Bible proof against single 'pastor' ruling!

[Yet]

In Acts 20, of which I have pointed to time and time again, receiving a collective yawn on this sight, there is sound proof that the 'lone wolf', no pun here, single 'pastor' concept is utterly foreign to the NT!

vs. 17 'and from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called the elders (presbyteros) of the 'church'(

Now watch real careful. In vs. 28 Paul is still talking to the presbyteros, 'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (bishops), to feed (poimainein: shepherd, pastor) the 'church'(ekklesia) of God......'

vs. 29 and 30, Paul warns that after he is dead, wolves would rise up and change the dynamic of the assembly, garnering followers after them.

There is only one example given to us concerning the single executive pastor scenario and it's in 3John.

Diotrephes climbed the ecclesiastical ladder to the top with a single bound. He already quit his job and even had an office ready with a shingle hanging on the wall and a card made up reading Pastor Diotrephes. This last part was in jest. But you get the point.....I hope!

Oh how he loved the preeminence. Has it changed any? Yes. It's gotten worse. At least there's no indication that he brow beated the sheep into tithing!

So scripture is clear. Elders, bishops, deacons, and pastors were all synonymous. A multitude of shepherds. No single one above the others.
Paul never wrote one letter to Pastor So and So! Don't take my word for it. Check it yourself.

Acts 20 is the word of God and the final death knell to this heresy!

 

[Gr8grace]

You are certifiable IMO. Do you do this for Jest?


I went to college for math and electronics. Not just hooking up speakers and radio's. But building the circuitry in radios, amps,computers and all sorts of electronics.


How far do you think I would of made it if I did not put myself under the authority of my professors? Sure, if they told me to go run down the street naked or give them cash on the side for their teachings ......I would of give them the bird.


Your not really the age you state right? Its not my business, I know. But you remind me of my father in-law. 65 going on 16.

 

[dcontroversal]

Have you studied the Greek word that is translated Bishop<----don't care for this anglicized word...but the Greek word carries the idea of overseer or one who oversees.......God's word is clear as to who he places in the assembly and why they are there.......

 

[Gr8grace]

Have you studied the Greek word that is translated Bishop<----don't care for this anglicized word...but the Greek word carries the idea of overseer or one who oversees.......God's word is clear as to who he places in the assembly and why they are there.......

I am probably to tough on Yet. I feel his pain and know exactly where he is coming from. Todays buildings are 99% dog and pony show or religion. But there are teachers out there that have the gift and operate in that gift..............He claims that they don't exist and he has given up. he is SOOOOOO close to the truth, but is convinced that nobody does it right anymore and he is missing out.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am probably to tough on Yet. I feel his pain and know exactly where he is coming from. Todays buildings are 99% dog and pony show or religion. But there are teachers out there that have the gift and operate in that gift..............He claims that they don't exist and he has given up. he is SOOOOOO close to the truth, but is convinced that nobody does it right anymore and he is missing out.

I agree.....for sure!

 

[Angela53510]

Here is my suggestion to you, Yet!

Read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit speak to you, instead of seeking out passages that seem to support your erroneous doctrines about pastors and churches.

The Bible has SO MUCH MORE in it! You can learn about transformation and renewing your mind, and the fruits of the Spirit and the history of Israel and the early church. The Proverbs are filled with wisdom, the Psalms with hope in God, the New Testament with instructions on how to follow Jesus.

Do you think Jesus went around railing against people preaching his gospel? Or did Paul rail against preachers? NO! He supported them, encouraged them and gave them advice.

I do hope you will soon let go of this terrible bitterness that is destroying your walk with God.

 

[crossnote]

In Acts 20, of which I have pointed to time and time again, receiving a collective yawn on this sight, there is sound proof that the 'lone wolf', no pun here, single 'pastor' concept is utterly foreign to the NT!

vs. 17 'and from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called the elders (presbyteros) of the 'church'(

Now watch real careful. In vs. 28 Paul is still talking to the presbyteros, 'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (bishops), to feed (poimainein: shepherd, pastor) the 'church'(ekklesia) of God......'

vs. 29 and 30, Paul warns that after he is dead, wolves would rise up and change the dynamic of the assembly, garnering followers after them.

