Calvinism and Tulip theology
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You're missing the point. You're right. We were slaves to sin. Since when does a slave get choice?
You're right. Jesus set us free. Notice, Jesus did that. We did not.
Every scripture you cited proved Total Depravity and yet you keep declaring "we have a choice."
What does "redeemed" mean to you? The product chooses to hop onto the checkout belt and pay for itself?
You're right. Jesus set us free. Notice, Jesus did that. We did not.
Every scripture you cited proved Total Depravity and yet you keep declaring "we have a choice."
What does "redeemed" mean to you? The product chooses to hop onto the checkout belt and pay for itself?
A choice to accept Jesus as my new master or to serve the flesh.
I know from personal experience that there is a war going on inside me. Sometimes i givein to the flesh and sometimes to the Spirit. The difference is whether i try to do it alone or i surrender to God and allow The Spirit to gain the victory for me.
God has let me make both choices and experienced both results.
On my own I'm totally depraved but with Jesus i am able to overcome.
Laurence M Vance wrote "The Other Side of Calvinism" which lays out the issue in great detail. ISBN 0-9628898-7-3. Not light reading but a great study source.
Now all men must make a choice for Christ. Men received the ability to do so because one result of the fall in the garden was receiving the knowledge of good and evil. So while we are dead in trespass and sin Christ in the Spirit of God has lighted every man that has come into the world. John 3 shows that men see the light and turn from it because their deeds are evil.
Much of what is said about Calvinism is what another believes Calvin intended in his treatise. Many of those were enemies of Calvin so he was not interpreted in the most favorable light.
No man is saved of his own accord but God draws him through the Holy Spirit and the word of God to Christ. Man still makes the choice to receive or reject. It is Christ that does the saving and not the will of man.
As far as election goes we are elect in Christ. Israel is elect among the nations. So who is elect is determined according to the context of the passage.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Now all men must make a choice for Christ. Men received the ability to do so because one result of the fall in the garden was receiving the knowledge of good and evil. So while we are dead in trespass and sin Christ in the Spirit of God has lighted every man that has come into the world. John 3 shows that men see the light and turn from it because their deeds are evil.
Much of what is said about Calvinism is what another believes Calvin intended in his treatise. Many of those were enemies of Calvin so he was not interpreted in the most favorable light.
No man is saved of his own accord but God draws him through the Holy Spirit and the word of God to Christ. Man still makes the choice to receive or reject. It is Christ that does the saving and not the will of man.
As far as election goes we are elect in Christ. Israel is elect among the nations. So who is elect is determined according to the context of the passage.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You really don't want God's fairness if you think about it bro because that entails justice. What we want and desire are His mercies and grace. If we all got what was fair we'd all be doomed. And don't fall into the Socinian error of thinking that God's ways have to meet the qualifications of finite human reason, nor remain perplexed about the awesome nature of God or His ways.
You're exactly correct, teh DoG are the true doctrines of the Gospel. John MacArthur crystallized this in his book 'The Gospel According to Jesus". Since the church wasn't accustomed to hearing the truth some vehemenently attacked JM and called the gospel "Lordship Salvation' a term he didn't coin. Also around the same time Chuck Swindoll came out with 'The Grace Aswakening" which crystallizes FGT and antinomianism, the polar opposite of the transforming Gospel. Of course the latter is a DTS alumnus so that is the false teaching being taught at DTS. It started with Lewis Sperry Chafer. On a more personal note I know of a professor at Dallas Baptist University who teaches that salvation is a personal achievement that we should boast in. His proof text is Jeremiah 9:24.
Anyhow, this/these error(s) have spread to many churches and has permeated pulpits. People thus do not know any better and will not have their antinomianism challenged. Many many people are going to be in for a rude awakening who think they've punched their ticket to heaven and have no transformation in their lives.
