Calvinism and Tulip theology
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It's too bad that Calvin didn't keep his tulips sealed...
"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son"
"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son"
There are a few of those "modified" verses that could be floating around.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God,who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. ( Elect)
This one actually fits in good as Jesus is the Elect and if we have Him in us - we too become part of the elect.
But God is the Savior of all men - especially of believers - now the question is - will all men receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness which only comes through the work of the Lord Jesus Christ? Rom. 5:17
Yes, he was the main guy pretty much. He went to some extreme about a person stranded on a beach, and if the verse "whosoever believes on me has eternal life" washed up on shore and the person believed it, not even knowing who Jesus is, or what He has done, he would be saved. That's frankly absurd mysticism because you cannot divorce Christ from the Gospel and still have the Gospel. It is all about Christ, who He is, what He has accomplished.
Here is a link about Hodges absurd and unbiblical illustration.
People have been so conditioned against works having anything to do with salvation (which technically is incorrect) that they conflate evidence, sanctification, holiness, with a works gospel. They simply cannot and will not hear it, and that is a fact. "Your preaching a works Gospel" is spewed ad nauseum and frankly in ignorance. One more big reason is in the fact they hold to a truncated gospel.
I know John MacArthur has changed his teachings on different issues, and he's become even more Reformed in latter years (at least he seems to preach DoG more often). I happen to enjoy him and sometimes Piper especially his take against the heresy of WoF/Prosperity false gospel.
BTW, the heretics are now infiltrating Africa, fleecing the sheep their with their lies. 2 Peter 2 in action. Liek Pipe says, and I agree: "I abominate the prosperity gospel" and I have no room for those who support that satanic lie and those who teach it. They are all false teachers, each and every single one of them along with their supporters.
Here is a link about Hodges absurd and unbiblical illustration.
People have been so conditioned against works having anything to do with salvation (which technically is incorrect) that they conflate evidence, sanctification, holiness, with a works gospel. They simply cannot and will not hear it, and that is a fact. "Your preaching a works Gospel" is spewed ad nauseum and frankly in ignorance. One more big reason is in the fact they hold to a truncated gospel.
I know John MacArthur has changed his teachings on different issues, and he's become even more Reformed in latter years (at least he seems to preach DoG more often). I happen to enjoy him and sometimes Piper especially his take against the heresy of WoF/Prosperity false gospel.
BTW, the heretics are now infiltrating Africa, fleecing the sheep their with their lies. 2 Peter 2 in action. Liek Pipe says, and I agree: "I abominate the prosperity gospel" and I have no room for those who support that satanic lie and those who teach it. They are all false teachers, each and every single one of them along with their supporters.
It's too bad that Calvin didn't keep his tulips sealed...
"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son"
"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son"
BTW, to the Jewish mind, through whom the Holy Spirit had written that passage, the term world carried a whole new concept of salvation; when John saw that God not only loved the Jews, but also Gentiles, that was the crescendo of John 3:16 in using the word world, that is, that God also loves the world, not just the Jews. That is the magnificence of that passage that took the Jew aback: "the world!".
And by biblical analysis and implementation of 2 Timothy 2:15 it does limit itself to the elect, scattered around the world.
That's pretty funny. Was that stand up comedy, or sit down comedy?
BTW, to the Jewish mind, through whom the Holy Spirit had written that passage, the term world carried a whole new concept of salvation; when John saw that God not only loved the Jews, but also Gentiles, that was the crescendo of John 3:16 in using the word world, that is, that God also loves the world, not just the Jews. That is the magnificence of that passage that took the Jew aback: "the world!".
And by biblical analysis and implementation of 2 Timothy 2:15 it does limit itself to the elect, scattered around the world.
BTW, to the Jewish mind, through whom the Holy Spirit had written that passage, the term world carried a whole new concept of salvation; when John saw that God not only loved the Jews, but also Gentiles, that was the crescendo of John 3:16 in using the word world, that is, that God also loves the world, not just the Jews. That is the magnificence of that passage that took the Jew aback: "the world!".
