Calvinism Refuted
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B
It is interesting how they show rom 9:18-23 but forget verse 15! For this was under the old law. And if salvation has not come to all people,why does Titus 2:11 say that it does,and since this is so,then man must be held accountable to believe! rom 10:9-10
God does not, nor is it possible for him to believe for us, for if he did do that,then his favor for all, not just some would come into question!( acts 10:34) God's sovereignty is based upon his very own Word!( psalm 138:2) which gives him power, For without his word, we as his believers have no power through him.( luke 10:19)
For an example of this please check out (Matt 4:1-11) 3 times Jesus says it is written,Jesus needed his own word as well! So do we! The difference between the two laws is, the old law is always about doing,the new law is always about receiving what Jesus has already done,so if we are praying for a healing, we are asking Jesus to do something he has already done!
Rather, thank the Lord for the healing he has already provided!!( 1 peter 2:24) You will sure find a difference in results!!I sure have! Stay always thankful!!( 1 thess 5:18) Jesus has rested,let us follow him in that rest!( luke 10:38-42) Jesus sure is resting!( heb 1:3)blessing all!
God does not, nor is it possible for him to believe for us, for if he did do that,then his favor for all, not just some would come into question!( acts 10:34) God's sovereignty is based upon his very own Word!( psalm 138:2) which gives him power, For without his word, we as his believers have no power through him.( luke 10:19)
For an example of this please check out (Matt 4:1-11) 3 times Jesus says it is written,Jesus needed his own word as well! So do we! The difference between the two laws is, the old law is always about doing,the new law is always about receiving what Jesus has already done,so if we are praying for a healing, we are asking Jesus to do something he has already done!
Rather, thank the Lord for the healing he has already provided!!( 1 peter 2:24) You will sure find a difference in results!!I sure have! Stay always thankful!!( 1 thess 5:18) Jesus has rested,let us follow him in that rest!( luke 10:38-42) Jesus sure is resting!( heb 1:3)blessing all!
The law of Moses was given at Sinai's unapproachable mount. The Law of Christ was put into effect through angles on the temple's portico at Jerusalem at Pentecost. Isa. 2:3, Micah 4:2. The law of Moses by design kept everyone out of God's kingdom. The Law of Christ, however, only lets those who have the faith to obey it into God's kingdom.
Well, Jonz, along you come again.
Can we agree that this thread is not heading toward any settlement of the question as to how true or false Calvinism is?
As to Law of Christ vs Law of Moses,
there are dispensational commandments in the Bible, like that to Noah to build an ark -- commandments for individuals or groups for certain temporary periods of time. Then there are universal commands, always in force like Love God and Love Neighbor as self. These 2 master commandments are both in the Law of Moses and in the scripture addressed to the Church (the epistles) -- also part of "the teachings of Jesus" (who also commanded perfection like that of the Father in the Sermon on the Mt.)
Let me suggest something on considering the commandments: The arguments in the NT about law or commandments and how futile they are for salvation or living the Christian life, do not depend on dispensation -- whether they are part of Moses' law, part of the teachings of Jesus in the gospels, or part of the apostles' teaching in the epistles. Check them out and affirm or deny this. Those arguments are based upon the fact that men don't do God's commands and never will meet any commandment-paradigm. The commandments bring condemnation. They can bring us to the Savior by teaching us how depraved we are, and how we must have a Savior. Romans 1 remains true regardless of dispensation, the exposition of the depravity of man.
A consideration of God's commandments and our disobedience should lead us to cry out,
God be merciful to me a sinner.
For by grace you have been saved [if saved], through faith,
and that not of yourself,
not of works lest anyone should boast.
Can we agree that this thread is not heading toward any settlement of the question as to how true or false Calvinism is?
As to Law of Christ vs Law of Moses,
there are dispensational commandments in the Bible, like that to Noah to build an ark -- commandments for individuals or groups for certain temporary periods of time. Then there are universal commands, always in force like Love God and Love Neighbor as self. These 2 master commandments are both in the Law of Moses and in the scripture addressed to the Church (the epistles) -- also part of "the teachings of Jesus" (who also commanded perfection like that of the Father in the Sermon on the Mt.)
Let me suggest something on considering the commandments: The arguments in the NT about law or commandments and how futile they are for salvation or living the Christian life, do not depend on dispensation -- whether they are part of Moses' law, part of the teachings of Jesus in the gospels, or part of the apostles' teaching in the epistles. Check them out and affirm or deny this. Those arguments are based upon the fact that men don't do God's commands and never will meet any commandment-paradigm. The commandments bring condemnation. They can bring us to the Savior by teaching us how depraved we are, and how we must have a Savior. Romans 1 remains true regardless of dispensation, the exposition of the depravity of man.