There is only one example given to us concerning the single executive pastor scenario and it's in 3John.

Diotrephes climbed the ecclesiastical ladder to the top with a single bound. He already quit his job and even had an office ready with a shingle hanging on the wall and a card made up reading Pastor Diotrephes. This last part was in jest. But you get the point.....I hope!

Oh how he loved the preeminence. Has it changed any? Yes. It's gotten worse. At least there's no indication that he brow beated the sheep into tithing!

So scripture is clear. Elders, bishops, deacons, and pastors were all synonymous. A multitude of shepherds. No single one above the others.
Paul never wrote one letter to Pastor So and So! Don't take my word for it. Check it yourself.

Acts 20 is the word of God and the final death knell to this heresy!

You might enjoy a Presbyterian TYPE Church as they have a plurality of elders as seen in Acts 20.

 

[Gr8grace]

Here is my suggestion to you, Yet!

Read the Bible and let the Holy Spirit speak to you, instead of seeking out passages that seem to support your erroneous doctrines about pastors and churches.

The Bible has SO MUCH MORE in it! You can learn about transformation and renewing your mind, and the fruits of the Spirit and the history of Israel and the early church. The Proverbs are filled with wisdom, the Psalms with hope in God, the New Testament with instructions on how to follow Jesus.

Do you think Jesus went around railing against people preaching his gospel? Or did Paul rail against preachers? NO! He supported them, encouraged them and gave them advice.

I do hope you will soon let go of this terrible bitterness that is destroying your walk with God.

I agree sister. His "cause" has turned into his trap.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

a lot of churches have more than one pastor or elder...this is not news...

 

[crossnote]

a lot of churches have more than one pastor or elder...this is not news...

Correct, that's why I used the word 'type'.

 

[Yet]

More scriptural proof that a multiplicity of shepherds is the order of things.

1Peter 5:1-2. The elders which are among you I exhort...........feed (poimainein) the flock of God which is among you (not below you) taking the oversight thereof...........not for money....

The purpose of the shepherd elders is to bring the saints to perfection (maturity) for the work of the ministry. Every member participation in the assembly meeting as they come into maturity, hence more elders.

To the point again. The above verses support the multiplicity of shepherds in the context of the body.

Feed the flock or pastor the flock. Pastor here is a verb. All the elders are pastors. Poimen. Noun.

Once more. All the elders are told to pastor the flock. This makes them all pastors. Not a title or office but a spiritual function.

Diaconia means service as Paul magnified his service. Office should have never been used here. It's bogus.
Praxis was falsely translated also to office. However it simply means function.

Service, function. Are you getting it yet? Not a titled office. Thats arrogance, plain and simple. And guess what God thinks of arrogance.

Oh how men love the praise of the folks!

 

[notuptome]

More scriptural proof that a multiplicity of shepherds is the order of things.

1Peter 5:1-2. The elders which are among you I exhort...........feed (poimainein) the flock of God which is among you (not below you) taking the oversight thereof...........not for money....

The purpose of the shepherd elders is to bring the saints to perfection (maturity) for the work of the ministry. Every member participation in the assembly meeting as they come into maturity, hence more elders.

To the point again. The above verses support the multiplicity of shepherds in the context of the body.

Feed the flock or pastor the flock. Pastor here is a verb. All the elders are pastors. Poimen. Noun.

Once more. All the elders are told to pastor the flock. This makes them all pastors. Not a title or office but a spiritual function.

Diaconia means service as Paul magnified his service. Office should have never been used here. It's bogus.
Praxis was falsely translated also to office. However it simply means function.

Service, function. Are you getting it yet? Not a titled office. Thats arrogance, plain and simple. And guess what God thinks of arrogance.

Oh how men love the praise of the folks!

