent that they were just repeating what papias had said...
if papias is to be regarded as accurate...then it appears that matthew -did- write a gospel in hebrew... however the gospel of matthew -we- have contains some of those greek characteristics i mentioned earlier...phrases that can only be reasonably regarded as having been composed in greek from the outset...meaning that it cannot have been a translation by matthew or anyone else of a hebrew original...
so if matthew wrote a gospel in hebrew...it is actually -not- the gospel of matthew that we have today...evidently any 'hebrew gospel of matthew' was lost fairly early on...and superseded by a new greek gospel also written by matthew as a brand new composition... there is precedent for something like that in the writings of josephus...josephus himself states that he originally wrote in hebrew...but the works of josephus that we have today are in greek and show telltale signs of having -always- been in greek...meaning he didn't merely translate his works but actually 'wrote them all over again' in a sense...
matthew likely did the same thing...
the first issue with that is that nobody -has- any 'original hebrew new testament'...if one ever existed... what some 'hebrew roots' people are doing is really to -translate- the new testament from greek...or more often right from english...into hebrew... so even if the new testament -was- originally in hebrew...their 'original hebrew new testament' would just be a translation of a translation...or worse... they cannot prove that their retranslation is what the originals said because nobody -has- any originals in hebrew...
furthermore...it is certain for most of the books in the new testament that they -were- written in greek...because they make use of greek concepts that simply don't exist in hebrew and cannot be articulated in hebrew...and also because they use greek words with no counterpart in hebrew...so they cannot have been a translation from hebrew into greek...
a good example is john's use of the greek word 'logos'...which is a greek philosophical concept...there is no equivalent hebrew word that it could have been translated from...at least not one with the same depth of meaning as the greek 'logos'...a depth of meaning that the context indicates john was fully aware of and making full use of in his writing...
the only book of the new testament where there is any historical source suggesting that it was originally written in hebrew is the gospel according to matthew...and even in that case it is complicated...
basically the early christian writer papias stated that matthew originally wrote in hebrew...he stated this in a 'matter of fact' sense that gives the impression that this was common knowledge among the christians of his time...making it unlikely that papias was simply mistaken... later church fathers also stated that matthew originally wrote a gospel in hebrew...but it seems apparent that they were just repeating what papias had said...
if papias is to be regarded as accurate...then it appears that matthew -did- write a gospel in hebrew... however the gospel of matthew -we- have contains some of those greek characteristics i mentioned earlier...phrases that can only be reasonably regarded as having been composed in greek from the outset...meaning that it cannot have been a translation by matthew or anyone else of a hebrew original...
so if matthew wrote a gospel in hebrew...it is actually -not- the gospel of matthew that we have today...evidently any 'hebrew gospel of matthew' was lost fairly early on...and superseded by a new greek gospel also written by matthew as a brand new composition... there is precedent for something like that in the writings of josephus...josephus himself states that he originally wrote in hebrew...but the works of josephus that we have today are in greek and show telltale signs of having -always- been in greek...meaning he didn't merely translate his works but actually 'wrote them all over again' in a sense...
matthew likely did the same thing...
R
finally i should also say that anyone claiming to have 'restored' the 'original hebrew new testament'...no matter how meticulous their efforts...has not really done so...
anyone who insists that their 'restored hebrew new testament' is -superior- to the greek new testament...or that their retranslation must be -the- definitive text of the new testament...or anything like that...is really just a false prophet...because they are taking their own work and claiming it is God's original word...
this is even more blatant when they go around claiming that they are the only ones qualified to 'restore' the new testament to the 'original hebrew'...leaving the rest of us dependent on their authority... in that case they are doing nothing less than trying to start a cult...
anyone who insists that their 'restored hebrew new testament' is -superior- to the greek new testament...or that their retranslation must be -the- definitive text of the new testament...or anything like that...is really just a false prophet...because they are taking their own work and claiming it is God's original word...
this is even more blatant when they go around claiming that they are the only ones qualified to 'restore' the new testament to the 'original hebrew'...leaving the rest of us dependent on their authority... in that case they are doing nothing less than trying to start a cult...