A consideration of God's commandments and our disobedience should lead us to cry out,
God be merciful to me a sinner.
For by grace you have been saved [if saved], through faith,
and that not of yourself,
not of works lest anyone should boast.
Well, Jonz,
Your saying it doesn't prove it.
Now let me add to what I just posted to you recently, how the arguments on the futility of the law/commandments and the danger of the law/commandments (as destructive to Christian life) do not depend upon dispensation. The arguments are valid for the Law of Moses, the Sayings of Jesus, and the commandments to the Church in the Epistles. Moreover, the same 2 Master Commandments are supreme over all dispensational commands, and non-dispensational commands.
Take in Romans 7 where the 10th commandment appears, Thou shalt not covet or Thou shalt not lust (same thing; epithymia). Romans 7 has the Christian freed from the law by death; the Christian has died on the cross with Christ. So then we have freed Christian sailing along, on moonlight bay. But then a law monkey-wrench was tossed into his life.
I was alive apart from the law once,
but when the commandment came,
sin revived and I died. The the carnal state ensures, "I am carnal, sold under sin."
The commandment mentioned is lust (10th commandment).
The result of this commandment was that He began lusting!
It is like a sign posted, "Don't spit here." Try that to see some results.
At any rate, try this POV on for size on passages which bad-mouth keeping the law or commandments for the purpose of being saved or as a basis of living the Christian life (having begun by grace through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit; then trying to live the Christian life on a commandment-basis -- Galatians 3).
At any rate, I recommend to your consideration that the problem with commandment/law keeping as a basis of the Christians life (instead of the outcome) has nothing to do with which set of commandments is meant.
And now that we have solved Calvinism and tangential issues, we can go on with life!
Your saying it doesn't prove it.
Now let me add to what I just posted to you recently, how the arguments on the futility of the law/commandments and the danger of the law/commandments (as destructive to Christian life) do not depend upon dispensation. The arguments are valid for the Law of Moses, the Sayings of Jesus, and the commandments to the Church in the Epistles. Moreover, the same 2 Master Commandments are supreme over all dispensational commands, and non-dispensational commands.
Take in Romans 7 where the 10th commandment appears, Thou shalt not covet or Thou shalt not lust (same thing; epithymia). Romans 7 has the Christian freed from the law by death; the Christian has died on the cross with Christ. So then we have freed Christian sailing along, on moonlight bay. But then a law monkey-wrench was tossed into his life.
I was alive apart from the law once,
but when the commandment came,
sin revived and I died. The the carnal state ensures, "I am carnal, sold under sin."
The commandment mentioned is lust (10th commandment).
The result of this commandment was that He began lusting!
It is like a sign posted, "Don't spit here." Try that to see some results.
At any rate, try this POV on for size on passages which bad-mouth keeping the law or commandments for the purpose of being saved or as a basis of living the Christian life (having begun by grace through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit; then trying to live the Christian life on a commandment-basis -- Galatians 3).
At any rate, I recommend to your consideration that the problem with commandment/law keeping as a basis of the Christians life (instead of the outcome) has nothing to do with which set of commandments is meant.
And now that we have solved Calvinism and tangential issues, we can go on with life!
Galatians 3:1-5 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
F
The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs:
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four-point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement in unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect.
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; and 2 Peter 2:1.
The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Unlimited Atonement cannot possibly be true because, if Jesus died for the sins of every person, then whether or not His death is applicable to an individual depends on whether or not that person “accepts” Christ. But as we have seen from the above description of Total Depravity, man in his natural state has no capacity whatsoever to choose God, nor does he want to. In addition, if Unlimited Atonement is true, then hell is full of people for whom Christ died. He shed His blood in vain for them. To the five-point Calvinist, this is unthinkable. (S. Michael Houdmann)
Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four-point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – election is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement in unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect.
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; and 2 Peter 2:1.
The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Unlimited Atonement cannot possibly be true because, if Jesus died for the sins of every person, then whether or not His death is applicable to an individual depends on whether or not that person “accepts” Christ. But as we have seen from the above description of Total Depravity, man in his natural state has no capacity whatsoever to choose God, nor does he want to. In addition, if Unlimited Atonement is true, then hell is full of people for whom Christ died. He shed His blood in vain for them. To the five-point Calvinist, this is unthinkable. (S. Michael Houdmann)
Greetings Stephen.
