Bible proof against single 'pastor' ruling!

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Mitspa

Guest
#21
Im sorry guys I just don't see Yet as being some crazy crusader ...the points he makes are often very solid biblical points and we should at least consider the idea that the modern religious system is in need of much reform. The reform should begin in the area of the most corruption ..which is clearly the greed issue.
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
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#22
The word speaks for itself. Clear as the pimple on the end of your nose. You are not ready for it YET....thus my handle!

Some 'will not endure sound doctrine'.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#23
Im sorry guys I just don't see Yet as being some crazy crusader ...the points he makes are often very solid biblical points and we should at least consider the idea that the modern religious system is in need of much reform. The reform should begin in the area of the most corruption ..which is clearly the greed issue.
the problem is that whenever he targets the 'greed issue' he takes up unbiblical positions that are harmful to the church...

his solution to the 'greed issue' is to take away pastors' paychecks and try to force them to serve both God and mammon...
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#24
In Acts 20, of which I have pointed to time and time again, receiving a collective yawn on this sight, there is sound proof that the 'lone wolf', no pun here, single 'pastor' concept is utterly foreign to the NT!

vs. 17 'and from Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus, and called the elders (presbyteros) of the 'church'(

Now watch real careful. In vs. 28 Paul is still talking to the presbyteros, 'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers (bishops), to feed (poimainein: shepherd, pastor) the 'church'(ekklesia) of God......'

vs. 29 and 30, Paul warns that after he is dead, wolves would rise up and change the dynamic of the assembly, garnering followers after them.

There is only one example given to us concerning the single executive pastor scenario and it's in 3John.

Diotrephes climbed the ecclesiastical ladder to the top with a single bound. He already quit his job and even had an office ready with a shingle hanging on the wall and a card made up reading Pastor Diotrephes. This last part was in jest. But you get the point.....I hope!

Oh how he loved the preeminence. Has it changed any? Yes. It's gotten worse. At least there's no indication that he brow beated the sheep into tithing!

So scripture is clear. Elders, bishops, deacons, and pastors were all synonymous. A multitude of shepherds. No single one above the others.
Paul never wrote one letter to Pastor So and So! Don't take my word for it. Check it yourself.

Acts 20 is the word of God and the final death knell to this heresy!
Thank you for the clarification. I will sleep better tonight.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#25
Paul makes a CLEAR distinction between himself and those that 'peddle' the Word of God.

IF they 'peddle' their 'wares', their cds, their books, their owness, then they are clearly FALSE ministers -
and he that follows them is a FOOL!

it is written,
There is no voice without significance - the Lord TELLS us to call NO man rabbi or master'...
for if we speak those words, WE ARE UNDER THEIR POWER!!!

of course there IS an 'hierarchy' in 'God's True Church'..this is very clear, there is always a leader...
whether it be James, Ezra, or Moses..that is God's pattern..
but it is written,
many shall come in My Name, saying 'I Am Christ, Jesus is Lord', and shall deceive many.'

take heed to whom you call 'preacher or pastor', for whomever you submit yourself to..
his servant you are...

as for me and my house, with the current 'religious-babylonic-confusion', we shall go 'directly to The Lord'.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#26
Paul makes a CLEAR distinction between himself and those that 'peddle' the Word of God.

IF they 'peddle' their 'wares', their cds, their books, their owness, then they are clearly FALSE ministers -
and he that follows them is a FOOL!

it is written,
There is no voice without significance - the Lord TELLS us to call NO man rabbi or master'...
for if we speak those words, WE ARE UNDER THEIR POWER!!!

of course there IS an 'hierarchy' in 'God's True Church'..this is very clear, there is always a leader...
whether it be James, Ezra, or Moses..that is God's pattern..
but it is written,
many shall come in My Name, saying 'I Am Christ, Jesus is Lord', and shall deceive many.'

take heed to whom you call 'preacher or pastor', for whomever you submit yourself to..
his servant you are...

as for me and my house, with the current 'religious-babylonic-confusion', we shall go 'directly to The Lord'.
Hebrews 13:17. Not to mention Hebrews 10:25

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
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#27
The word shows a plurality of pastors in the assembly. Bishops, presbyters, pastors all synonymous.

No one can point out the single 'pastor' who rules above the other pastors. But still I'm the one called crazy.

Now we either go by the book or we go by the 'traditions of men that make void the book, the word of God'!

If you guys are fine with the 'traditions of self appointed men' then I'm sorry for you!

What I teach from His word is obviously not for you but it is for others who are done with tired old church the way it's being done.

If you are fine with your tail glued to a pew, paying your tithes, and swallowing spoon fed sermons that don't square with scripture, then stay there. Don't you dare study these things out. You haven't so far! Go back to sleep. Sorry I disturbed you're complacency.

For you who are determined to know God's take on things, study for yourself. Don't take this crazy guys word for it!