It is what you make it. You hate pastors because you have disqualified yourself. You have cultivated a mean bitter spirit against the church and the under-shepherd the pastor.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

In Acts 20, of which I have pointed to time and time again, receiving a collective yawn on this sight, there is sound proof that the 'lone wolf', no pun here, single 'pastor' concept is utterly foreign to the NT!

vs. 17 'and from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called the elders (presbyteros) of the 'church'(

Now watch real careful. In vs. 28 Paul is still talking to the presbyteros, 'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (bishops), to feed (poimainein: shepherd, pastor) the 'church'(ekklesia) of God......'

vs. 29 and 30, Paul warns that after he is dead, wolves would rise up and change the dynamic of the assembly, garnering followers after them.

There is only one example given to us concerning the single executive pastor scenario and it's in 3John.

Diotrephes climbed the ecclesiastical ladder to the top with a single bound. He already quit his job and even had an office ready with a shingle hanging on the wall and a card made up reading Pastor Diotrephes. This last part was in jest. But you get the point.....I hope!

Oh how he loved the preeminence. Has it changed any? Yes. It's gotten worse. At least there's no indication that he brow beated the sheep into tithing!

There is also no evidence that he was an elder of the church, either. That's a possible scenario, but not the only one. If we look at the evidence of what they did in church in the New Testament, they didn't just sit there while the pastor spoke. Prophets could prophesy. All could prophesy. Those who were gifted to teach, taught. There were also meetings where the church would gather and discuss certain things, like when Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem together in Acts 15 before the apostles and elders came together. In this type of setting, a non-elder could try to promote himself.

Maybe he was trying to be the official ordained leader of the congregation. But this requires a bit of conjecture.

As far as the Bible goes, you make a good point. I don't see any scripture that teaches one pastor over the other elders. Repeatedly, the apostles appointed a group of elders from within the congregation. The Bible calls uses the words 'evangelist', and 'apostles of Christ' in relation to Timothy's ministry. It never calls him 'the pastor' or 'bishop.' He was to appoint bishops. Timothy had an itinerant ministry. There is no indication that Titus was going to be 'the pastor' on Crete either. In the 1800's, certain theologians started calling these epistles 'the pastorals' and the title bishop for Timothy in the title in the KJV was just added there and wasn't a part of the Greek text, from what I've read.

Now, some people read the epistles as if Timothy were 'the pastor.' But then he had instructions about appointing 'the bishop.' That still doesn't make sense. He was probably appointing bishops/elder in an apostolic role, either as an apostle himself, or as Paul's delegate, or both.

Historically, church leaders were either called elders or bishops. The role split into two probably in the second century. In the New Testament and in Clement's epistle, elders are bishops. Acts 20:28 supports this idea as you point out. Paul saluted a plurality of bishops in Philippi, not 'the bishop' of the city.

So scripture is clear. Elders, bishops, deacons, and pastors were all synonymous. A multitude of shepherds. No single one above the others.
Paul never wrote one letter to Pastor So and So! Don't take my word for it. Check it yourself.

I don't see evidence for deacons and elders/bishops being the same thing. They are treated separately in the text. Paul also salutes bishops and deacons in Philippians. That's two categories.

 

[iwant2serve]

Because one person gets up and speaks in front of the people does not mean people are not being fed by others. Many churches have different activities that go on during the week that people can attend if they desire. Also a church having a Senior Pastor with other Pastors (Elders, Bishops) under them is not a bad thing either.
This sounds to me like you have in someway experienced some bad experiences or you come to the place where you disagree how some churches operate. You have your focus in the wrong place (on people) not where it should be 9On Jesus) and as long as you looking at people you will never find peace.

 

[presidente]

You might enjoy a Presbyterian TYPE Church as they have a plurality of elders as seen in Acts 20.

I think Presbyterianism has done a lot to confuse the issue.

In some of the Germanic languages, people used 'priest' or something similar to that to refer to the church elders, but also used it to refer to kohenim, descendants of Aaron in the Old Testament. The word actually comes from the Greek word for elders. Latin didn't have this problem.