Now let me suggest that you carefully consider all the passages which are negative on law-keeping or commandment-keeping as either a means of salvation or of living the Christian life. See if you can agree with me that the negativity has nothing to do with which set of God's commandments are in view (Moses' Law, Sayings of Jesus, directions given to the Church in the epistles) -- all 3 being governed by the Master 2 commandments to Love God and Love Neighbor. The negativity is about us human beings who do not keep the commands, regardless of which set they are. The commandments condemn us in our depravity, they tempt to self-righteousness since the necessity of keeping them motivates the false claim that we do, they rouse the very behavior they prohibit (see Rom 7 on lust; don't spit here); but they should drive us in despair to find a Savior: God be Merciful to me a sinner.
Rom 7 "I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting/lusting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet/lust: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting/lusting: for apart from the law sin is dead.
The command vs lust is in all 3 sets of commands; it is in fact a universal prohibition that has no relationship to dispensation: It is in the Law of Moses, the Sayings of Jesus, and the epistles to the Church.
I suggest that you consider all such passages to see if you can convince yourself that the folly of law-based-righteousness, has nothing to do with which set of God's laws are meant.
Now let me suggest that you carefully consider all the passages which are negative on law-keeping or commandment-keeping as either a means of salvation or of living the Christian life. See if you can agree with me that the negativity has nothing to do with which set of God's commandments are in view (Moses' Law, Sayings of Jesus, directions given to the Church in the epistles) -- all 3 being governed by the Master 2 commandments to Love God and Love Neighbor. The negativity is about us human beings who do not keep the commands, regardless of which set they are. The commandments condemn us in our depravity, they tempt to self-righteousness since the necessity of keeping them motivates the false claim that we do, they rouse the very behavior they prohibit (see Rom 7 on lust; don't spit here); but they should drive us in despair to find a Savior: God be Merciful to me a sinner.
Rom 7 "I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting/lusting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet/lust: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting/lusting: for apart from the law sin is dead.
The command vs lust is in all 3 sets of commands; it is in fact a universal prohibition that has no relationship to dispensation: It is in the Law of Moses, the Sayings of Jesus, and the epistles to the Church.
I suggest that you consider all such passages to see if you can convince yourself that the folly of law-based-righteousness, has nothing to do with which set of God's laws are meant.
Well Atwood parenthetically I think that if the top of your head were to be sawed open only the growth rings of Ebony, probably the hardest wood there is, would be observable. He says "very few ever find it" and "make EVERY effort to enter by it" does he not? Concisely He points out two major problems with your conjecture of salvation. One is many many more than a few think as you do. Two is "I don't hav'ta obey no law to git saved."
J. Oliver Buswell thought that the debate about limited vs unlimited atonement was a phony argument, as both sides agreed that
1) Christ's death was sufficient payment for all men's sins;
2) Christ's death is only efficient in saving the elect [or those who believe].
Romans 6 implies that the believer in Christ (by Baptism "into Christ") had his Old Man co-cruficied when Christ died on the cross. If this co-crucifixion is effected by persons being in the Body of Christ (the Church), then there is a limited aspect of the atonement. If this into-Christ baptism can only be said of believers, then the doctrinal result would be at least a 1/2 point to the U point. How about a 4 1/2 point Calvinist? who believes that while Christ in substitution died for all, only the Church gets this co-crucifixion of Old Man in this life, Christians getting something besides substitution, namely inclusion in the crucifixion (I have been crucified with Christ - Gal 2) by the Christian incorporation into the Body of Christ.
1) Christ's death was sufficient payment for all men's sins;
2) Christ's death is only efficient in saving the elect [or those who believe].
Romans 6 implies that the believer in Christ (by Baptism "into Christ") had his Old Man co-cruficied when Christ died on the cross. If this co-crucifixion is effected by persons being in the Body of Christ (the Church), then there is a limited aspect of the atonement. If this into-Christ baptism can only be said of believers, then the doctrinal result would be at least a 1/2 point to the U point. How about a 4 1/2 point Calvinist? who believes that while Christ in substitution died for all, only the Church gets this co-crucifixion of Old Man in this life, Christians getting something besides substitution, namely inclusion in the crucifixion (I have been crucified with Christ - Gal 2) by the Christian incorporation into the Body of Christ.
Well Jonz,
Consider all the scripture on the negativity of law/commandment keeping as a means of salvation and as a way to live the Christian life. Draw your own conclusions.
At any rate,
For by grace you have been saved, through faith;
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.
Consider all the scripture on the negativity of law/commandment keeping as a means of salvation and as a way to live the Christian life. Draw your own conclusions.
At any rate,
For by grace you have been saved, through faith;
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.
Greetings crossnote.