Anyhow, this/these error(s) have spread to many churches and has permeated pulpits. People thus do not know any better and will not have their antinomianism challenged. Many many people are going to be in for a rude awakening who think they've punched their ticket to heaven and have no transformation in their lives.
Its really just a way to describe Salvation. Its perfectly biblical. When you try to make calvinism false you are really arguing against the bible. Not many who are against calvinism know that.
Calvinism is against mens working for and toward Salvation. Its showing that Salvation is the Work of God, from beginning to end.
I suppose most who think salvation can be lost must reject calvinism as well. Not surprising.
Calvinism is against mens working for and toward Salvation. Its showing that Salvation is the Work of God, from beginning to end.
I suppose most who think salvation can be lost must reject calvinism as well. Not surprising.
I can't remember if I told you, but I accepted "Calvinism" before I even knew who John Calvin was. In fact, I've never read much more than quotes from him.
I told my Arminian pastor what I was seeing in Scripture after reading the book of Romans about 10 times. He told me what I was talking about was Calvinism then started telling me about Calvin burning Servetus (not totally true..the Geneva Council executed him and Calvin wanted to behead him)
I left the church not too long after that. He wanted me to be part of the evangelizing team, and I started meeting with them, but I didn't feel comfortable bringing people to a church that taught against eternal security. I figured, why should I stay somewhere that taught something I thought was harmful to new believers? So, I left.
I told my Arminian pastor what I was seeing in Scripture after reading the book of Romans about 10 times. He told me what I was talking about was Calvinism then started telling me about Calvin burning Servetus (not totally true..the Geneva Council executed him and Calvin wanted to behead him)
I left the church not too long after that. He wanted me to be part of the evangelizing team, and I started meeting with them, but I didn't feel comfortable bringing people to a church that taught against eternal security. I figured, why should I stay somewhere that taught something I thought was harmful to new believers? So, I left.
Wasn't Zane Hodge the main anti-Lordship guy? I remember hearing that Hodge and MacArthur did some verbal sparring.
I really DO NOT understand the argument that anti-Lordship Salvation people have. Salvation produces fruit of obedience and good works. The fruit doesn't cause salvation, but it is a result of salvation. If there's no fruit, over the long haul, it's likely there's no salvation and it's a false faith, although believers can experience a long period of fruitlessness. Simple enough to me.
One individual on the site doesn't like either Piper or MacArthur because of Lordship Salvation. I don't particularly care for either one of them personality-wise; I like either RC Sproul or David Platt more. But, I wouldn't question their teachings except on some minor issues..I'm not a big fan of MacArthur's view on mental health drugs or his view on Genesis 6. I have heard Piper say a few things that seemed like he didn't believe in eternal security, but maybe he just didn't word his responses to people clearly on those few occasions.
I really DO NOT understand the argument that anti-Lordship Salvation people have. Salvation produces fruit of obedience and good works. The fruit doesn't cause salvation, but it is a result of salvation. If there's no fruit, over the long haul, it's likely there's no salvation and it's a false faith, although believers can experience a long period of fruitlessness. Simple enough to me.
One individual on the site doesn't like either Piper or MacArthur because of Lordship Salvation. I don't particularly care for either one of them personality-wise; I like either RC Sproul or David Platt more. But, I wouldn't question their teachings except on some minor issues..I'm not a big fan of MacArthur's view on mental health drugs or his view on Genesis 6. I have heard Piper say a few things that seemed like he didn't believe in eternal security, but maybe he just didn't word his responses to people clearly on those few occasions.
There was one guy in the chat site who changed his mind, from Arminian theology to Reformed theology. So, I guess he's one person who did change his position after some of the Reformed chatters influenced him.
He was previously a charismatic type of person. I remember him telling about being a catcher for some healing services, and a obese woman fell backwards and cut his skin with one of her rings.
He was previously a charismatic type of person. I remember him telling about being a catcher for some healing services, and a obese woman fell backwards and cut his skin with one of her rings.