Luther wrote about the 'Priesthood of all believers.' The issues is not the eldership of all believers. Roman Catholics thought of elders as being between God and man, offering the sacrifice of the host on the altar. So there were other theological issues.

So the Reformed movement in Geneva changed the name of the church leaders from 'elders' to 'pastors' (in their language.) They still used Bible verses about elders to refer to pastors, but 'pastor' became the main designation. And trying to have a theocracy, they copied models of community government from Greek-speaking Christian communities in North Africa and Syria in the first century.

There is the Greek word 'presbuteros', which was used for church elders. Some Christian communities had 'garousia', also translated as 'elders.'

So Geneva had elders of the city, and called them 'elders.' They weren't ordained ministers, but church and state were intertwined, so they were influential in the Reformed church.

John Knox thought Geneva had the finest school of Christ their was. The Presbyterian movement in Scotland copied Geneva's city government and made it a national church system. They took their city elders and turned them into a church office. At first, their conferences and documents used 'elder' versus to apply to pastors. But they called these unordained board members 'elders' and after a hundred or two hundred years, they referred to Bible references about 'elders' in reference to these unordained board elders.

The Presbyterian model has been very influential.

And now we have a lot of confusion. We have this unbiblical concept of the board elder in some churches, who doesn't pastor or teach. Some people don't realize that the 'elder' passages are about what we call 'pastors.' They think some board member has a long list of requirements in scripture, while not realizing that those are about their 'pastors.' Then you end up with two roles, with 'the pastor' over the elders with no Biblical justification.

 

[presidente]

This sounds to me like you have in someway experienced some bad experiences or you come to the place where you disagree how some churches operate. You have your focus in the wrong place (on people) not where it should be 9On Jesus) and as long as you looking at people you will never find peace.

I remember writing some posts on this topic after finally seeing what scripture was saying on the issue (or seeing it to a greater degree) and someone posted I must have had some bad experience with a pastor.

That wasn't it at all. My experience was with reading the word and understanding it. The light bulb goes on and you get understanding. That's an experience, too.

 

[just-me]

More scriptural proof that a multiplicity of shepherds is the order of things.

1Peter 5:1-2. The elders which are among you I exhort...........feed (poimainein) the flock of God which is among you (not below you) taking the oversight thereof...........not for money....

The purpose of the shepherd elders is to bring the saints to perfection (maturity) for the work of the ministry. Every member participation in the assembly meeting as they come into maturity, hence more elders.

To the point again. The above verses support the multiplicity of shepherds in the context of the body.

Feed the flock or pastor the flock. Pastor here is a verb. All the elders are pastors. Poimen. Noun.

Once more. All the elders are told to pastor the flock. This makes them all pastors. Not a title or office but a spiritual function.

Diaconia means service as Paul magnified his service. Office should have never been used here. It's bogus.
Praxis was falsely translated also to office. However it simply means function.

Service, function. Are you getting it yet? Not a titled office. Thats arrogance, plain and simple. And guess what God thinks of arrogance.

Oh how men love the praise of the folks!

An elder is one who has experienced things that the younger generations haven't. A bishop is an "overseer" but not necessarily a preacher. He actually is a governor. I see where you are coming from.

Deacons, are essentially administrators of the bishop. If a person really wants clarification for this, study the economics of Israel concerning the priestly tribe in the OT. The tithes were to sustain the priests that were spread throughout the nation because they didn't have an inheritance. Then the Levites who were throughout the nation gave their tithes to the descendants of Aaron who lived in Jerusalem which was the "headquarters" of the nation.

The priests were also obligated to feed the poor who were in the towns that they ministered in with the tithes they received. On feast days, they read from the book to the entire congregation, and helped people, who were naive, to understand the instructions given in God's word.

Under the new priesthood of Christ, bishops and deacons essentially fill the same role.