If one carefully reads this and other passages, it should be evident that the argument of Galatians really doesn't depend upon which set of commandments is meant. No set of commandments / no law brings salvation or can be a successful basis of the Christian life. There is a great difference between the effective method of an undertaking and the result or outcome.
In your scripture it is so clear that it is folly to change method from initial salvation to living the Christian life. In neither case will mere gritting your teeth and being determined to do God's commandments bring that result. Romans 7 illustrates the folly of that approach.
We began salvation by trusting the Lord Jesus and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The Christian life that follows is lived on the same basis. We hear the promises of God and believe them. We are strengthened in the inner man by God's Spirit; thus we have faith in Christ, Christ dwells then in the center of our beings (heart), we know the love of Christ and are filled to all the fullness of God (Eph 3). Then we follow God's commands in expression of our love for Him.
We may not put the cart before the horse.
If one carefully reads this and other passages, it should be evident that the argument of Galatians really doesn't depend upon which set of commandments is meant. No set of commandments / no law brings salvation or can be a successful basis of the Christian life. There is a great difference between the effective method of an undertaking and the result or outcome.
In your scripture it is so clear that it is folly to change method from initial salvation to living the Christian life. In neither case will mere gritting your teeth and being determined to do God's commandments bring that result. Romans 7 illustrates the folly of that approach.
We began salvation by trusting the Lord Jesus and being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The Christian life that follows is lived on the same basis. We hear the promises of God and believe them. We are strengthened in the inner man by God's Spirit; thus we have faith in Christ, Christ dwells then in the center of our beings (heart), we know the love of Christ and are filled to all the fullness of God (Eph 3). Then we follow God's commands in expression of our love for Him.
We may not put the cart before the horse.
It seems as if something else here benefits in the plan of redemption in it's freedom from bondage...
Romans 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
I suppose creation is part of that U? Care to comment?
Romans 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
I suppose creation is part of that U? Care to comment?
Oh! Atwood I am so sorry I made a mistake. If the saw surgery were done it will not be Ebony we'll find rather it is granite.
Scripture does not argue against scripture.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, rather it is those who have sense enough to obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 That apostle is not referencing the Sinai code.
Scripture does not argue against scripture.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, rather it is those who have sense enough to obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 That apostle is not referencing the Sinai code.
Atwood is contesting, and I suppose you also, the validity of Rom. 2:13. "have sense enough" is relative to his unbelief in regard to what that statement clearly states. Probably most others here see the absurdity of Atwood's countering an apostle's statement with a statement made by the same apostle. I guess that you missed the absurdness of what Atwood used for a counter, perhaps. The text of what I quoted is from NIV 1973-1984. Your quote from NIV_KJV is not inconsistent with NIV 1973-1985.
B
cxjonz Not universal for all?? Where does the Word say that bro?? What is true is the very same thing that is true to the end of the law itself.Rom 10:4! Providing of course we believe this!! The law of Christ is fulfilled in this gal 6:2-5 While it is very true Christ chose us, ( john 15:16)it is also very true you have a right to join him or not.
If you were selected to become a manager you have the right to decline this as well. The value Christ puts upon us, is why he came as a man. Why would he select some and hold others in contempt? Defeats his purpose in the first place. For God so loved the world,who does he not love?
To place Jesus in a bottle is to limit his ability and glory! ( luke 1:37) And for us to judge who is worthy and who is not, is also forbidden.( rom 2:1-4!! verse 4!) To say one cannot repent because God has not chosen him or her,is to say you know the mind of God?
I am just glad Jesus is upon the throne and not any of us! All, means all to me, all is not limited by adding another word to it bro. I do not say this to anger you,i say this because truth in love has action. I do not sharply rebuke an older brother!( 1 tim 5:1) I am looking only to inspire and reproof!( 2 tim 3:14-17) blessing bro!
If you were selected to become a manager you have the right to decline this as well. The value Christ puts upon us, is why he came as a man. Why would he select some and hold others in contempt? Defeats his purpose in the first place. For God so loved the world,who does he not love?
To place Jesus in a bottle is to limit his ability and glory! ( luke 1:37) And for us to judge who is worthy and who is not, is also forbidden.( rom 2:1-4!! verse 4!) To say one cannot repent because God has not chosen him or her,is to say you know the mind of God?
I am just glad Jesus is upon the throne and not any of us! All, means all to me, all is not limited by adding another word to it bro. I do not say this to anger you,i say this because truth in love has action. I do not sharply rebuke an older brother!( 1 tim 5:1) I am looking only to inspire and reproof!( 2 tim 3:14-17) blessing bro!