And I will keep on teaching His truth from His word for those who have ears to receive it, for those who CAN endure sound doctrine! That welcome it with a hungry heart!
 
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oldthennew

Guest
#28
Hebrews 13:17. Not to mention Hebrews 10:25

For the cause of Christ
Roger
======================================

NOTUPTOME,

ABSOLUTLY, like we SAID in our POST.....there IS a DEFINATE HIerchery...
James, Ezra, Moses, they were LEADERS to whom we are to SUBMit to..
the problem being in TODAY'S world, there is RAMPANT CORRUPTION, child molestation, slave trading,
false teachers, lovers of money, the list just goes-on-and-on!!!!

personally, in our opinion, we should SUBMIT ourselves to the MERCY of God, and not
to any of these, for we have been their 'captives', and we have NO desire to return to Egypt!!!
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
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#29
For those who have ears: the NT says we all are to minister in the local meeting. That makes us all ministers...right? That means we are all 'called to the ministry'...according to the word! Does that mean we all should quit our jobs?

Why were the pastors told to labor to financially help the poor if we are to quit our day jobs? Enquiring mind wants to know!

Again, this is for those that love His liberating word! I love the rest of you but it's not for you! You've made that clear enough for this dummy.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,092
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#30
Many will say 'but there's a senior 'pastor' in there somewhere! ' You bet there is. His name is Jesus! They all learned to operate in the Spirit, decently and in order! Not perfect, but striving to that end!
The Bible doesn't have the term 'senior pastor.' It does mention the Chief Pastor in I Peter 5. That term is in reference to Christ.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,092
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#31
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you(Hebrews 13:17).
I spoke with a man who worked on a translation of the New Testament, and he said this verse might better be translated 'be persuaded by them who guide you.' I've read similar things from other sources. One word has to do with yielding to persuasion, rather than more hierarchical words used for submission.

And although they have the rule over certain saints,they are not greater than any other saint,for God said He wants equality among the saints,and even though it says a woman should not talk in Church,not to usurp authority above a man,a man and woman are equal in the Lord.
I see 'equality' a an obsession of western Europeans and North Americans. People will assume or read the idea into texts when it is not there. The greatest among us is the servant of all. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues unless he interprets, that the church may receive edifying. 'But whosoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.' Some people are greater than others. We are not all equal. But being great isn't about domineering over other people as it was with Gentile empires like Rome.

Paul did mention equality when he argued that a church that had a surplus of material wealth should share with a church in another city or region that had lack.

Goid does not give the preachers anymore understanding of the Bible than any other saint,for whether the preacher is studying by himself,or a common pew sitter is studying by himself,they can both understand the Bible equally as well by the Spirit.
With a few exceptions, our translations usually use 'preach' in reference to proclaiming the Gospel to unbelievers. In church, we are to listen to the ministry of preachers, prophets, exhorters, etc.

The idea of one guy in front giving the sermon every week who is 'the preacher' isn't really in the Bible. I Corinthians 14 is the longest chapter that tells us what to do in church. It's the only passage besides chapter 11 that goes into any great detail as to what church meetings should look like, and chapter 11 is mostly about what they should not look like. In it we see that 'every one of you' could share a psalm, doctrine, tongue, revelation, interpretation, and that all things are to be done unto edifying. It doesn't mention elders or pastors, who would minister in one of the gifts listed like anyone else. It does mention prophets and also the idea of all prophesying.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,092
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#32
Yet,

The Bible also says that the elders who rule well are worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. The Bible also teaches to share with teachers. And of those who preach the Gospel, it says that they that preach the Gospel should live of the gospel. The context was talking about apostles like Paul, Barnabas, and also the Lord's brethren. Paul and Barnabas would travel to people who had not yet believed the Gospel and preach the Gospel to them. They didn't just 'preach the Gospel' by teaching the faithful week after week on Sunday morning.

What is it mean when it says that elders are worthy of double honor? The context before it is about honoring widows, and it seems pretty obvious that they were being materially supported. In Jerusalem, there was a daily distribution of food for them. The elders that rule well are worthy of double honor.

Can honor mean financial provision? I took a course in Classics class in college, and there were a few bits of information that actually helped me. In the Illiad, Achilles was upset because his honor was taken from him. What was his honor? His honor was the spoils of war that were given to him to honor him. He spoke up against the general, who took a girl from him who shared his bed, a girl he'd received as part of his 'honor'-- the portion of the spoils of war divided to him to honor him. So 'honor' referred to compensation to give to honor someone, even back 300 years before the New Testament. In both cases the word time is used (pronounced something like 'tea may' probably with long vowels and without the English dipthongs on the y's).

So we do see Paul working with his own hands to support himself, even though he actually had the right to full support for preaching the Gospel. He pointed to his own example of self-support when exhorting the elders. Might not the elders also have a right to full support? At the very least, it is not wrong to give to them and support them, and indeed a church should, especially if they rule well. I don't think this has to take the form of a salary from a budget. People can give gifts as well.