And by biblical analysis and implementation of 2 Timothy 2:15 it does limit itself to the elect, scattered around the world.
I read the interpretation of verses from both sides and can see how both find evidence to believe want they want to believe.
Example.. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."
- Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this is a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
- Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.
I can't believe that a Just, Loving, and Holy God can love some (the elect) and not love the rest. This teaching is not in line with the Bible because the Bible tells me that God wants all to be saved and God is Just.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I know you'll say i've twisted it or don't understand it rightly, but this (below) is what Calvinism is telling me. (just being honest.)
If in fact Calvinism were God's actual plan, than before the foundation of the world He elected some to be saved the ELECT, and some to remain lost, then the list is complete and nothing you or I will change that, it is His Will, His List, and His Plan, (Done and finished). Thus, there is no need for church, no need for witnessing, no need for trying to live a righteous life at all, simply go through life and live the way you want and IF you are on the list, you will be saved somehow, someway, because you are the ELECT. Finished ...
But if Arminianism were God's actual plan then there is definitely a need to carry out Jesus' command in Matthew 28 to teach and baptist in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because unless a free will soul can be convinced of salvation they will be lost. Moreover, then John 3:16 is not made a lie but Truth in that the offer of salvation is for the whole world that "whosoever" (not elect only) can be saved and thus there is a need for the church, witnessing, and trying to live a life that points to Jesus, because the price was payed for all souls.
You said it - God is Just as well as the other attributes. The reason He does not love each and all in the same manner as far as showing His mercy is because He exercises justice. Those who receive His justice have no love for God at all. God is glorified in many ways, one way is in His justice that He Sovereignly can exercise upon those whom He wills.
What you are asserting is that God must love each and every single person to the same extent and that all must receive the same exact treatment or God is not "fair." But that is a logical fallacy and profound misunderstanding of "fairness". No one wants God to be fair with them, because to be fair means to be just, or, they simply do not understand what they're saying.
To me...the election can be broken down to this simple truth.....
Before God cast down the world he chose to receive/chose (elect) all who would come to him in Christ......the fairness of God can be seen in...
1. The way is open to all who will believe
2. Christ has paid the entire sin debt of the world which allows for point 1
3. The statement about the savor of all men, especially those that believe allows for point 1
4. Creation testifies to ALL which allows for point 1
5. Christ gave himself for ALL which allows for point 1
6. He is a ransom for ALL which allows for point 1
7. Whosoever believes is applicable unto ALL and allows for point 1
Proof in the pudding....
Matthew 22:14-->"For many are called, but few are chosen." This can fit point 1 as well.
Some might argue....but God did not call ALL.........and my reply....
a. God knows the choice every man would make concerning his SON and FAITH
b. Regardless of who is called and chosen God can say I have done everything possible except believe for you
c. God is completely fair and right in NOT calling the ones whom he knows will reject and not believe
My view right or wrong..........
Before God cast down the world he chose to receive/chose (elect) all who would come to him in Christ......the fairness of God can be seen in...
1. The way is open to all who will believe
2. Christ has paid the entire sin debt of the world which allows for point 1
3. The statement about the savor of all men, especially those that believe allows for point 1
4. Creation testifies to ALL which allows for point 1
5. Christ gave himself for ALL which allows for point 1
6. He is a ransom for ALL which allows for point 1
7. Whosoever believes is applicable unto ALL and allows for point 1
Proof in the pudding....
Matthew 22:14-->"For many are called, but few are chosen." This can fit point 1 as well.
Some might argue....but God did not call ALL.........and my reply....
a. God knows the choice every man would make concerning his SON and FAITH
b. Regardless of who is called and chosen God can say I have done everything possible except believe for you
c. God is completely fair and right in NOT calling the ones whom he knows will reject and not believe
My view right or wrong..........