Numbers 35:29 So these things shall be for a statute of judgment unto you throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.
Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
R
some of the teachers in the hebrew roots movement have done exactly the kind of thing i mentioned in the post you are responding to...setting themselves up as the ultimate authority on what the bible says on the basis of their dubious claim that they are the only ones qualified to 'restore' the new testament to its 'original hebrew' form...
recently a person even attempted it right here on this site...the person i mentioned earlier in this thread...
so that is how it applies...i think we both agree that there are going to be false teachers in every denomination and movement...and this is something that false teachers and false prophets have tried in the hebrew roots movement...
recently a person even attempted it right here on this site...the person i mentioned earlier in this thread...
so that is how it applies...i think we both agree that there are going to be false teachers in every denomination and movement...and this is something that false teachers and false prophets have tried in the hebrew roots movement...
Thanks for explaining! I hadn't come across that, although when I looked into this movement it made me consider that God spoke His words first in mostly Hebrew, so it made me learn how to use Strong's, and use bibles claiming to try to use everything they know about Hebrew language and culture. I had never run into any of these people who were against other translations, only to compare. I added Holman's and CJB to my many translations, the idea of that being cultish like the KJV only people never occurred to me.
I am finding the CJB almost worthless, because they use old Hebrew spelling for all names and I speak English.
I am finding the CJB almost worthless, because they use old Hebrew spelling for all names and I speak English.
C
If one googles hard enough, he could find negative reviews about anything, including the faith. Does it mean the faith is bad?
The OP quoted Galatians. Does she understand what Paul's letters were about? Does she know him better that Peter?
Peter said: Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He wrote the same way in ALL his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people DISTORT, as they do to the other SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of LAWLESS men and fall from you secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Note: The scriptures in the context are the so called obsolete OT because Peter had already covered Paul's letters (written earlier than 2 Peter) in the same verse.
Of course Peter made mistakes all the time, didn't he?
The OP quoted Galatians. Does she understand what Paul's letters were about? Does she know him better that Peter?
Peter said: Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He wrote the same way in ALL his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people DISTORT, as they do to the other SCRIPTURES, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of LAWLESS men and fall from you secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Note: The scriptures in the context are the so called obsolete OT because Peter had already covered Paul's letters (written earlier than 2 Peter) in the same verse.
Of course Peter made mistakes all the time, didn't he?
K
....and, what some folks won't even consider, that lots of new testament was referring to old testament, for they did not have new testament while they were writing new testament. To further that thought, one must have knowledge and understanding of old testament before they can begin to understand the new.
Paul was intelligent to extreme, and knew the Torah by heart, word for word, committed to memory! wow! He spoke to those who had knowledge of Torah, he didn't bother explaining things we all should know already. Grave mistake trying to make sense of the last few chapters of the whole Bible, without having considered it all together as a whole.
Paul was intelligent to extreme, and knew the Torah by heart, word for word, committed to memory! wow! He spoke to those who had knowledge of Torah, he didn't bother explaining things we all should know already. Grave mistake trying to make sense of the last few chapters of the whole Bible, without having considered it all together as a whole.
2 Corinthians 11
19For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. 20For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face. 21To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. But in whatever respect anyone else is bold-- I speak in foolishness-- I am just as bold myself.
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:21
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
Galatians 5
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
19For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. 20For you tolerate it if anyone enslaves you, anyone devours you, anyone takes advantage of you, anyone exalts himself, anyone hits you in the face. 21To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. But in whatever respect anyone else is bold-- I speak in foolishness-- I am just as bold myself.
Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:21
Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
Galatians 5
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Romans 8:15
The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."
2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 10:5
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Did Jesus teach anything different than what our/His Father in heaven gave to Moses seeing that God doesn't change? After all, everything Jesus taught and did, before His death, was Old Testament. It's all in the Bible that God doesn't change and a testament in not in effect until the Testator has died.