IMO, in the US, it's best to give a gift to an individual and say it's a personal gift, the kind they don't have to pay taxes on. You can also write that on a note on an envelope. If you aren't even going to itemize, why give money in such a way that 10 to 30% of your gift you want to give to the Lord goes to Uncle Sam to pay for stuff like Planned Parenthood murdering babies?

If someone does ministry in house churches or other churches that don't have a sharp clergy-laity distinction, how to list gifts is really fuzzy. Should someone who ministers like this call himself 'clergy' on his taxes when his belief system is anti-clergy? If someone gives it in response to ministry, do you count it as income from activities not engaged in for profit? But if they say, this is a personal gift to bless you brother, the kind you don't have to pay taxes on, then it's all clear. If it's less than 10k or whatever the cut-off is, the brother doesn't have to pay taxes on it, and Caesar doesn't get a cut.
 

iwant2serve

Senior Member
Apr 12, 2009
513
28
28
#33
To Yet:

You are speaking as though there was only one church per city with many pastors, elders, bishops and deacons in it. Only there were many churches in one city with a pastor or overseer to oversee the congregation. Have you tried to pastor a church and work a full time job? I do it and it is not easy to care for peoples spiritual needs and help. study the bible to prepare to teach and take care of home giving my wife time and working 12 hours to have a income. This is why most churches give the leader/leaders a salary.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#34
To Yet:

You are speaking as though there was only one church per city with many pastors, elders, bishops and deacons in it. Only there were many churches in one city with a pastor or overseer to oversee the congregation. Have you tried to pastor a church and work a full time job? I do it and it is not easy to care for peoples spiritual needs and help. study the bible to prepare to teach and take care of home giving my wife time and working 12 hours to have a income. This is why most churches give the leader/leaders a salary.
I think Im somewhere in between Yet and some others...I do agree with many of his points, do you see anything in what he saying that you can agree with?
 
L

LT

Guest
#35
I think Yet has a good point. I'm sure some of the application might stray from center, but there is definitely something wrong with the congregation model passed down to us from the RCC.
It starts it's error from the top, and erodes the rest of the structure.

Authority and submission are very interesting topics.
Understanding submission, and lifting up those with submissive/serving hearts,
basically means that those who BELONG in authority, under the NT structure, are not the ones that seek such position.
This though makes Seminary an apostatic mode of leadership requirement, as the point of going is to qualify for leadership.
If it was just for learning, with no job prospect, then it would be praiseworthy.
 
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LT

Guest
#36
Pay the worker his wages.
But employment standards need to be considered.
There is no such thing as 'laity' when it comes to the Biblical model of the Church.
Lukewarm gets spit out.
 
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tonga

Guest
#37
Hi all, First time posting. I've been reading and wanted to add a situation I'm presently in. Please know as I've been accused of wanting the home in question. That's not the case. I want to follow the Bible, not what is described today as "church". I've recently stopped going to church and am disheartened, but want to continue as a Christian.
New pastor is moving to a home that's 1/3 to 1/2 million dollars which here is rich. Is this a waste.sin? Sounds judgmental but we're called to judge spiritual things, never judge personal motives. Should a pastor live in a home like this or no?
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#38
Hi all, First time posting. I've been reading and wanted to add a situation I'm presently in. Please know as I've been accused of wanting the home in question. That's not the case. I want to follow the Bible, not what is described today as "church". I've recently stopped going to church and am disheartened, but want to continue as a Christian.
New pastor is moving to a home that's 1/3 to 1/2 million dollars which here is rich. Is this a waste.sin? Sounds judgmental but we're called to judge spiritual things, never judge personal motives. Should a pastor live in a home like this or no?
There are so many that are clearly motivated by greed... many of us in ministry have made our own money and have given and sown and reap the blessing of God... so its not always clear if some are fleecing the flock or are being blessed by God?
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
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#39
To Yet:

You are speaking as though there was only one church per city with many pastors, elders, bishops and deacons in it. Only there were many churches in one city with a pastor or overseer to oversee the congregation. Have you tried to pastor a church and work a full time job? I do it and it is not easy to care for peoples spiritual needs and help. study the bible to prepare to teach and take care of home giving my wife time and working 12 hours to have a income. This is why most churches give the leader/leaders a salary.
That sounds very churchy but can you show this tired old horse just one NT verse that validates the one man show elevated 'pastor'! I believe that you would agree with me that the word of God should be our guide on this. God bless!
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
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#40
Pay the worker his wages.
But employment standards need to be considered.
There is no such thing as 'laity' when it comes to the Biblical model of the Church.
Lukewarm gets spit out.
There is a big difference between giving food and shelter(basic needs) to the traveling preacher/missionary/evangelist and the local body of elders who are told to work secular jobs.