D
I'd rather be unmannerly than deceiving as you have been. You pose as meek and mild, and prove, post after post you are neither. "Manners?" Manners really isn't inviting someone over to your house to mock them for their stupidity. And yet that is what you do every single time when you say you want to be a Calvinist just to gather the Calvinists around to mock them.
Exactly why I'm no lady. I don't put up a false sense of who I am to set traps for anyone who buys it, like you do.
I'm calling a spade a spade. This is what I do.
Ignore me? Great. It doesn't stop me from pointing out your mask to others, so they don't fall for the trap.
Exactly why I'm no lady. I don't put up a false sense of who I am to set traps for anyone who buys it, like you do.
I'm calling a spade a spade. This is what I do.
Ignore me? Great. It doesn't stop me from pointing out your mask to others, so they don't fall for the trap.
D
You got it -- surrendering!
We didn't get freeman status after we we bought. We were BOUGHT! Not to be released. To serve!
[h=1]Matthew 6:24English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][FONT="]24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[a][/FONT]
[FONT="][h=4]Footnotes:[/h]
And Jesus works through you, because you still aren't able to overcome! You weren't able to overcome, you aren't able to overcome, you won't ever be able to overcome, until Jesus glorifies us. HE is the change, not you!
We didn't get freeman status after we we bought. We were BOUGHT! Not to be released. To serve!
[h=1]Matthew 6:24English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][FONT="]24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.[a][/FONT]
[FONT="][h=4]Footnotes:[/h]
- Matthew 6:24 Greek mammon, a Semitic word for money or possessions
And Jesus works through you, because you still aren't able to overcome! You weren't able to overcome, you aren't able to overcome, you won't ever be able to overcome, until Jesus glorifies us. HE is the change, not you!
D
Remember the day you were saved? Many claim they "chose God," and yet I've never heard anyone tell me their pros and cons list. (There are cons to being saved. It really does intrude on our selfish desires. ) Remember that day you were saved? Could you resist that grace God slathered you with? Can you resist it now?
) Remember that day you were saved? Could you resist that grace God slathered you with? Can you resist it now?
Remember the day you were saved? Many claim they "chose God," and yet I've never heard anyone tell me their pros and cons list. (There are cons to being saved. It really does intrude on our selfish desires. ) Remember that day you were saved? Could you resist that grace God slathered you with? Can you resist it now?
) Remember that day you were saved? Could you resist that grace God slathered you with? Can you resist it now?
Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.......
The rich young ruler walked away sorrowful......
I see what the problem is here - it has to do with a misunderstanding of irresistible grace. You're taking it at face value and are believing it means none can resist God. Then Scripture is used to "prove it to be false", but it is all a straw man because that is not what it teaches. His grace is irresistible to the elect, those He has chosen; "All that the Father has given me will come to me..." John 6:37.
Just think about it for a second; if IG were really that easy to refute it would have been thrown out by all sides, thus it must mean something different altogether, and it does.
Many people think incorrectly about what irresistible grace entails and they come up with a faulty understanding with a faulty response. So, to reiterate, it is that His grace is irresistible to the elect, that is, it will win them as it is designed to do. It doesn't then mean that it cannot be resisted to any extent.
Just think about it for a second; if IG were really that easy to refute it would have been thrown out by all sides, thus it must mean something different altogether, and it does.
Many people think incorrectly about what irresistible grace entails and they come up with a faulty understanding with a faulty response. So, to reiterate, it is that His grace is irresistible to the elect, that is, it will win them as it is designed to do. It doesn't then mean that it cannot be resisted to any extent.
D
I can't remember if I told you, but I accepted "Calvinism" before I even knew who John Calvin was. In fact, I've never read much more than quotes from him.