 

[Yet]

Vs. 35 in this chapter this verse has been used on the folks to get more money. 'It is more blessed to give than receive'. We've all heard this one directed to the folks during offering time but we've never heard it delivered in context. And it is more blessed to give but this was not aimed at the folks.

Paul was saying in vs. 33 and 34, I have coveted no man's silver, or gold or apparel......my hands (by working a job) have provided for my
needs and those with me'.

See this: vs. 35, I have showed you all things that so working a job you should take care of the poor.'

Did he change his audience here. No he didn't.

He still addressing the elders which we now know from His holy word are overseers or pastors! Plurality.

The pastors are to work secular jobs in order to have the wherewithal to help the needy.

Go back and read it again. This was written by man moved by the Holy Spirit to write. I know you'll get mad at me but honest, I didn't write it. News flash! I just arrived on this planet in recent years. You can't blame me forever for what God wrote! Smile!

Many will say 'but there's a senior 'pastor' in there somewhere! ' You bet there is. His name is Jesus! They all learned to operate in the Spirit, decently and in order! Not perfect, but striving to that end!

 

[notuptome]

Vs. 35 in this chapter this verse has been used on the folks to get more money. 'It is more blessed to give than receive'. We've all heard this one directed to the folks during offering time but we've never heard it delivered in context. And it is more blessed to give but this was not aimed at the folks.

Paul was saying in vs. 33 and 34, I have coveted no man's silver, or gold or apparel......my hands (by working a job) have provided for my
needs and those with me'.

See this: vs. 35, I have showed you all things that so working a job you should take care of the poor.'

Did he change his audience here. No he didn't.

He still addressing the elders which we now know from His holy word are overseers or pastors! Plurality.

The pastors are to work secular jobs in order to have the wherewithal to help the needy.

Go back and read it again. This was written by man moved by the Holy Spirit to write. I know you'll get mad at me but honest, I didn't write it. News flash! I just arrived on this planet in recent years. You can't blame me forever for what God wrote! Smile!

Many will say 'but there's a senior 'pastor' in there somewhere! ' You bet there is. His name is Jesus! They all learned to operate in the Spirit, decently and in order! Not perfect, but striving to that end!

Ah the naked truth. You just hate the idea of free will offerings in the church.

Bitter and cheap. What a testimony. Did Christ not give unto you freely?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mpaper345]

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters(2 Corinthians 10:8-9).

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation(Hebrews 13:7).

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you(Hebrews 13:17).

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you(Hebrews 13:24).

While this is true to obey them that have the rule over you,there is no single person above all the saints with that rulership except for Christ,who is the head of the Church.People should not recognize the Pope in this capacity.

When these people have the rule over the saints to guide them it would only be talking of in a certain area,for there are many people in this capacity all over the world over certain individuals.

And although they have the rule over certain saints,they are not greater than any other saint,for God said He wants equality among the saints,and even though it says a woman should not talk in Church,not to usurp authority above a man,a man and woman are equal in the Lord.

And even though they have the rule over certain saints the Bible says that the saints need no man to teach them but the Spirit will teach them,which means that even though they have the authority above certain saints,the saints can know and understand the Bible just as well as them.

Goid does not give the preachers anymore understanding of the Bible than any other saint,for whether the preacher is studying by himself,or a common pew sitter is studying by himself,they can both understand the Bible equally as well by the Spirit.

But the preacher still has an important role,but actually the saints whether preacher or a common saint learn off each other,for we all come across things that other saints have not studied and come across,and a common saint can actually teach the preacher a thing or two if they study the Bible as well as the preacher.

The advantage of the preacher,since he is in that role,will take the time to understand the Bible and learn,where a lot of common saints do not get as involved with trying to understand the Bible therefore they will fall short of what the preacher knows,but if the common saint would apply themself as much as the preacher they would understand the same by the Spirit.

That is the advantage of preachers as a whole,because that is their position,to understand the whole of the Bible,although all saints should do the same,but since the common saints are not in that position as a preacher,some of them will be lazy and not try to understand the Bible as a whole.