I told my Arminian pastor what I was seeing in Scripture after reading the book of Romans about 10 times. He told me what I was talking about was Calvinism then started telling me about Calvin burning Servetus (not totally true..the Geneva Council executed him and Calvin wanted to behead him)
I left the church not too long after that. He wanted me to be part of the evangelizing team, and I started meeting with them, but I didn't feel comfortable bringing people to a church that taught against eternal security. I figured, why should I stay somewhere that taught something I thought was harmful to new believers? So, I left.
I told my Arminian pastor what I was seeing in Scripture after reading the book of Romans about 10 times. He told me what I was talking about was Calvinism then started telling me about Calvin burning Servetus (not totally true..the Geneva Council executed him and Calvin wanted to behead him)
I left the church not too long after that. He wanted me to be part of the evangelizing team, and I started meeting with them, but I didn't feel comfortable bringing people to a church that taught against eternal security. I figured, why should I stay somewhere that taught something I thought was harmful to new believers? So, I left.
Ends up "classic study books" were all written by "Calvinists." (The unclassical just wing stuff, so don't feel a need to study, nor write books, unless the purpose of writing a book is to make money in the self-help section.) And Ern came up to preach one weekend and made the mistake of including a syllabus of his favorite books when he did.
Wellll, right about that time, the elders of the church told hubby that they thought he was called to be a teacher. Truly freaked him out because he felt totally unqualified to teach. He knew very little about the Bible other than he kept reading it, so he took Ern's list to the main library of the Philadelphia Library and spent an afternoon studying in their restricted section. (Where the reference books are kept. Restricted only in that they are reference books, so can't be taken out to borrow.)
Hubby is a voracious reader and absolutely loves to study the Bible, so he covered about half of Ern's list in the following decade. (And Ern's list included volume sets, so that was a LOT of reading.) And somewhere in all that we kind of slipped out of that church. Well, we tried to slip out. Still love the people, but tended to leave after worship and before the sermon, because the sermon was going to be winged-nothingness. Ends up that offended someone enough to tell us that she didn't like us doing that, so that was the last time we went into that church.
We didn't leave the church. We left a church. And then joined a church we were more comfortable with. (One that teaches Bible verse by verse.)
What did you do after you left a church?
D
It's too bad that Calvin didn't keep his tulips sealed...
"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son"
"For God so loved the elect that he gave his only begotten Son"
D
And then there is the original verse in context that says the same thing.
John 3:
[FONT="]16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]
John 3:
[FONT="]16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”[/FONT]
D
But, dagnabit! You will spend hours and hours, days and days, defending armineans versions to prove you are right, despite being clueless as to even what Calvinists believe. (Or, simply intentionally lying about it. Haven't made up my mind which way you're choosing.) Because, yo! "Free will" IS your gospel!
Hypocrite much?
Hypocrite much?
D
I don't entirely agree with your view, however, I truly appreciate the fact that you aren't trying to shove your view down everyone else's throat, like the very purpose for this thread has been. Thank you for that.
As for how I disagree? Doesn't really matter, since getting this exactly right doesn't affect salvation, or we'd all be doomed.
As for how I disagree? Doesn't really matter, since getting this exactly right doesn't affect salvation, or we'd all be doomed.
D
Well, watching people reject it is par for the course. We all rejected it. We love the darkness to hide our sins!
John 3:
[FONT="]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
[/FONT]
And yet, when that light hits -- when the LORD hits? Poof! Amazing! Suddenly we can't even remember why we preferred that darkness quite as much. The Light! The holy, wonderful, loving Light! We are forever graced by that Light!
We all hid from it, and yet God carried out whom he would chose. And it is truly irresistible.
John 3:
[FONT="]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
[/FONT]
And yet, when that light hits -- when the LORD hits? Poof! Amazing! Suddenly we can't even remember why we preferred that darkness quite as much. The Light! The holy, wonderful, loving Light! We are forever graced by that Light!
We all hid from it, and yet God carried out whom he would chose. And it is truly irresistible.